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Now this is just promoting someone else's agenda. Why bring Christianity into it? It doesn't need to be there, and it doesn't add anything, except to promote someone else's agenda. It's bringing one aspect of Christianity into an argument, without bringing the whole spectrum of Christianity into it - like our service to fellow men. Did not Christ himself lay aside his individuality? Phil 2:7 But [Christ] made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant... Doesn't sound like too much "individualism" there. ...the belief that it is desirable that men should be free to develop their own individual gifts and bents... Is this a "Christian belief"? (Or is Christian belief in the redemptive power of the resurrection, given to all who believe - not just to individuals, LOL?) Or is it taking the phrase "spiritual gifts" which are for the aid to the congregation, way out of context? So what's his agenda, the author of this quote? The road to the control of others is well-worn and is based on creating fear in, then dependence of, the "controllee." And it's been around as long as civilization. Wierwille probably learned the basics at the hands of his belt-wielding father, from reports elsewhere at the Cafe.

I have a slightly different take on this. I think all of us (or at least many of us) made them the expert by allowing them to tell us how to live our lives. I am not condoning the terrible things perpetrated by some of the leaders in TWI, but we did give allegiance. So, when I was processing out of TWI one of the things I spent a lot of time working on, was understanding what it was about me that made it so easy for them. In doing so, I gained a better understanding of myself and that part of my life.

Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.” Good question. There’s a mega-church here. It’s growing like crazy. IMO, they’re teaching a watered down gospel (Geisha, another good question – later, OK?). My earlier remark, “their teachings are sometimes inspired. That’s a testimony to Gods’ infinite grace; I’m so thankful,” was about churches like this one. In fact, the church is named “Christ Fellowship.” Here is an email I got recently from my wife, uh, oh, can’t find the dang thing – but the gist was she said this guy had delivered a great sermon in the midst of a great service. She had to say so because we both saw this guy as just a salesman the first time we saw him “teach.” Could have been more Word, she said, but his point was good, & made well. So, point is many outside the gate are coming into their gate, & many are being born again. All praise goes to God who, as always, is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. Yes, Sunesis, I think we are “out of the loop,” or should I rather say, we are out of the many loops that are presently presenting themselves as THE loop. Remember, I teach 11th grade English. Many of my believing students are quite active in the faith & ready to say so given the opportunity. I have many sanctions on what I can say in class, but they don’t, & I can certainly afford them the opportunity to speak. I can say the bible says so & so. I can even say what I believe – I just can’t say what I believe is the truth. You really can’t touch a piece of American Lit. that doesn’t have allusions or foundations in the bible – really, that’s an amazing reality. Believing students are amazed that I know & believe. They would be in my “fellowship” in a heartbeat if I were allowed to hold one on campus – which, of course, I’m not. So, yes, I think that we are outside of the many loops that God is using to take c/o his own. But, I don’t think that leaves us out of God’s loop. He has, generally, throughout history, worked more outside the gates than within. He has no more respect for man’s gates than he has respect of persons – none. As far as churches go, Geisha, I’ve been to quite a few over the years. Lately, I’ve been listening to Christ Fellowship, especially if my wife recommends it. OK, here’s the list. Christ Fellowship Old ex-Way grad from back in the day Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad Pentecostal Even been to some Way fellowships lately Christ Fellowship: Watered down – read above. Filled with many beautiful believers – how beautiful are the feet…, loving. Not only are they a mega-church, but they have a home fellowship contingent. They call them small groups. We went to one for quite a while – felt like God led us to this group.. It was very refreshing. I loved the way they all interacted – the Spirit was working among the group many times. I even took one of their “foundational classes.” The class was run by a very humble and Spirit inspired individual. But when I tried to approach him on the subject of the Spirit – specifically power in evidence, he was like a chameleon. Couldn’t get a straight answer from him. I KNEW the lady who ran the small fellowship was overflowing with Spirit, so one day I asked her about why it seemed like many of the people in the church were overflowing with spiritual power, but wouldn't admit it.. She admitted to speaking in tongues, and agreed with me that it seemed like quite a few of the people in the church did so also, and that there seemed to be an unspoken silencing on the whole subject. It was as weird to her as it was to me. Although she was more mature spiritually than what was taught in the church in many ways, she would never contradict church doctrine or teach anything not already “baptized” as OK by the church. Everything basically proceeded from that guy who wrote “Power for Abundant Living.” I guess they think that any talk of the specifics of the Spirit might scare away all the new people. All the hard corps “fundamentalist” churches term the church Laodicean. Old ex-Way grad from back in the day: Good teaching, but added stuff to the gospel. Stuff I had to do to be made whole. I guess the gospel isn’t sufficient for that purpose. Why do people have to always add to the gospel? Sure clue that their “gospel” is watered down. Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad: I’ll mention this guy’s name. It is Mike Brophy. I’ve joined a phone hook-up, & downloaded one of his classes off the internet. Very refreshing. The gospel was presented as complete, the redemptive work of Christ as sufficient for every need. I called him a while ago, & we spoke. In the course of the conversation, he asked me what I working in the Word. I hesitated to answer him honestly, because I had been working a couple of things that definitely contradict Way doctrine – things about the One Spirit, & I didn’t want to start with an argument, but I figured what the heck, & told him. Turns out he and others he works with had worked through all that some years back & come to the same realization. God is up to something. Pentecostal: Saw some beautiful believers there, & some nice prophecy, but they wanted our money and our commitment before they even got to know us. Sure clue you are engaging in a hierarchical power structure that has the One Body under wraps. That was it for me, but I kept going because my wife liked the fellowship & the praise worship. We hung out long enough to see that there were some very wicked witchcraft spirits that were governing the thing. Yet God blessed them where he could, as his manner is. Even been to some Way fellowships lately: These guys love me from way back – I brought a lot of healing to their lives. They would love me no matter what I did. Strange, but I presented the stuff to them that I brought up to Mike Brophy, & they were receptive – said they’ve been wondering about these things for years. They said we should put this stuff together in a presentable form & show it to the Way HQ – maybe it could be in the next advanced class. Ha, good luck on that one, but it is good to hang with them from time to time. They have matured so well spiritually. Does my heart good to see it. Their fellowships don’t really have any fellowship to them until the fellowship proper is over with though. As far as accountability, “Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability...... well....we know what can happen.” The word “accountability” scares me. I don’t know about you, but I was still with the way when they were micromanaging everyone’s’ life – all in the name of accountability, so we all know what can happen with that too. I’m thankful to have a few believers who know me & will speak the Word to me where I need it – I suppose that’s what you’re talking about really. I hope so. Anyway, Geisha, that brings us to present day. I am through looking for a church. I am through looking for anything on my own. I am looking to the God of all increase. He is up to something these days, & I am following the tracks. It is between my heart and his. And due to his big heart, my heart is growing bigger. He’ll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They’re changing me, & I’m changing them.