Ham

What was even worse was when loy sent out BARELY older than pimple-faced teenagers to confront godly people that were a mere three or four times their age. Limb Coordinator here was one of these unexperienced, unqualified and by a reasonable person's observation, displayed the intellect of less than a fifth grade education. But, boy could he confront, and mark and avoid.. loy must have been proud.

Might be right Socks. Next year, might be another self "help" seminar, and they'll be standing awe-struck in the shadow of a few great flunkys, yet one more time, "you just HAFTA try this one.." At least we know their stand on momentus, from statements of some of their membership. Maybe that's enough here. God have mercy on them.. one "fix" after another. To me it looks worse than a heroin addiction.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/634.html There are several other similar incidents of suicide. When the server for the other website I found gets straightened out, I'll post the other documented sources. So much for myth and "speculation".

I don't think so. I think the only ones purged were those who were merely suspect, and refused to agree with the inquisitor, or those who caved in under confrontation and quietly left. Either case, I don't think they actually were homosexual. loy couldn't recognize a homo if there was one right next to him.. Donna and Rosalie are alleged to have had a "fling" or two, by reliable witness. The story is probably in the archives here somewhere..

Yep, I know that feeling- the "man" excitedly waving his arms around, shouting.. I don't know it was good training- maybe somebody just put a tack on his chair.

From Bramble, on another thread: I think this has relevance on THIS discussion, as well. The more aggressive, the better, or so they thought. I would only add, reckless. Careless with PEOPLE. I think qualifications and experience only stood in the way.

Well, you can ask.. but I think that's fairly valid, Pond. Look at the response people got about the prophecy thingy- "READ MY BOOK". One thing your thought suggests to me.. with all of the "prophecies", "counter-prophecies", blaming, maneuvering.. the past middle age wolves have no place left to go. They lack the stamina and charisma to really work up a following anymore. So what do they do? They turn on themselves. I'm glad I'm not directly in the middle of all this. I feel sad for those who are. Apparently there is no "honor among thieves", or thugs for that matter, anymore..

"Help Wanted" "Thugs for Jesus" "Now filling leadership and training positions. Must be young, robust, healthy, motivated.. CPR training, and an appetite for sheep flesh a plus. Must be willing to travel, and obey implicitly. Only serious applicants please." This was the perfect job for Mr. (now Rev) "I never mix my bread and vegetables" limb coordinator. He was so "successful" that they promoted him, and made him a region coordinator. Take a flunky just out of high school, put him on the fast track.. To me, the parallels between TWI and some groups arerather striking. They teach people how to hurt people. And provide every rationalization in the world to ease whatever conscience they may have had.. loy put a lot of these goons in charge.. and he said something to the effect of "well, can't learn to cook without breaking a few heads. Besides, we gotta get 'things' done.." "the gain that we get will outweigh the FEW MISTAKES (they) will make.." Same damn "ethics".

Good point. Why is it a LOT of these unqualified people start as a "trainer" or "leader" in these kind of organizations at a rather young age.. No qualifications necessary, well, maybe CPR training. SOMEBODY has to recognize when pressure from the training is pushing someone over the edge, and they're having a heart attack.. No qualifications, and NO EXPERIENCE EITHER, or little. No experience or qualifications to get a job as a thug either. The "boss" is more than willing to watch you "learn as you go".

Happened in the parent organization, too.

I suggested calling them the "Midland Marmots", but would they listen to me? Nooooooooo...

"... high atop a rock was a fish, ahem, I mean a perch, no.. was perched a fish, naw... there was a house..."

yep.. second rate jock. I do use that term with care, however.. no offense to the REAL athletes here. Both of my kids participated in athletics. Real athletes have more than physical discipline. They're not just mindless brutes.. loy on the other hand..

True.. but if you're gonna go down a hole, why be miserable and alone? Actually, "they" managed to chase off a lot of people that had some logic, education, and a few qualifications. Those who would not blindly follow, the few who could not honestly "rubber stamp" the most mindless "research" known to the mind of man. The sad part is, some who did leave became what it was that they left.

For one of the real problems about running an organization by people who lack credentials.. look at Der Vey. A guy who worked in a LUMBERYARD was chosen to head up the finances.. A second-rate JOCK was chosen as PRESIDENT. (notice I didn't say "athlete" ) A Beretta-bearing THUG was chosen to run the work in a COUNTRY. Holy smokes.. And there was no talking to these guys, no common sense.. neither SPIRITUAL sense, which they falsly ascribed to themselves. They were better, in their own eyes, than those who had valid qualifications. Ole doc had a valid Masters, there was no excuse for him as such.. But I remember him complaining, "wa, wa wa.. I can't do what I wanna, all you smart guys are trying to run this thing by your senses.." when those who qualified were RIGHT. "Well, we know da verd.. " or "Father told me.." "end of 'discussion', THUS SAYETH THE LORD" loy did that with the full time ministers debacle, when he was practicing the morals and sexual abstinence of a Guinea Pig. To this day, anybody in power in that place won't admit it was a mistake. CES is suffering the same fate. Those on top are.. untouchable. Until the lawyers get involved..

