Naten00

Sorry, I thought this thread was dead. Yeah... Great convo... I would like to add that Ehrman's friendly counterpart is Daniel Wallance and I have a mentor, someone who went to class with them in Seminary studying under Bruce Medzker (can't promise)... That they both encourage diving in on your own even though they are two opposites in the topic of religion. I love the questioning!

Yes it is Dr. Robertson. I really enjoy his approach to theology and teaching. It is a breath of fresh air when compared to when I went to one of my undergrad colleges that was a fundamental baptist college.

I know it has been awhile since I posted a blog up on here... But it isn't about Jesus Christ is not God... I posted my first paper for my masters class explaining my approach to Theological Reflection. I am curious on how people who have come out of the way challenged their "orthodox" views of the Way and/or the reverse going into the way if you where witnessed into it... What doctrines got to you.. What made you start thinking with a more unbiased bent? What was the ah-ha moments that got you or got you out of the way in regards to orthodoxy? My paper isn't that long it is rather short... I look forward to your responses! THEOLOGICAL ORTHODOXY LINK

I just have had personal experience from people who come out of the way feel bad or try not to say one person teaches "falsely"

I am talking about being outside of the Way and to be offened by other people saying such and such tv preacher or what ever is teaching false doctrine and is so a false teacher... Leading people astray...

I have question.... Is it common for people who leave the way or any other organization like it to not be able to, have problems with or whatever to call out a false teacher or something like it?

Just want to thank everyone for their input! It has been a great help!

Steve, That sounds great look forward to connecting... I will just keep on keeping in touch! Small World huh! WordWolf sorry for the little info.. I wish I could cut and past the ummm cutting and pasting.... Isaiah 14:12-17 some stuff on that linking it with Gen 1:1,2 Isaiah 45:18, Jeremiah 4:23... Satan is blamed for the whole without form and void thing Just keeps going on and on and on... He misuses the word for filament I looked it up on several hebrew dictionaries and it seems to mean something of a metal bow or a metal structure is where it comes from... Seems to parallel many of the religious traditions of the time... He also misrepresents the Big Bang Theory... not surprising calling it "chaos" That is a loose way of looking at that theory.. I think waysider answered some of it but I am going to have to chew on that stuff if you have anymore to add that would be awesome!

The Genesis 1:1,2 for was... VPW saying it "became" form and without void It seemed the word could be read multiple ways... I am going to ask my Hebrew prof what he thinks of the word The whole faces of the deep thing.... How did Lucifer make the first heaven?? I don't know... So much odd stuff in here...

Great when I get home.. I will post them..

In class the other day we were going over Creation... So I posted something on FB and my wife had me look through her foundational class binder to understand where people are coming from... I didn't really understand it totally. I was wondering how you guys dealt with these points in the red binder? Any pointers you can give to me? Thanks Nate

That is very interesting Steve... Gave me some thoughts to chew on!

I am apart of the Assemblies of God for the time being I don't know what will happen when going to AU... What they teach, every believer has "the gift of tongues" at the time of conversion of their new birth.. In any since everything is a "gift" just like faith. It seems to be more semantics when looking at the two different doctrines closely...

Thanks Steve... I will be looking forward to it. I see a people in the way post often about how it is a manifestation rather than a gift.... (off-topic 2 secs) I am going over JC isn't God right now as you know so I don't have the time to dig into it. I just published my newest blog on John 8:58 and ended with an interesting point to myself. I may post it here in a few days. I am going to do my thesis on something surrounding the Greek Philosophical and Historical impact on the New Testament writings. IF you are able to have visitors or make it to campus to visit lets get some coffee. I would love to hear your story! I can bring some food and leave out the bananas! Back on topic... That seems to get very deep. If you find some quick quotes and facts I can look at showing factual differences it would be great if you could send them my way..

Has anyone done any work countering there view on this?

I don't know if this is "off-topic" or not since you said it was more than one topic but... Looking over this thread made me ask since never being in "the way". People in the way call it a manifestation where in church they call it a "gift" or "the gift"... I am trying to understand the distinction... Any help? If off topic just let me know if you were not going in this direction Thanks Nate

Hello again, I have changed my website and domaine name as I am switching gears in my life going to Anderson University to get an MA in Biblical Studies. This blog entry over Jesus Christ is not God coverers Weirwille's basic objection to the Deity of Christ. Jesus Christ in God's Foreknowledge Link www.thethinkershouse.com/blog Let me know what you think! Nate

