Leaderboard

"Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so? In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right…." Frankly, Mike, I think that's as neat a description of part of your own M.O. as anyone's ever written. No matter what we post, you will construct some pretext to reject it, and never move from your position no matter what evidence or the truth says in any amounts. You can't tell the difference between steadfastness and stubbornness. As for me ever considering changing positions, I'm open to the possibility, and may actually do so- provided sufficient evidence is provided. I have proof of that, too- I've reversed positions on something as the direct result of a discussion(s) here. The more fundamental a thing you want me to consider, however, the more firepower you'll need to bring. I'm fairly confident you don't have it and never will, but I read and consider your posts anyway. One, I might be surprised, and two, there may be something useful in there even if it's posted by accident. But I'm a LOT more respectful of your posts than you are of mine, and I actually read them. My positions are secure enough to withstand some actual scrutiny, so I am not afraid to look things over. One of the easiest things to refute is the silly position you've manufactured for posters here. "“What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” The " anti-idol" thing is a term you made up, to name a concept you made up, which is an extreme caricature of other posters' positions. It's your favorite strawman. The idea that people here have "built their religious service faith" on posting here is fascinating. It's also irrelevant to anyone who's posted here so far. Nobody has claimed anything resembling that. In fact, it only resembles your position- the building of religious service faith on what you'd term an " idol" if it was someone else saying it. The rest of us have lives outside of here that are more important to us, including to our walks as Christians (those of us who ARE Christians.) As a whole, we're fine discussing all sorts of things about vpw, twi, etc, and we do whether or not you are here. We've even discussed positive things- I started a few of those threads myself- but according to your caricature of my thinking, I can't even consider doing that. We're not afraid of examining what we know, and learning more. I know that seems odd and foreign to you, but we're not thinking the same way you are- you're deliberately limiting the way you think, congratulating yourself for it as if it's a positive thing and a benefit to you, and imagining we're doing the same.

He does that sort of thing frequently. Ive noticed if anyone posts something that goes against what mike thinks wierwille said he does his best to try and flash past that particular posts with a flurry of other content besides the content he dislikes. So its not just WW who has noticed this behaviour. Ive started reposting what he wants buried once again so others can read along. Its obvious he is wanting to influence grease spot readers that PFAL is really of God and we are all wrong about wierwille.

That’s it! Stretched-Armstrong Coffee The coffee that goes the extra session

That’s why it is idolatry - it is based on an image and a feeling. Whenever the image gets broken down to component parts which exposes the illogic the response is to flee. This may even be subconscious.

I would truly hope that our Lord and Savior whose yoke is easy and burden is light will be able to sort out confusion like this. Otherwise what is the point? Jesus describes leading a little one astray as a situation where it would be better to carry a millstone around your neck. From my view we are gonna see a millstone cowboy parade with TWI leaders at Jesus Christs return.

Nice summary. If someone else said that about a church that had no connection to twi, past or present, they'd claim there was an error in their thinking. If one is in a group, and benefits accrue, there's no guarantee that any one thing about the group is the reason those benefits occur. As for actual benefits in twi, it's relatively easy to track how most of those happened, with a little effort. There was a negative correlation with HQ and Root locales, generally. In fact, people who blame the corps know that- but refuse to take a look at how the benefits occurred LOCALLY and not at HQ. There was talk ABOUT benefits at HQ, but people didn't visit there and come away with stories of visiting and deliverance, healing, etc. One poster here spoke about someone he knew who wanted to get up out of a wheelchair. They went to vpw HIMSELF and asked for prayer. vpw said they would get their deliverance if they took. pfal. Naturally, they took pfal. They left twi not long after that, because the promised deliverance never showed up. Guess they should have lived in some distant place where we don't have eyewitnesses- vpw's tales of healings always score highly there!

I had contact first with The Way. That led my mother into joining, then as I got older, my kids were exposed when young. My kids and I got out are fine and have no lasting effects, but my mother died still believing everything the cult told her to. I'm left to ponder if I will see her again when I get to heaven. *sigh*

I'd say they're making a cause and effect error. It's how superstition get started: a black cat crossed my path and I had bad luck, so the black cat must have caused my bad luck. There is no connection between the person's feelings in Twi and a supposed promise made decades ago.