Really? I remember the Tylenol incident a "few" years ago. From what I remember, at least ONE "otherwise perfectly healthy" person, who merely had a headache DIED. So, what did the manufacturer do.. "well, it was only one death, a few got sick. Let's just have business as usual, and insist that the customers sign a hold harmless agreement before we sell them the product." No- they pulled Tylenol off the shelf like it was cyanide.. went to great lengths to recall the product, at great expense. Yeah- a "money grubbing drug company" as some people would call them. And they have more "CHRISTIAN" morals than a group that espouses christian beliefs. Or merely shrouds itself in them, in name only. "what's a murder, a few suicides, people going in the loony bin. Can't put it in the dumpster, look at all the good it did.." This is SUPPOSED to be a "self-help" seminar.. people just want a little more focus, maybe- maybe a few more communication skills. Maybe they want a little more confidence in themselves. "well, let's just break them down.. REALLY show them how they need a savior.." I thought that was the devil's job.

Happy Birthday! Forty? I thought you were 35, Abi..

Hmmm. Add a word, change a word.. pretty soon they have eve approaching der debil for a home loan..

Sorry. I'm my OWN guru. Can't claim that of anybody else. Just look at the little thingy under my avatar. <<<<<<< I would hope that I am some good kind of influence, at least as it relates to REALITY here. But in the end, everybody's their own master, if they choose, at the end of the day. You'll just have to order your own dog around.

To put the question where it REALLY belongs.. to the "instructors" of this thing.. "WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO HIDE???" "what ARE your qualifications?" "WHO ordained YOU?" "What DEGREE, and WHERE DID YOU ACQUIRE IT?" "How are YOU qualified to handle people who go stark raving mad?" Don't tell me, "well, I did some consultant work for Disney.." Yeah.. I shook Micky Mouses hand once.. "well, I did some work in corporate america.." Well. That explains why things are soooooo screwed up.

No argument here, but they are not gonna work on my brain unless they have more than good wishes. Stepping over the line into this relm of psychological "conditioning" is something a loving person would not do, in my opinion, given the track record of "results". To put someone in a "survival" exercise, with little more than a few people standing by with at best CPR training is reprehensible.

The momentus thing got me going about qualifications, or the lack thereof. Why is this true for these kind of organizations? CES included.. Those in authority often don't have qualifications, credentials. Or few, or the wrong ones, to run an organization, to counsel PEOPLE. It seems a lot of people followed up on v.p.'s example of throwing caution to the wind to acquire a skunk-pelt from a degree mill, so to speak. Some didn't even bother going that far. I can understand how some people feel- why stifle people.. why denigrate their abilities because they lack the proper sheepskin, or proper credentials.. and I partly agree. BUT. In the "real world" it is the EXCEPTION that someone lacks the proper educational requirements, degrees and certificates. Not the RULE. ESPECIALLY when it comes to helping people, as some kind of psychological "trainer" or such. Maybe they think it's too late to go back to school, learn it right.. maybe they've graduated from High School, and don't have a place to go. There's, on one hand, several more years of hard work.. on the other, EASY MONEY. All of those "fluff" classes in college as they call them, are there for a reason.. if you graduate from a reputable school today, you know a little about ethics, history, and perhaps philosophy. No matter what your degree is in. They are less likely to follow a bunch of lemmings down a deep hole. The history prof at my school said something to the class like "awwww, you don't see why you should learn history, boo hoo hoo. Maybe you oughta go to a certification place, someplace like Devries. They won't make you learn history.." He wasn't QUITE that mean.. heheh.

My other thought along these lines is, why is lack of qualifications, lack of training the RULE among these self "help" groups, rather than the EXCEPTION? The community college I went to.. and it was not a large one- EVERY math professor had a MASTER'S degree in math, which over-qualified them for what they were teaching, and 9 out of 10 were currently working on their DOCTORATE. The university I'm in now- EVERY math professor has a Doctorate, period. I didn't have to sign a hold harmless agreement with the university when I enrolled, either. Lack of education among these self "help" groups appears to the rule.

The way I think about it: If somebody doesn't have qualifications, they are PRACTICING, on YOU. Not "practicing" as in what a real doctor does, more like, pre-game "practice". If they HIDE their experience and qualifications, and I can EASILY follow the path of dead bodies to their front door.. with the exception of ONE person I personally know here.. the other "procedures" have been an abject FAILURE. Ended with unchecked egotism, unbridled arrogance, divorce.. hatred masked as love.. hypocrisy, delusions of Moghood.. give me a different logical reason for the conclusion I am forming. "God works in mysterious ways.." I'm really glad I wasn't really far up the TWI totem pole.. somebody probably would've tried to push the thing on me, and I'd a tried it.. Thank God for the little things in life..

Perhaps an understatement. The real "big" momentus guy doesn't even publish on his website where he got his BACHELLOR'S degree from. Or did he even get one? His claim to fame: he is an "ordained minister". From WHERE? There is one person I know with a bachellor's degree in psychology that I would barely trust to time a rat as he made his way through the maze.. But somebody who won't even reveal where he got his "training". "well, I've been around.." Holy smokes.. have a headache? I can fix it with a little "procedure". heck, it's cheap.. no claims of sterility, however. Qualifications? "I've been around..." Make sure you bring cash, in advance. Oh, just one "little" thing, this little waiver.. "your pen or mine?"