Ham

Yep. And the silence is almost deafening. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to chime in here in their own defence, not that they even care. Perhaps they are pleased to be living so as to have "the ministry to be blamed".

But I do not know how different they really are from other groups. Once you make a claim of infallibility, that Craigers is THE Mog, and to this day adhere to his mandates, suggestions and questionable doctrines like they were written in stone... in their opinion he was speaking excathedra (sorry exie, NO comparison to you intended!) , and will defend his stuff to the death. Sounds familiar to at least one other group.

I think this is part of the heart of the subject of this thread. Once you claim infallibility, you get everything that comes with it. This includes the blame when it goes sour.

The situation with this clergy guy is pretty darn sour. Passing the blame to poor stooges will not work very much longer. Not a very comfortable position for TWI I think. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

They must be between a rock and a hard place.

Admit the wrong and wrongdoing, and losen your grip over the little flock that is left. Whatya afraid of? Afraid they might be able to have a little fun?

Or hold on to the austere and devilish mandates of your lords and masters- LCM, Rosie and group?

In my opinion, either way, they lose.

OK Bob! Yes, I think TWI is responsible, in part (a large one) or in whole.

In my opinion they bear responsability, either way you look at it.

1. They are infallible, hold the secret decoder, know all the secrets of devils and men. They had to have been very aware of what was happening, and allowed it.

2. They are snake oil salesmen, or their decoder does not quite decode right. They really can't see devils through 10 feet of lead, concrete and reinforced steel. Their arrogance of believing otherwise at least allowed this "little problem" to slip by. They are then guilty of negligence. And I am not blaming the poor stooges that bought into the junk. It may be harsh, but I too was a stooge once..

And from my observations- the product itself was regarded to be above scrutiny. Usually the fault landed on somebody- had to be because they had some secret fault, or they had "proven themselves to systematically miss it" or some other such nonsense. Kinda like the poor guy that accidently gave ole craigers a rough plane ride. He was attributed almost every attribute from slothful to outright devilish. My point is that the product (how they think they understand the bible) is not really all that that they claim.

Abigail, I really do agree with you. I also feel that a lot of good, well meaning people were set up for failure. They were expected to see devil spirits through 10 feet of lead. After all, they were taught "how". I think the well meaning folks who seemingly "missed it" really paid the price, often publically.

Like what I heard in a couple of "counciling" sessions. "If you will do EXACTLY what we tell you, you WILL get the situation resolved." When failure ensues, somebody has to be tagged with the blame. Sometimes life just kind of does not work that way. And the corps that I knew. Some were pretty sharp. Others though.. pretty damn arrogant.

Somehow the "one size fits all" walk by the spirit is not at all what it is cracked up to be.. at least in my opinion. What I think I really object to is the claim that somehow this is the ultimate in "Christian Living"; it can't be- at least in my opinion- if somebody that is doing all of the supposed right things misses something like this.

And, Uncle H, "Rosie... show some leg.." brrrrrrrrr..

Yep, Uncle H, follow the money.. somebody's gotta help them out with all of those pesky old lawsuits.

I have heard the kind of answers given to similar questions. "Why are you asking?" "What is the motivation behind this question?" No straight answers.

If things go real bad, they would rather publically defame and/or mark and avoid the poor stooge that "missed it". The product must be preserved, AT ALL COSTS.

"Branch coordinators insist such a thing could never have taken place because the daughter of B would have to have been possessed to do such a thing. She could not have been possessed because God would have given them revelation via discerning of spirits if she were."

Abigail, I think this little "account" really says it all. If there is any weakness in the organization to be exploited by anybody, this has got to be it. What arrogance! I cannot logically see why anybody in their RIGHT mind still puts up with it.

If all the "training" and classes really did what they claimed, they really would have known.

This is just one more example showing how spiritually blind and inept they have really become. The overseers have proven themselves to be experts in meddling, even in every insignificant little area of the followers lives, and they miss this one.

Like days of old, they strain at the gnat, and swallow the camel. Blind leaders of the blind.

I would like to see what they say if innies had the audacity to call them on this. I would bet the farm that the answer would not include, "we were wrong".

Thanks Belle.. no internet at home yet. You'll find me in chat sometime soon, as soon as details work out!

I agree. I think society (perhaps a lot less so today) and religion- some more than others- try to put you and relationships in a "one size fits all" box. I too gave up a lot- favorite "devilish" music, some beliefs and opinions that I now see were not so far off what some would regard the truth, and a little common sense. In short, a lot of individuality.

I think giving in on "insignificant" matters was a real problem. These are often the matters that make us us.

After leaving der ministry, a lot came back to me. My musical choices took up where they left off in the early 1970's. I found that I could agree with some of the republican party line, but agree with a lot of the points the democrats were making. I think the perceived change may have scared the crap out of those around me at first.

Kinda funny.. I see young folks getting married and started in life. Sometimes I think, those "poor suckers" have absolutley NO IDEA of who or what they just married, heh heh. Not a remote clue. Just wait twenty years, you may find out.

It's hard to live in a small box forever. I think we were encouraged to hold on so tightly to the guidelines that much individuality was lost. At least that was true for me.

I should be more mathematically correct. Assume that it is true that they are "the one true household", and "have the accuracy of the word unlike it was known since the first century". All it takes is ONE fact otherwise, and the assumption is proven false. One error and they're toast.

