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You can find plenty of discussions on that paper here. I read it, but don't remember it. I'm sure it's fine and its conclusion biblically supported. But I'm unimpressed. That it was controversial speaks volumes. That anyone would need a theological paper to arrive at an ethical or moral conclusion about adultery speaks libraries.

It's so true - Mike Bickle was the worst of them. If you listen to his link above, it sounds like he's doing stand-up comedy when he talks about his visit to heaven. What's even more sickening is that Bickle used his "golden chariot" prop from his story to help groom a 19-year-old female into having an affair with him by prophesying she would one day ride with him in it. I realize I have gotten far off the topic of this thread but William Barlow and his parents were leaders in twi when John Shoenheit's paper on adultery was covertly being circulated. I wonder if any of his pages of questions were about twi's stance on adultery since the paper got John fired for writing it. twi actually threatened the corps to not read it. Some here might have experienced this. So much for asking questions.

Ah, hence the word "trip" in your post. I haven't heard anything so far about drug use with these guys but adultery and/or CSA was committed by all of them except Rich Joyner (as far as what's been reported). However, he and his church has recently been named in lawsuits for turning a blind eye to sexual grooming and assaults by a former youth group leader volunteer. The man went on to plead guilty to 10 counts to sexual conduct with a minor and assault and battery and was sentence to nine years in prison.

My point is that profound events of disillusionment are not and cannot be so flippantly recounted. One may feel an urgency or excitement about retelling an experience, but ultimately realize any attempt is futile. Words become embarrassingly insufficient. This is true for the religious/mystical experience, psychedelic trip and the astronaut's spacewalk.

Dimethyltryptamine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

Good point. DNR (that one I know) - your condition was even more serious than what I had thought before. So, so thankful you are still here Waysider.

My mind has gone in search of what DMT means in the Land of Acronyms and Text Abbreviations. Help bring in back home to me please. Thanx Also, your highlighted line above - a wise person I know once told me "the one claiming to speak for God is surely the one who does not."

I listened to the video below again and I think it's all about being honest with yourself like I mentioned to Raf. This One Failed Promise Should Stop Christians In Their Tracks! "And The Sick Will Be Made Well" On one hand, you have the apologist saying: “Why does God heal some and why he doesn’t heal others is God’s sovereign will his choice. We might not understand. The question is are we going to trust him? So please don’t think that if you’ve asked God and he hasn’t healed you, it’s necessarily because you have a weak or lack of faith. That’s bad theology.” On the other hand, you have Brandon calling God on not keeping his promise. Which of the two ways is the most honest? God gives specific instructions for what to do when you’re sick (James 5:13-15) - if you do this, you will be healed. So, when God does not heal you after you've followed the instructions, it rightfully becomes an issue of God's trustworthiness. Like with any human who regularly does not follow through on their word, it is rational to lose trust in that person. But with God, the fallacy of special pleading gets applied (aka selective adherence when someone claims an exception to a general principle or rule without sufficient justification). Is this being honest? Shame also enters the picture when you're told (however gently) "how dare you question God?" God's ways are not man's ways. Just keep trying and trusting. But where is the honesty in that when you compare it to what James clearly says? Is it being honest to believe without question in salvation that is prescribed in Romans 10:9-10 but turn around and not hold God to what he prescribed about healing in James 5:13-15? There is no difference - they are both clear promises. One can put all their faith in "the abstract, unverifiable and unfalsifiable" biblical claim of eternal life, and yet make excuses for every biblical claims of healing (see below) that is demonstrated not to work. How is this being honest? Is not the honest thing to say is that an untrustworthy God cannot be a real God? ********************* More verses in the video about healing: Psalm 41:3; Isaiah 38:5; Mark 6:13; Exodus 15:26; Psalm 30:2; Jeremiah 17:14 Verses in the video about what God says about asking for things: Matthew 7:7-8; Matthew 21:22; Mark 11:24 (faith the size of a mustard seed is all that’s needed – Matthew 17:20); John 14:13; 1 John 5:14

I identify with how honest you were wanting to be with yourself during that time. It fits in with what I heard in the video I mentioned above.

I was in a serious multi-vehicle accident a while back. I can remember where I was going, what the weather was like, the approximate time it happened and other general information. When you get to more specific details, like make, model, color of the other vehicles, what the other parties looked like, I draw a blank. I only know fine details from reading the accident report. So, excuse me for being skeptical when people offer up minute details. The only thing I remember clearly is looking up at someone asking if I have a DNR. Yeah, that detail sticks with me.

That could be it. Is there a lot of scientific-sounding pseudo-science with pretentious technical language describing devil spirits and how they manifest and work in the natural realm?

I tried watching that video with Chris Reed. Holy Shonta!! What a charlatan fraud! It’s interesting to me that these “spiritual” trips are so nonchalantly recounted with so much detail conveniently aligned with scripture, yet the DMT trip is indescribable as the most profound vision/experience of someone’s life. Those telling stories of these trips to “spiritual realms” are the ones who haven’t been there. I remain in awe of those who are in awe of these frauds.

The challenging counterfeit : Gasson, Raphael : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

By someone I meant you, Waysider. Do NOT dig that trash out. It could be one of those titles, but they aren’t ringing a bell. It might not have been published by ACP. It was heavily focused on the paranormal. My mind is exactly where I left it, probably next to my sunglasses and keys. Once I find it, I’ll remember. Unless someone ELSE remembers first.

Could it be Challenging Counterfeit or Angels Of Light? My copies, if I still have them, are probably buried in a box that's still waiting to be unpacked from my last move. Let's just say that finding them is not exactly high on my list of priorities at the moment. Yes, the mind is a terrible thing to lose. The same cannot be said of books filled with bullshonta.