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.” 52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?” Yes like everyone they didn't like what Jesus was saying... Anyone would think you were nuts saying what Jesus was saying... 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” Here Jesus is saying Abraham looked forward to seeing Jesus daying being at that moment in time... 57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” They put 2 and 2 together... Making the right next questioning statement because if Jesus ONLY existed starting from his birth that is impossible to know 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus then gives the answer to their most logical response... A lot better translation than "Before Abraham was, I am" This is the greek rendering in the text πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι the word γενεσθαι means to come into existence It is the aorist middle infinitive form of the verb γινομαι the words εγω ειμι εγω is I and ειμι meaning to be or to exist... It is the same phrase used in the Septuagint the Old Testament in Greek created 200 bc when God says I am that I am in hebrew it means I exist that I exist... So Jesus answers their question with a statement of origin... The reason why Jesus uses the present verb ειμι after say "Before Abraham came into existence" is because he was making the statement of being present at the moment in time in order to observe Abrahams actions... Because that is the context for εγω ειμι. So it would be Before Abraham came into existence, I exist There just isn't another way to read it in the immediate context... Unlike my trinitarian colleagues I don't think this statement proclaims him being God.. I think the only thing you can grasp from this is that Jesus thought he existed before Abraham...

I was starting off with the clearer verses with a point that we can't force any verse over another. For example John 8:58 "Before Abraham was I AM" Jesus was in a heated discussion with those who were fallowing him and after wards threw stones at him... The greek rendition of this verse goes as follows. πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι Literally translated "Prior to abraham came into existence I exist." The phrase εγω ειμι is the emphatic use of the word ειμι Jesus is proclaiming existence before Abraham came into being. It doesn't matter how many times Jesus prayed to God. This statement is an emphatic true or false statement. Jesus also said in John 17:5 in His prayer to the father "Father give me the glory I had with you before the world existed" How does foreknowledge have glory with the father? It can't The usages of foreknowledge are of events or of those who are called... You can still foreknow someone and them exist. Both literally must both be true at the same time.... Jesus said he pre-existed... He may not have claimed to be God... But he definitely claimed to be present before the world was here.

It wasn't on there at first.. I have to put http:// before the www. for it to show.... The more you know :)

It didn't add it... hold on I updated it... But I can't get it to hyper link

I was challenged by people in the way for me to review this book in my blog that I am using to promote the ministry that I am apart of. I asked the moderator if it was of to post the link here and start a discussion on the topics that come up as I dissect the arguments in this book to honestly look for the truth. If you read my March blog it explains fully why I am doing what i am doing. So please read it and share it with others on other social media like facebook and twitter! I ask people read what I wrote and then discuss on this thread what they think on the certain topics that I am talking about in regards to the book Jesus Christ is Not God... If you can add your email to the list for updates and comment on my site if you feel incline :anim-smile:/>/>/> here is the web site www.iupuixa.org/grace-and-truth.html www.iupuixa.org/grace-and-truth.html www.iupuixa.org/grace-and-truth.html Thanks Nate

What I am saying Tom is that we error on either side... I have had many experiences that would be called spiritual where it is the experiencing of demonic activity or the supernatural work of God in my own body (nothing like TWI but more like Acts stuff)... The problem is that I can make the mistake of having my own experiences effect my interpretation. On the flip side I know many who interpret this subject through I have not seen it so it must not be true. I have had professors tell me miracles do not happen today they died with the apostles... Kinda hard for me to accept when I have seen them and I am not talking about coincidences. To me to think that Paul is talking about regular human languages when addressing this issue seems to be missing somthing.. It is like when Jesus says when the Spirit comes it will baptize with fire and then say well it is just a good feeling he didn't really mean fire or anything supernatural? Really? Such a powerful word for just a feeling? I think we do the same thing in regards to tongues or languages... Obviously the congregates didn't know what others where saying and Paul spoke it (at least he thought he did) more than anyone else. I think to downplay either Acts 2 or anything involving tongues is taking away something the text is communicating... Unless you just don't believe what it says is true...

Steve thanks for the insights. It may take me awhile to go through... I find we tend to interprit the supernatural with our own experiences rather than what really scriptural teaches... I guess that is really hard to do to mold those two books of life. But what I can say reading some of the stuff posted against speaking in other languages or of angels it just seems to ignore that those around them thought they were speaking in another language or an unknown language... Steve is there a way to get a copy of your thesis when it is completed?

I am interested in this thread Steve can I ask when you write greek out you use the language and not transliterate... It makes it easier when comparing notes and looking it up in my Greek NT... If you have a Mac your keyboard can become a Greek Keyboard! Hope all is well Steve