WhiteDove

I don't think this is the issue. What a person believes is irrelevant it is wrong to libel a person in a public forum unless one has documentation to back up their claim. I might think that OJ murdered his wife but the fact is he was not found guilty of the crime. As such one can not say he was a murderer as factual. one could offer an opinion that they personally think so, but it is not a fact as he has no such charge to his record I would defend his right not to be referred to as a murderer despite what I may think personally. We have correct words to use until such time as one is found guilty of a crime. Feelings are not a part of speaking correctly.

Absolutely you get no argument from me on this! On the other side of the coin though it is still our responsibility to learn the scripture for ourselves I think it talks about iron sharpening iron. not iron following iron. when the iron is sharpened there is resistance sparks fly sometimes that does not sound passive to me. People are always selling something whether intentional or unintentional, but we don't have to buy what they are selling. I could see the point if it were someone new in the scripture, maybe they would tend to just follow along, but we are talking about people with years of time in the scripture Corps Grads at some point one would think that they are no longer feeding on the milk of others so to speak. A young auto mechanics student might pour water in the gas tank if their teacher told them to, but someone that works on cars for years and spent time in their craft would not blindly do such a thing. Were we not to be students of our craft so to speak?

Again had you read what I said you would see that I never said scripture was never overruled what I said was that each had a choice to do what scripture said or not. If one made the choice to not then that is hardly anyone elses fault. Regardles of what anyone said or any pressure we still have free will and we certainly had ample instruction on following the scripture at every turn. So you see I never refused to acknowledge the ocurance, only pointed out that each is responsible for their own choices. Much like someone really can't make another angry, now they can do their best to irritate the person, but that person still has a choice to get angry or not, if you allowed someone to overrule scripture the choice was yours.

I don't belive that to be true you Oak yourself have noted that I have posted about disagreements with Wierwille doctrine. And by the way the post that started this before others introduced other side topics had nothing to do with Wierwille . I took exception that someone infered that sripture was overruled, I don't believe that to be a true statement. Speaking for myself and I imagine quite a few others I was never forced to overrule scripture.

That Scripture Center is Tom Burk*'s and some others, I believe Ken McC*w is also involved in that as well. But hey I only live in Kansas so what could I possibly know.... I mean I never went WoW. Edit to add R*b and Ch*ryl W*lliams 6th Corps just moved up there from AZ. They will also be involved. Also Le*n H*ason plays with those guys and does some stuff there also I believe. They have a live CD that was recorded there that is fairly new. Live at the study center.

Well if it is I can solve your mystery, but I may have to kill you once I do.

Is it around Westerville, OH?

It sounds like nothing you said! I think you have gone in too many circles. There is a clear difference between humans speaking their opinion and humans speaking as moved by the holy spirit and that would be the differnce in the applied standards.

I think you may have confused a few posts there Jeff what I said was I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. The context of what I said was in response to this claim I know of no case where this was overruled except by those who made their own choice to do so. Scripture says God can make a way where there is no way. To claim that you had no other way ,that you were overruled ,looks to me to say God is a liar when he says he will make a way. I'd submit that it was we that missed the choice not God that was overruled.

Archa I fail to find where I said such a thing. but then you know that don't you. what I said was I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields.

You see thats the thing Integrity do you have some magic meter that guanentees that. Case in point most people would swear by their spouses integrity, at least until all of a sudden one day they ran off with the mailman, or their secretary and now proclaim them to be the dirt of the earth. So was you gues right ? What looks to be self evident and obvious one day changes the next often. At best it's a guess.....

Plethora? Really?? exactly how many do you think that is? My point exactly second hand from a good source (Isn't it always) who probably heard it from another good source who was a cousin of someone that knew someone that heard it . Well it would if I were to do such a thing but there is that slight problem with your theory. You see I never said that, you seem to have decided what I believe all by your lonesome. My standard applies to fallible humans not God or his scripture there is a big difference He does not lie. You also seem to have forgot that these everyday men you speak of wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit something I doubt can be said for posts here, including my own. Oh and third You believe it because it says so. Really??? You know this how??? no I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields. And then there is that unmistakable proof that gobbledygook thing

I'd agree I don't think that there is that much way doctrine in his teaching anymore he has even moved away from their own early teachings through the years. He has become more more gospel, kingdom,works focused as the years progress.

