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I doubt it's right to say people "stuck it out" to be able to get the WoW pin, or anything else, really. I do think people stuck it out because they had made a commitment to do whatever they were doing, and wanted to see that through. TWI taught so much about commitment (mostly about commitment to the ministry that had taught you the word - gag) - about seeing things through that you'd started - about not quitting when the going got rough - and all of that is good stuff and great principles for life. However, the commitment had subtly become shifted from Godly commitment, to a commitment to TWI. And people became misdirected because TWI is so "in the face," so that they placed the wrong focus on the commitment. It's very liberating to understand that walking away from TWI is NOT walking away from God, and in leaving behind a God-denying organization, you may in fact be walking TOWARDS a better life with God.

I would just consider what the Apostle Paul said in Corinthians and elsewhere concerning those who left the church and lead others astray. Again, you can't control what I believe....if you really think that what you understand and believe is so much better....that is your right...and I respect your right to believe what you want. How many times or ways can I say that? Hey...start a church. Be an itinerant......if you have it all sewn up....and are sure you know what you are saying is the gospel.....truth. Go for it. Nothing more you have to learn about your faith or what we were caught up in. I think I will stick with "churchy". Hey, I admire the twisting it took to defend Tom's use of that as good....and that I shouldn't take it personally. LOL LET IT GO! PEOPLE ARE BEGGING FOR THE THREAD TO GET BACK ON TRACK!!!! DESPISE ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! Oh wait, you already did. And Chockfull, these guys we are discussing....what they did....was have an impact on the church....they set reforms in motion.....were somewhat influential in what we have today as contemporary Christian music......and set off a reaction that provides us today with really wonderful places of worship and church homes. It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they helped provide for us.

dmiller, I never knew him. I am probably a bit younger than you...... it was before my time in twi. It is great that people liked him. But, if you want me to form my opinion, based on what others say.....I can't and won't do that for you. Why would you ask me to? It doesn't mean I can't say.....he sounds like a nice guy. It sounds like people loved him. That is the best I have for you. :( Really, why does it matter what I think of him? Especially since I never knew him. I am sorry your friend is gone, it sounds like you loved him.....and I hope you cherish your memories of someone so important to you.

Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church? I am not the one sitting from a lofty perch raining blanket judgment down on the nameless, faceless of God's people by declaring them political and shallow.....especially without being there addressing the problems I say I see. Without using the gifts I claim to have to make a difference. Could have sworn I said I had a church and many, many, many Christians in my life....up close and personal too...as most of them are in my home at one time or another. So, how you get I don't interact is anyone's guess. I love it when someone pulls out the old beam in the eye when they hear something they don't like....but, if I hadn't been in TWI and had the same issues with church that are being discussed here...it might possibly be relevant....but I have HAD to pull that beam out of my eye....and now I see church differently. You can tell it to the Lord Chockful...tell Him how awful His church is....tell Him His people are not worthy of your presence....tell Him you don't need it and your attitude is justified because He didn't go to church...He did go to the Temple though....I simply made an observation.....tell Him how narrow minded I am because I pointed out meeting together, accountability, and having a fellowship of believers is important to our Christian walk...... How we are to esteem each other....and a church is where you find Christians meeting. We have pastors because people need pastoring....you and I included.....so we don't get taken so far afield....not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root. As far as China is concerned or a place like Entreia I am sure those still in prison for having a church, being a pastor, or simply being caught with a bible....will be glad to hear this is all over now.....except those who have been executed that is. You don't know what you are talking about....but, if you became involved in serving the persecuted CHURCH, as we call them....you might. Groups like VOM train people to go the CHURCHES to speak to CHRISTIANS about the plight of the persecuted CHURCH. CHURCHES have them come speak to their CONGREGATIONS so that the CHURCH here better might understand better what is happening to our BRETHREN in other parts of the world. So we might better serve them. Enamored of religion? No...but I do like church because it is made up of Christians and I am enamored of them. We are suppose to be. Not standing from the outside pointing fingers....there are other people who have that job.....it shouldn't come from those who say they belong to the same body.