Many self-proclaimed modern prophets, infected with the need for sensationalism, have given reports of out-of-body experiences, trips to heaven and hell, and face-to-face dialogues with angels, God and Jesus Christ. A few are Mike Bickle, Chris Reed, Todd Bentley and Bob Jones who are all close past or present associates of Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries and have all given detailed descriptions of their visiting heaven. Supernatural Story: Chris Reed Visits Library in Heaven Jesus took Todd Bentley to the Gates of Hades (Rick Joyner on stage with him) Mike Bickle: Heavenly Encounter Rick Joyner I find it interesting that in the past, preachers would preach scripture. Nowadays, for more and more preachers, the preaching of God's word comes through retelling their visits to heaven. Why is this becoming the norm for so many churches?

Mmmph I am reminded of that book on ectoplasm and other such phenomena that TWI used to “study.” Wasn’t it published by American Christian Press, but later victor distanced himself from it? Someone will know what I’m talking about. A mind is a terrible thing to lose - only so much room for bullshonta.

This is NOT a criticism. I am wondering, though, how much study you have given to the topic of NDEs and whether you use skeptical and critical thinking when reading the studies or while listening to people describe their experiences? The reason I'm asking is because I rarely did this when I was a Christian. However, during my deconversion and since then, I have learned the necessity for doing so. The important question to ask is how much does one care whether what they believe is actually true or not? Are NDEs simply a matter of interest for you or is it something you base important beliefs upon? ************* This is an example of what I mean. After seeing your post, I read Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality by Jeffrey Long, and I had some questions about a few things and decided to look into them. I checked and learned that he is a Christian who wrote God and the Afterlife which could mean that he has a biased perspective about NDEs. I also researched whether his work was peer reviewed and found two reviews of his popular book Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences . One was by Wendy Cousins and the other by J. Kenneth Arnette, both of whom have highly educated fields of study. Arnette makes a number of critiques, a few of them being: - a problem with Long's repeated use of the words "proof" and "the afterlife." "Proof" because Arnette claims, "At this point, the survival of consciousness cannot, through science, be established as a fact." "The afterlife" because "NDEs actually provide very little information about the nature of “the” afterlife, except perhaps for its initial appearance" and that the term “afterlife” is a loaded term, with much attached baggage and potentially a variety of interpretations." Arnette uses the term "survival of death.” - explains ways in which Long's methodology is problematic - that Long omits the research on "distressing NDEs" in his book (other than a mere mention of it and a referral to his website.) Arnette writes, "the likely result of Long’s detailed attention to pleasurable NDEs and virtual omission of attention to distressing ones is that readers come away with a simplistic impression of the range of possible experiences that might await them at death." I could go further by looking up information about Arnette and his support of the "reality, meaning, and implications of NDEs" since his credentials include his involvement with the "Transpersonal Institute for the Scientific Study of the Paranormal" - oh my!

And yet you are still here and haven't been banned, nor have I ever moderated your religious content except when it became explicitly political, as we explicitly articulated. Do you have ANY examples to the contrary?

It's very obvious even in mainstream media that 'leftie' leaning liberal journalists can be vicious, sarcastic and condescending at the best of times...

Wayne really nailed it for me when he Exergised John 3:16 and then went into the meanings of eternal, forever and ages...

Judy Garland Meet Me in St. Louis Mary Astor

This was the most expensive television show to produce at the time, costing over a million dollars to make each episode, which was one of the reasons it was canceled after only 13 episodes. The actor playing the titular character based his performance on William Shatner as Captain Kirk in Star Trek (1966) of which he is a big fan. A video game based on this series produced by Bug-Byte Software was released for the Commodore 64 platform in 1985. The titular character was a hologram, but no CGI was used on the show, just traditional animation and editing techniques. The star of the show was far less famous than his father. George

I remember when my sister was first diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease in 2007 and I had to explain to my mother that it was basically a death sentence (which, despite the existence of exceptions to the rule, it usually is). I asked for prayers, but not once did I ask for a prayer for healing. I said I refused to rule out a miracle, but everything I said and did was resigned to the reality of the diagnosis. I remember at some point saying the only thing I wanted to pray for was her comfort. But why should that have been? Why should I not have been expecting a miracle? In retrospect, I realize that my faith by that point had been shot to hell. Years of unanswered and underanswere prayers were taking their toll to such an extent that I was "moving the goalposts" as I prayed, making it all but impossible for God not to answer the prayer. So I didn't pray for healing. I prayed for peace and comfort. Because I could talk myself into thinking that prayer was answered, seeing as the only person who could contradict me... A good reason to become an atheist is the realization that you don't believe this stuff anymore, that your prayers are hitting the ceiling if you say them out loud, and going nowhere if you don't. When you realize the failure to answer prayers is better explained by His nonexistence than by your failure to believe, THAT is a good reason to become an atheist. In my opinion. [In case I'm not making it clear, I'm not blaming God for what happened to my sister. I'm realizing that by the time that happened, deep down, I had already stopped believing, even though I hadn't fully come to that realization and wouldn't until the week she died. What happened to my sister was not God's fault. I'm sure if he could have done something he would have].

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume the last two active moderators (at the time) had formed a "buddyship" after years being the last two active moderators. What I find interesting is calling Modgellan's integrity into question based on his (?) association with me,after failing to document a single case of biased moderating or unfair treatment of Christians. Also, I included Modgellan in my private message to show that I wasn't hiding anything.