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I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite. Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's. Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy. Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right. There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships. Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building. My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement. In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money. PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.

I have a lo shanta remark- In 1983, my local twig coordinator wrote out a birthday card for me from him and his wife Patty, and this is what it said- Love you now, love you later, love you like a lo shonta potato. LOLOLOL! I found out later that summer at the Rock that he had been blowing weed on the sly.

This thread is rapidly becoming one of my favorite! Wonderfully heartfelt, HONEST, and well-articulated firsthand experience, personal courage, and transparency for all to respect and enjoy. Thank you all. Keep it going!

I'm going to add a few cents of my own. Leah, you said earlier (at least I think it was you) that you were agnostic, except when you are angry. Then you're atheist. I'm going to suggest to you that you are neither. I speak as an atheist. If you are angry at God, then you believe in Him. And that's okay. You have questions. You are not satisfied with the answers you have received. You are entitled to those emotions. But atheism is not an angry position. It's letting go of anger. You can only be angry at God if you believe in Him. I am not angry at God. I am disappointed in certain people (not all) who claim to speak in his name. People who hate and concoct a God who magically hates the same people they do. You know the type. (That was funny). I guess what I am saying is, don;t lose faith out of anger. There are plenty of reasons to be atheist. Anger is not one of them. If you decide, out of calm reflection, that you do not believe in God, and you have questions about what to do next, talk to me. I've been through it. But if you are angry with Him, then atheism is not going to help you. Plenty of people here will be happy to help out, and you have people in real life. Best wishes. And by the way, I have no bad memories of your dad. The worst I've heard of him comes from credible witnesses. And I was not impressed with his performance at the 1989 Rock. But I was still grateful, many times, for when he tried to teach positive messages from the Bible. Helped me through some pretty tough times. Not trying to defend him, but wanted you to know that along with all you've heard from GSC, our collective impression of him is just a bit more nuanced than that.

Leah - welcome (again). You are brave to announce yourself here. Nobody holds anything against you or your siblings; you've all always been strictly off limits. In some respects you are "nobody special" here - we all escaped with greater or lesser damage. In other respects, you are "very special," because you really have been in the heart of the madness, and thus probably have much more to overcome. I hope there are some good times that you can recall with your Mom and Dad - though I don't doubt that there were hard times too. I recall your dad used to love to display your flute-playing ability at concerts and events. Do you and your children see either of your parents? Penworks can help you a lot, and can point you to a lot of material that might be balm to your soul (and your husband's). The book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" was like lifting the lid of TWI for me - I was in residence early 90s right after the "fog years," when things were tightening up - and I think things got worse after that. I thought the authors might have been TWI-escapees, but there isn't any connection at all. Learn to like yourself. To love yourself. Welcome to becoming YOU!

A message that has been said more than once and will likely be necessary again sometime. For the record, I have a belief system, but I don't need to label it... other than Deist. I still tell people IRL that I'm Christian, but I'm not really dogmatic in that regard. I do, however, zealously cleave to knowledge and understanding I have gained, especially as a result of experience (i.e. school of VERY hard knocks in some instances) and an attitude and desire for lifelong learning. I mention this now because a new member mentioned sometimes believing she's atheist and at other times agnostic. As far as I'm concerned, that's perfectly fine. Also, some people may wonder about why us old-timers still frequent GSC. Well, unless we were born in a twi family, we were drawn to twi in large part because it gave us a sense of belonging... for whatever reason. Well, setting aside how much I think I know about anything, I enjoy drawing insights into group behaviors (aka psychoanalyzing the groups). And that has opened doors for me other than regarding twi. That's basically how and why I started getting published in local newspaper editorial pages more than 25 years ago. Not that my insights are always "the" right ones, but that they have at least some legitimacy. Anyway, I got sidetracked (tangents, eh?). My main point in the previous paragraph is that I feel a strong sense of belonging to and with people at GSC. To Leah, I would say now that I think there's probably a great deal that you have going on that you don't struggle with. But I'm glad you are able to recognize the opportunity and need for working on or dealing with those things about which you do struggle now. I can only imagine the intensity of the psychic damage from having grown up in the situation you did. Many of us know how intense your father is or at least was. In addition to what I said last night, I want to emphasize the deep admiration I have for YOU and the course you have been choosing and are now on. I hope you're able to make music out of the rocks in the creek over which the water of your life is now passing. And can dance (now or eventually) to that music.

rest in peace skip

Nice post, I knew Joann, she was WOW in Lynchburg, VA..

Hi there! I'm sorry but they are divorced. Anne has remarried, and Ladd did too, but they recently divorced as well. Pray for Ladd-he's here in Aurora, Colorado. Bless you!!