Thanks for your honesty in posting....... and I do agree on the accounts in Acts one does take that on faith or not depending on ones beliefs. personally I do accept it as truth because I believe the Bible is true, is Gods Word, and that God is not a man that He should lie. Well and then there is that gobbledygook thing In regard to everyday occurrences we also agree. You may have missed it but in several cases before I have posted that it is reasonable to accept things at face value in those situations however in the case where someone's character is being maligned or they are being accused of a crime then I feel it prudent to have a little more content than I say so. This tends to get buried as it is more fun to opposition to misrepresent the point. I've never implied that someone who said they had an orange for breakfast should be suspect. Generally in routine matters people tend to be honest. I'd exclude people who post on a admittedly biased exway site from being routine. the same for those on a pro way site each has an agenda. . No matter how good and kind a person may be often their words are empty, we are human, fallible and we lie ,just as the scriptures said. You don't need to look far to see that, look at the divorce rate all of those people who vowed a vow to love, honor, cherish ,support one another in good and bad situations. Those who were the love of their life, those who they would have entrusted their very life and secrets of the heart and yet now their words are empty, the situations changed and with it their views on the other person have as well. What once was he or she is wonderful has turned to they are an a**hole The same is true for best friends until something like a guy gets in the way, then all of a sudden that best friend forever seems to get tossed by the wayside. Empty words...... The same is true for former Way followers life was all and good until they were on the wrong side of the atta boy line, or they lost their cushy life as a MOG, then all of a sudden they have a different view. That's why facts are important they don't change with emotions, job loss, or other temporal things. They remain constant through all the BS all the I'll be true forever claims, all the best friends claims. Your correct to some degree we all must trust people , I've learned from past mistakes to keep that to a minimum. perhaps you have heard the phrase fair weather friends? Many of us had friends ,people we trusted in the way who because of choices to stand with the way, despite years of trust now their words were empty one moment we were the best the next we were gangrene. Really think about it ,if someone that you gave your heart to ,who knows your innermost secrets, someone you sleep with every night, can change their words from you are the love of my life to you are a so and so ,then I'd guess some exwafers would surely be capable of changing their words as well. I've seen it happen here, once friends, nothing but praise for each other until something happens and then their words are void. Now they are the dirt of the earth. I choose not to play that game anymore Experience will tell you..... Trust no one.......

Well they say practice makes perfect......Good Luck!

Exclusivily ? Really??? Because as I look it seems that I have answered the posts as they have come. By the way ..... Not Likely......

Then we agree.... But what is self evident to me is that some peoples opinions flip flop like the wind on a windy day (Oh and whether they were fired from their MOG status or not). And when you can look back on documented facts that show this to be true, IMO that is not a credible testimony it may change again tomorrow if the wind blows........I'm not looking for a collective either the point was that there are a large group of people that were in top leadership, and there are about as many different views now . I find it interesting that out of them all only the one one who posts here seems to be picked as the authority on things. Telling someone what they want to hear is not necessarily the same as the truth ,it just agrees with their preconceived mindset. Personally I don't see any of them as any more believable as the next without proof.

I agree that is what he said and then in the next post the straw man as you put it came out ,only as usual it was not I who put it forth, it was Twinky who proclaimed To which I took exception as I don't believe that it got overruled I think some decided to make that decision on their own, and if that is the case why not just say so? rather than once again trying to blame someone or something else for your actions. Now I could have just ignored the remark but I chose not to. My choice what I respond to or not. From there the subject has changed generally when some don't like the questions so it is easier to change the subject . Ok with me I take the subjects as others put them forth.

I could not agree more and your standards are apparently different than mine so what? You want me to believe what your laying down ,have some substance to prove your point . People are fickle facts are not.

I"ll make it simple for you......Former MOG's words are not God breathed while they may be men like those in the Bible their opinions which change day to day, and in no way compare to to scripture in which Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit, your comparison is lacking.

I can appreciate Jeff's perspective considering his background in the military. Although I think it is possible to Turn it off just as one turned it on at some point. but that's another discussion. However to put forth that we did not have choices based on his personal situation is not a fair representation it was not a one size fits all situation. Had everyone been former military I'd say you / he had a point in why they would think that way, but that was not the case. Each had a choice what to do and think despite any influences which may have been a consideration in that choice.

First to assume that there is any comparison between what the Bible says and what a man says is lacking. As a Christian I certainly accept the scripture as inspired. Belief in Biblical matters like the resurrection vs what a human might say concerning a subject are not even on the same level of comparison one is fallible one is not, oranges and apples. I don't accept human words because they say so. And I'm not debating a doctrinal issue like the resurrection here on this forum . Suffice to say in short, I do believe the accounts in the scripture are true including the witnesses as a matter of faith. Those who do not accept the Bible as God breathed won't accept it as the same. That is why I referred to it as a matter of faith. Additionally we have the spirit which you apparently think is quote gobbledy gook SIT you learned from VP to confirm the account of the resurrection. You can believe what you want about that. RD was a MOG in the Way hierarchy just as many others, he enjoyed the same status and perks as others. While in the way he was supportive of their views ,upon leaving he aligned himself with the early CES group then Capital City Saints supporting their views, now he has a third set of views (at least, he may have had some others in between) His views flip flop about as fast as our Democratic Candidate for president. So tell me which is the facts? Will the real facts please stand up ? Why should I believe him as some authority it seems he is still working out after three different views his facts. I don't mean to pick on RD here really , you could substitute any name here, which is why I threw out a few like G**r, Ly*n, Finn*g*n ,Cl*p they are all fallible people as you and I are. I trust their words zero without proof ,period, Just because they say so doesn't move me ,as I pointed out many of those same others that were as someone put it close to the top all have different views than his. To pick out one because he posts here or because he fits your mindset about the way as having the true facts is absurd. Facts are not based on likeability although I'm sure RD is very likable at times, that's simply not enough neither is his Ex MOG status ,there are lots of those around to pick from, and about as many conflicting views of the facts. Words are cheap....... proof comes much harder. No confusion here I just don't buy your apples and oranges comparisons.

Johns letter is posted here as well as RD rants about CES you can look them both up.

Well perhaps you would care to enlighten uninformed ones then.