WhiteDove

I"d like to see the answers to the topic at hand first before we spin off again to another subject It apperas that when we have no answes we move to a different subject the resurection. So when say for instance Jo*n L*nn came forward with his personal testimony he was credible as well? Yes? So how do you then justify the difference in views if both are factual,credible,truthful. It would seem that oposing views can't both be right so what is the standard for picking who is credible? Is it because they vilify the way? Is that the standard for truth? I'd submit not.

Removed Personal Attack

Speaking of who did his level best to fix what was wrong, who tried to warn people, why is it that the rest of that group he was a part of seem to have a different view? I mean after all they were saying the same thing at one point, shouldn't we believe that as well because they said it. The context of the claim was because someone said it it must be true. there are plenty of others at the top as you refer to them to choose from. But then you know that don't you ...It's just that there are so few of the bunch that agree with your mindset and your lone voice who posts here . Funny how others also say things but somehow what they say does not count as truth only one persons view. Now John seems to have a different view as indicated by his letter here recently that's his personal testimony why is that not the truth as well? I mean if just because someone at the top says so then he should qualify as well? perhaps because it is not negative enough?

No one can make you replace God or anything else for that matter unless one chooses to. If one did so them take accountability for your own actions.

I'll just point out this little glitch in your facts case. Speaking of RD since you were, it seems that even he and his former Capital City Saints buddies can't even seem to agree on the facts, who also were in some cases "on the ground eye witness experience and personal testimony" and once seemed to be of the same mind concerning facts. It appears that he can't seem to agree with them on the facts anymore. Not to mention the countless others who also have their differing set of facts that he never was on the same page with So again the question begs Since when did RD's opinion become facts? What you have are his words ,his view. I could give you many reasons why that does not qualify as facts. For instance Chris G**r has a story when he and the Way parted company is his view also facts because he says so? What about other former leaders, are their stories also facts? And if so why don't these factual accounts coincide? Who gets to pick which one is the real facts? Do you decide because RD agrees with your distaste for the way? Is that what makes something factual. I don't think so....

As I pointed out there are lots of differing on the ground eye witness experience and personal testimony. Is just because someone posted here and is of the same mind set as you , does that make them the keeper of facts? Doubtful Not the only part but I figured we could start here. Any answers?

Since when did RD's opinion become facts? What you have are his words ,his view. I could give you many reasons why that does not qualify as facts. For instance Chris G**r has a story when he and the Way parted company is his view also facts because he says so? What about other former leaders, are their stories also facts? And if so why don't these factual accounts coincide? Who gets to pick which one is the real facts? Do you decide because RD agrees with your distaste for the way? Is that what makes something factual. I don't think so....

If one is in the mind to lay blame, which I am not ,then the blame would belong where it is proven to be the fault ,not supposed. I have no problem with the facts being examined and if someone feels the need to lay blame as it is merited. I'd like to see the facts for your claims by facts meaning real ones, I think they are lacking for some of your claims above. Have you seen them or do you just read what someone said was true? As I said You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.

I did not miss your point and I agree it was his opinion just as all the post before that were . I don't see where he represented it as anything but his opinion by the way. The thing is you seemed to skip all those other opinions that are not factual matters either, when it came to your request for documentation. It seems that they don't need any in your view. Now me I'm in favor of all claims being documented just not only the supposed Wierwille apologists ones

Interesting thing that documentation...... it seems to be needed only in hand picked situations , otherwise "I said so" just works as well.

O.K. WD, so what now. What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.) I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused. I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying. Jeff you seem to equate accepting the facts with laying blame it is not the same thing. If someone drops a glass and breaks it, it is not blame to say that they did so, it is factual. I offered no blame for anyone's actions I only stated that the actions were performed. I contrasted those actions with what we were taught...over and over and over again in so many different ways. If you never heard anything else in the Way it would have been almost impossible to have missed the teaching that we were to align our actions with scripture. Logically if we were taught to do this and it failed to happen it seems that the glitch in the system lays not with the instruction because we were taught to do so, but in the person doing what was instructed. Yes? And if one chose not to do what he had learned then the result would be due to the failure on the part of the student to apply the teaching. It seems that rather than excusing oneself from the responsibility by blaming others , the student would be better served by accepting their error and rectifying it from scripture. You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.