You posted the contents and then buried them. When you brought them up again, you were asked to repost them- or even to link them- and you gave a long response that you didn't have time. You have time to go on for paragraphs or pages on how you don't have time, but the original subject seems to be too much. I think you're the only one who doesn't know what that means. So, I found it- it didn't take long- and posted it as a thread, making it easier to find. Several months later, it's like you're trying to say reposting it was your idea. As for why you'd want to refer to it without actually posting it or even linking it, that you did it is a matter of record, that's what you did. The question would not be, "Did you do it?" (you're trying to rewrite history again and say you didn't, and perhaps you've rewritten your memory of it successfully), but rather "WHY did you do it?" I can't guarantee your motives, I can only go by actions and results, and intent follows from there. With your ability to claim the contents without actually showing what they say, they retain a certain flexibility. It's the same as when you dislike how the Orange Book and yourself are at loggerheads- you really don't like it that this can be demonstrated. So, you make claims, imagine you have a shred of credibility left, and imagine that people might believe what you say are the contents. So, months after the thread's posted, you're fine giving out the link because the genie is already out of the bottle. So, you pretend that was your idea all along, post the links, and pretend you wanted that to begin with. As for how much time it would take, it's supposedly all in your records, and cutting-and-pasting would be a good 3 minutes, tops, regardless of post length. The famous "I don't have time" is such a transparent excuse by this point that I'd be amazed if it convinced ANYONE when you said it nowadays. There's talking around Scripture, and talking around pfal, but discussion of the actual content is scarce (that's when the "no time for that" pages start multiplying again.

One of my favorite TV shows growing up was The Outer Limits – and one of the most memorable episodes was The Outer Limits: Behold Eck! A two-dimensional alien, stranded in our three-dimensional world, inadvertently causes havoc in Los Angeles. Only a mild-mannered optician and his secretary have the power to help – it was pretty cool – if I remember correctly the optician fabricated a special lens for Eck to see the doorway to get back to his world. I’m not familiar with Flatland…Theologian Alister McGrath – in his Understanding the Trinity book (I think) used a similar thought experiment to ponder how we humans living if living only in 2 dimensions could relate to a being that lives in more dimensions. I drew upon that idea in a recent post - here - where I said: We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know! And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know! Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly. Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?" ~ ~ ~ ~ I also touched on alternate dimensions on a couple of other threads - here and here . ~ ~ ~ ~ Our physical space is observed to have three large spatial dimensions and, along with time, is a boundless 4-dimensional continuum known as space-time continuum . Theoretical physicists have come up with a number of concepts that incorporate extra physical measurements describing more dimensions – from 10 to 26 dimensions! This is fascinating to think about – how do we measure stuff? Science uses various methods to quantify matter, energy, and the passage of time (time being the 4th dimension) . In concepts and mathematics, scientists theorize there are other dimensions – but currently there is no way to evaluate by observation or experimentation if they truly exist. What criteria do we use for metaphysics ? ~ ~ ~ ~ The Logos – and some tidbits I picked up from studies of John 1 The Greeks had the concept of the Logos – which means two things – “word” and “reason”. “The Jew was entirely familiar with the all-powerful word of God. “God said, let there be light; and there was light” ( Genesis 1:3 ). The Greek was entirely familiar with the thought of reason. He looked at this world; he saw a magnificent and dependable order. Night and day came with unfailing regularity; the year kept its seasons in unvarying order; the stars and planets moved in their unaltering path; nature had unvarying laws. What produced this order? The Greek answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, is responsible for the majestic order of the world…What enables man to think, to reason and to know? Again he answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, dwelling within a man makes him a thinking rational being. Another big idea that Greeks had was the concept of two worlds. One of the worlds was the one in which we live – a world of mere shadows and copies and reflections of another realm. To the Greeks this other unseen realm was considered the real world. Plato (Athenian philosopher, approx. 423 to 348 BC) is most famous for The Theory of Forms which is a philosophical worldview that the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas – which are the non-physical essences of all things, of which objects and matter in the physical world are merely imitations. The great challenge to philosophy was how to connect to this unseen reality…how to get out of the shadows and into the eternal truths. source John 1 - Barclay's Daily Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org ~ ~ ~ ~ A recent development of humankind is virtual reality - the computer-generated simulation of a three-dimensional image or environment that can be interacted with in a seemingly real or physical way by a person using special electronic equipment, such as a helmet with a screen inside or gloves fitted with sensors…are we God’s virtual reality? Just kidding – but it makes me think of how a certain ‘reality’ is created. In the early years of my work career, I was involved in the building and remodeling industries. Building materials and manufacturing processes have come a long way since then. It's not just lumber, concrete, plastic, steel, alloys, composite materials – there’s also 3-D printing for an entire house! Saw it on TV - it must be real It's possible God could use alternate materials and methods for building other worlds – and the laws of physical science for those worlds…those alternate realities – would differ from ours…and just to define terms – for me anyway , if it’s anything that exists in a world created by God or by the creatures of God – that’s reality…Even if it’s other dimensions or other worlds that are undetectable to us – that’s an alternate reality – plain old reality for the residents of those worlds - and that means we are an alternate reality to them.