House.. what about- "that the ministry be not blamed". Man, that one was used to cover up some real bad stuff. Have a "believer" steal from you, or worse? Don't call the cops. After all, we don't want "the ministry" to appear tarnished.

The thing I can't understand- most of us have experienced rather close "supervision" in this organization. Even as just a regular lowly follower, they know almost everything about you. Finances, health, what kind of books you have in your library, details about your sex life, your daily and weekly calender of activities, and on and on.

How in the world did they miss this? This guy was not just the lowly follower. From what I understand, the corpses and staff were required to live up to an even higher standard. Cripe, they could not even go to the bathroom without having to sign some kind of waver.. and this guy was not just a "regular" staff or corpse, he

was CLERGY.

Add to this that in the ministry we were supposed to find world-class experts that can spot a devil spirit under rock at midnight, even blindfolded, able to "confront the world with the logic of da verd". I think that kind of arrogance is a real problem.

I can only think of two logical conclusions:

1. Since they were supposedly God's best, they had to have known about it and just turned their heads and let it happen. I do not subscribe to this, I cannot think that they are THAT evil.

2. The organization is a scam. What they teach and practice does not work. In other words, they are snake oil sellers that somehow convinced themselves that their unique brand of oil actually works. Obviously, it does not. At the very least, it is not quite as reliable and infallible as believed. This is pretty apparent to me. When things go really wrong, a logical person may wonder if perhaps he or she is really doing the right thing. Not "them". In the "good old days" (and probably even now) the answer was to sweep this kind of stuff under the rug, protect or "move" the perpetrator, almost anything, "that the ministry be not blamed".

It seems to me that the product has more value than the customer, and must be protected at all costs. Even here, some are willing to seemingly fight to the death to defend it, despite its obvious flaws.

Personally, I hold them accountable, at least in part. I am not just ranting about it. I would be willing to honestly consider a logical presentation indicating otherwise. I have yet to hear one.

The same thing goes for other organizations that claim infallibility. The claim places the burden of proof on them. Must not be very comfortable.

"run like the wind" heh heh. Kinda like Forest Gump- we should have been "running fools"- I guess we eventually did!

Hello Trefor! Maybe you were spared from the full time corpse thing. It really spelled disaster in the U.S. Did they actually implement that on your side of the lake? Maybe you were subject to less central control and organization.

Here's another nice phrase for you house..

"God showed me that the corps really needs to go full time"

May not have been one of the set in stone phrases, but it was sure revered as such.

House, absolutely. Funny when it came to the "average believer", the individual was held accountable. Accountable for every little stinking detail.

Held accountable- why you were sick, why you could not make the little insignificant meeting, why you are not taking the newest and the best class or seminar. Plus accountability in your finances, why you were not conducting your finances, child raising, and almost every other facet of your lives according the present truth dictates.

Yet the inner circle seems to be above recrimination. They are free to do as they wish. Spend money like water, take vacations that most followers could only dream of. All seemingly without being held accountable for anything. Maybe that's not quite right- they are accountable- only to themselves, no other standards are necessary.

I certainly agree Kit, but there sure seemed to be quite a few exceptions. I think the really really rotten command more attention than they are worth.

I have met a good share of really good folks, Ralph D. being one of that number.

I have not gone corps, but those that I met went into da service for one of two reasons: 1. Love for God and God's people, just wanting to learn how to serve better

2. Those that saw it as a ticket to power.

Must be kinda like the tares, they both grow till "harvest". I am thankful that some good came out of the experience.

Thanks Mr. 123. Hope to see you sometime soon.

Belle, that was Mrs. Wierwille. She supported them through thick and thin. And all of the good reasons were given for doing so- "the IRS won't let us take care of her".

Funny how nobody called them on this junk, at least publically (at least that I am aware of). The underlings were left to deal with it- "well, God just showed him what MIGHT have happened if.." Cripe, anybody can guess at what MIGHT happen.

"If you leave, you will end up dying a lone and miserable death, your daughter will become a basket case" never happened to one famous poster here.

For their corn cob outfit to have any chance of success, they somehow have to maintain the appearance that they actually have some kind of power over the followers.

Funny how when they can't avert disaster in a follower's life, it is never the "averter's" fault. It is ALWAYS the follower's sin, unbelief, or other such nonsense. "He died because he worked in such a dark place". Unbelievable!

I don't see how anybody puts up with it anymore. There is zero accountability.

Galen, that makes some sense. But they usually did not stop there. Whatever happened to the dire predictions of disaster? Like, the world is coming to an end in 1976, or Y2K.

Usually along with the supposed prediction, an utterance was mumbled under breath about something like "unless people rise up" or other such nonsense. When the disaster DID NOT occur, this would also validate the great importance of their great "ministry in operation" that averted it.

And innies swallowed it, hook line and sinker.

Ha ha ha.. Johnny, in other circles I think it is called "red herring".

Thanks for the kind comment everyone. Kit, the "happy new year" was pretty "cool". My kids have read some of the stuff I came up with this year, they tell me that maybe I am having a little too much fun, heh heh.

Well, before going to a friends and consuming a moderate amount of tequila, I want to wish you folks a happy new year.

I have not had a real pleasant year, but time spent here has been the most fun I have had for a long time.

My only regret is that I do not know a lot of you folks as well as I would like. I suppose that is just an internet thing though.

Happy new year!

Seriously, you may have a real valid point there. with the code of silence, and the real strange doctrines that were embraced only (or mostly) by "the inner circle", anything is possible.