Actually I'm not aware that it ever was overruled ........ Too many made the decision to give it up ,of their own choice.

With 17,911 posts You need to ask?????

Actually the assumption to me looks like ,that you assume he had no choice, He is an adult as such he makes his own choices. I see nothing that indicates he is deficient in any way to make rational decisions on his own. By your logic then advertising industry (which by the way does the same things you described ) controls us as well.....Doubtful .....You either buy the hype or you don't each is free to choose how they wish. You give them way too much credit but I suppose some people see conspiracies in everything around them. They have treatment options for that problem as well, but then again...... that is another choice.......

Then again the same can be said for those with a ax to grind. What we really have observed is a request for factual information not unsupported theories as fact. Now everyone of course is entitled to their opinion as long as it is not passed off as truth.

Oh boy a Yak Twig......Haven't we learned any lessons........ Exactly why is it that we feel the need to be a part of some secret inner circle?

We are so very thankful for the opportunity that we had to learn the word from VP Wierwille We are all so much better off for our experiences in the Way.

Then again for many there is a sense of happiness for all those that were helped along the way. I suppose it depends on your perspective as to how one "feels" Then again how one feels seems to change over the years depending on percieved sence of loss.

Mark this day in history someone actually wants proof ,hard facts not someones word. Interesting!!!!!

I thought this was going to be a thread about another one of those sappy VP and Howard skits about the "toolbox' Hey I have all the tools but I'm not gonna work. Or maybe one about VP's jack. Perhaps we should investigate just what the correlation between" tools" and TWI was. Why were they so fascinated with their " tools "? :blink: Me I never thought of myself as a tool but........It did make me think of Peter ,Paul and Mary ( not the biblical ones) If I Had A Hammer Peter, Paul & Mary Songwriters: Lee Hays and Pete Seeger If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning, I'd hammer in the evening, All over this land, I'd hammer out danger, I'd hammer out a warning, I'd hammer out love between, My brothers and my sisters, All over this land. If I had a bell, I'd ring it in the morning, I'd ring it in the evening, All over this land, I'd ring out danger, I'd ring out a warning, I'd ring out love between, My brothers and my sisters, All over this land. If I had a song I'd sing it in the morning I'd sing it in the evening all over this land I'd sing out danger I'd sing out warning I'd sing out love between my brothers and my sisters all over this land Well, I've got a hammer and I've got a bell and I've got a song to sing all over this land It's the hammer of justice It's the bell of freedom It's a song about love between my brothers and my sisters all over this land It's the hammer of justice It's the bell of freedom It's a song about love between my brothers and my sisters All over this la-a-and

Ha T ........ I don't think we checked with the neighbors when we used those for the Dove wedding dance at the old homestead. What are you turning into an old fuddy duddy? Then again as much champagne as we went through I bet the speakers were the least of their worries.

It is a possibility ...... Then again he is not accusing Bumpy of some crime either is he . I'd guess he has no reason to fabricate the story. but as you pointed out and oddly enough seem to understand in this case hard evidence such as photo evidence could be presented to corroborate the story. I think it works the same for all stories.

I agree with Mark, The people associated with TWI weren't shocked, I do think that some people wondered if being so in your face was the best way to get the point across.

Not sure why you think anything was sanitized the date of his resigination is listed in the book along with the letter copyof Augest 7th 1957 Nothing was hidden, anyone that can add can figure out the dates. What does this sidebar have to do with the supposed believing in the Trinity in 1968? Nothing that I can see, or are you just trying to change the direction of things due to the facts not agreeing with the personal testimony? And so his ministry was about 2 years old what again does this have to do with the subject?