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http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm More from the same: I haven't heard any rebuttal- I can only assume that this is typical of the momentus "experience", and J.L. and crew did "participate" in these early days the story here describes. Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

Here are a few quotations of the hold harmless agreement http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_unethicalharmless.htm Theoretically, they could beat you to a bloody pulp, and you have no recourse, if a judge and jury would hold the agreement valid. "standard of care"- no professional standard. Doesn't sound like a "church" I would want to have anything to do with.

"wasted resources" "money spent on vacations, parties, turkey for a thanksgiving meal that you won't be in town for, in short, spent money on anything except for der ministry that taught you der verd"

We were even taught what they were SUPPOSED to sound like.. exhortation, comfort.. boldly.. "prophecies may contain sections of scripture.." "always in alignment with the word of God (vey doctrine).." I haven't heard the latest "manifestations", but at der vey I would imagine they are abundantly peppered with "Da Household" and "prevailing". They wouldn't want to ask me to give a "prophecy" anymore.. "get off your sorry *ss, shed your farking religious veneer, and DO something. Do something for YOURSELF, go to school, get some credentials other that the rubber stamping and posturing you gain from your organization. And then MAYBE you can help somebody else, without causing too much damage. And for God's sake, quit telling people to beat pillows and scream 'mommy mommy mommy'..." OK you biblical scholars, try to find something between Genesis and Revelation that THAT contradicts..

I dunno.. the old philosophy of "fake it till you make it" of the late 60's may work for a lot of things, but not prophecy. "grow as you go.." "prophecy is always guaranteed".. I remember "practice sessions". Person has to presume to speak in the Lord's name, until he gets sufficient experience to be entrusted to do the "real job".. Makes no sense to me.

Maybe a lot. :)

I have seen the most awful, totally off the mark "prophecies" uttered with the "boldness of da Lord".. spoken with enough "power" to curl your hair, but they couldn't have been more ineffective, bland.. "ahh loves ya, mah people..." gotta be kidding..

Before digital processing: After:

I dunno.. you can "fix" a lot of things with computers.

There is only one person in the whole world whom I have met who I would consider a "prophet", and the person does not have an agenda. No classes to sell, no recommendations to take this class, that class.. no doctrine to shove down the throat.. no demands of loyalty, no books to sell, nor any claims to be "right". And no arrogance. Totally opposite life, from the lifestyle of the "rich and famous" (Graeser, Lynn Et al). In a sense, I feel like CES has learned how to channel their arrogance. That's the "mind blowing" power people feel. In my opinion anyway.

I would agree, but I think they were rather successful at portraying their dismal form of "success" as being REAL. It looked real enough to me, but I like others was rather young. Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study.. intermediate class, seminars, advanced class- Real success always seemed to be an illusion just around the corner.

Hello Quiet Thinker, nice to meet you. They were a little more blatant here.The reason that they gave us that we weren't selling was that it was because *we* were too boring. That NOBODY could stand the blandness of the fellowship.. I think she was just projecting. I think they drank a little too much of their own kool aide.. it got to the place that leadership was sold on the concept that we weren't supposed to have fun, we were supposed to "move the word". Yep.. they are looking for more gold to salt that old iron mine with..

I wonder if they have considered a home version, do it yourself experience. For half the price, they could offer a package with a "killing the victiim" book, a pillow, and an overdose of digitalis to simulate a heart attack.. "hold harmless" agreement would be required to be signed with the order..

I don't think the horse is quite dead yet. from http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_mombarton.htm Bill Barton writes: I dunno. It seems to me that something like this would be such an embarrasment, what would be his motive to make it up? And Johnny boy has recommended it as late as 2006, according to one poster, if I remember it correctly.. can't find it at the moment. This is what he was promoting. Maybe this explains the board's behavior. The agression, bullying.. firing (condemning to death) those who may not be as "strong".. and it explains sufficiently for me, J.L.'s pontificating, pushy "hey, listen to ME" letter here. I don't think things have changed.. I just think they finally turned inward on themselves.

ooooooh, doody doody. Where do I sign??

Or to protect me from devils, or to give me all of the answers in life. Personally, I don't feel redemption is so ineffective that it requires such extraordinary methods to implement.

It didn't take a 36 hour class to save me from sin and death either.

Naw, I'm not bitter. I am kind of taken back with J.L.'s recommendation of momentus, though. Did you look at the link? The guy that runs it does not show very many qualifications. "ordained minister" doesn't say a whole heck of a lot. Did he ordain himself? What qualifies him to work on another human being's brain? Possibly J.L. "ordained" him? It would be like one hand washing the other. Too many questions, and they apparently aren't offering very many answers. Or qualifications. I had a thought of calling up the church he claims he did some work for, but I just don't have the time. I feel sorry for the companies that contracted him for God knows what, especially after seeing what the momentus product does to human beings. The website does NOT say "SATISFIED customers", at least what I read there. After reading about folks being instructed to beat a pillow and scream "mommy", it just kind of puts all of the things I've known and read about CES in proper perspective.

"debt" "a constantly changing concept. Last known definition: anything one owes to anyone except da ministry that taught them der word"

Yeah, that oyster spent weeks in labor for the little rascal. "no big deal"

Groucho, I feel like we're telling people that Santa Claus isn't real anymore.. but t's more like they are seeing it for themselves. Something has to die for something to live.

So.. if it doesn't work, re-invent it. Prophecies fail? Don't come to pass? Simply re-invent it. Turn it into "conditional prophecy", or some such nonsense.. "well, you WOULDA felt like dirt if I didn't let you have it with this little gem.." If you are losing a ball game, the easy way out would be to simply change the rules. Then write a book. 101 ways to examine prophecy.

Yep.. I thought as much. I guess everybody else is expendable. No average Joes anymore. It makes sense though. They seem to be trying to get their fangs into the upper level of society. Trying to get back some prestige, some influence.. some respect. Just salting the mine. I don't think they are getting many converts though. But like the little boy trying to sell the pencil for a million dollars, he said "well, if I could just sell ONE.."

could have fooled me. What did she speak? Spiders and such, protecting the "ministry" from the evils of J.L.'s then wife? What I'd like to see, is the files of other "prophecies" and dreams they have stored away. I think this little convenient bit of information is the tip of quite a large iceberg. I wonder if the office shredders are working overtime.

True. But probably for the same reason I wouldn't, I've NEVER, EVER EVER seen it work, at least in der vey or offshoots. Did it happen to you? I'm not entirely impressed. I don't know if it's true or not, but I read a story about a guy who wanted to be an investor. Started with about 2000 names and addresses. He makes a prediction, says "IBM stock will rise" and sends to half, sends "IBM stock will fall" and sends it to the other half.. after eight predictions, he has fifteen who will sign away their fortunes to him to invest. Really, I think that is what we have here. I have heard the most mundane, plain WRONG "prophecies" .. "don't worry, mah son.." sheesh, I wasn't worried about anything at the time.. I've been "ministered" to for pain that wasn't there.. With all that said, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying, I've never seen it work. As far as K.G. being "right on the money" with J.L., I think she was simply telling him what he wanted to hear.