Naten00

just share this with you my wife feels the same way.... she previously being in the way says she understands but she has a hard time it is Christ like to call anyone names... I do think in some way it is like a self help group people venting but with those verses I think there is a balance and with our interactions as in the words of Paul if we have no love we are a resounding gong.

I know I have a biased..... I never was in the way but all of my interactions other than having family relations as in hanging out as family like they are good to me in such. Every interaction I have had with someone in the way was negative... I try not to you know come in with prejudice but it is hard... most of it is because of what Word Wolf was speaking of. There is no listening to the other person. It is like you have to 100% agree with them or your an idiot and you can't be friends... That may be just my limited perception and I may be wrong but I am only speaking from my experience many times the truth superior view molds into other areas of discussion as well. so I do have a hard time not coming into the convo on the defensive because of prior experience.. I know Christ calls me to be forgiving and to let things go..... it is just so hard. Adding to that.... my heart goes out to all of you who have been truly hurt by TWI.

There is nothing in the revelation texts to suggest figurative use of fire.... Also in my NT quotes above both from mark 25 and 9 having Jesus calling hell real and eternal.. Jesus used the word πυρ fire It is a logical fallacy to say since fire is figurative in one place... It is figurative everywhere else like in acts.. All uses of fire in hell that I have read the context inferred literal fire and literal eternal time. I do have a understanding of NT Greek and The books I have read most say that the use of fire is literal Jesus used imagery to show that not everyone was going to heaven... I am not at my computer so I can't look it up but I trust you guys can find them 1st Jesus said the road to life is narrow and very few find it. 2nd Not everyone who says to me Lord will make it into heaven 3rd The example of the seed interacting with the rock,thorns, good soil and others there are other examples of Jesus claiming not everyone will make it.. I think it is a good start. How do theses compare with the famous John 3:16? I go back and forth on this topic because they almost contradict each other.... I understand free will... But it does baffle me.

I think it is a far stretch to say that the use of πυρ in Rev 21:8 is meaning a purifying fire. When compared to other verses such as Mat 13:50 And 2532 shall cast 906 them 846 into 1519 the furnace 2575 of fire4442: there 1563 shall be 2071 wailing 2805 and 2532 gnashing 1030 of teeth 3599. Mat 25:41 Then 5119 shall he say 2046 also 2532 unto them on 1537 the left hand 2176, Depart 4198 from 575 me 1700, ye cursed 2672 , into 1519 everlasting 166 fire4442, prepared 2090 for the devil 1228 and 2532 his 846 angels 32: Mar 9:45 And 2532 if 1437 thy 4675 foot 4228 offend 4624 thee 4571, cut 609 0 it 846 off 609 : it is 2076 better 2570 for thee 4671 to enter 1525 halt 5560 into 1519 life 2222, than 2228 having 2192 two 1417 feet 4228 to be cast 906 into 1519 hell 1067, into 1519 the fire4442 that never shall be quenched 762: I am come 2064 to send 906 fire4442 on 1519 the earth 1093; and 2532 what 5101 will I 2309 , if 1487 it be 381 0 already 2235 kindled 381 ? The use of πυρι translated (with fire) is just simple meaning the word fire. Its usage of the word but the definition does not change. It is the direction of the definition. It just seems to me the use of πυρ is commonly used as fire and if it were to be used as purifying fire it would need to have it in the context... That it is not in this case. Then Jesus spoke about the lake of fire Other depictions of hells eternal uses Jesus speaks of this fire in Mark 9:45 saying that it shall never be quenched. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB95) 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, Jude 7 (NASB95) 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 12–13 (NASB95) 12 These are the men who are 1hidden reefs ain your love feasts when they feast with you bwithout fear, caring for themselves; cclouds without water, dcarried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, 2doubly dead, euprooted; 13 awild waves of the sea, casting up btheir own 1shame like foam; wandering stars, cfor whom the 2black darkness has been reserved forever. Revelation 20:10 (NASB95) 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 14:11 (NASB95) 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” The word for forever and ever in the greek is αιωνας των αιωνων it could also be translated ages of ages. The description of the lake of fire is enduring and on going... Mark the verses you posted for πυρ is just the usage of the word fire and in the context of Revelations fires meaning is literal fire and nothing anything else.. The duration of the fire needs to picked up from the context not the word itself. Brimstone greek word Θειον I don't think brimstone is an indication of purification either... Jesus used it in Luk 17:29 in reference to Lot "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all." KJV Also if brimstone was use of purification why would it be used in conjunction with the devil, beast and false prophets in Rev 20:10? " And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" Here we have again the lake of fire used with Eternal properties and including the devil, the beast and false prophet... Even more brimstone is used in the same sentence as for ever and ever... There is nothing to suggest that brimstone is a purifying symbol.

I think there are two areas of thought that is evolving from this thread of the topic of the idiom of permission. In some ways these two areas are iner twin. 1 How knowable or how much can we understand God and the methods he reveals to us.. 2 Did Jesus die for everyone and if he did does this mean everyone can be saved... I am not home but possibly some can post some of the comments and make a sub topic thread? If that is possible?

I would say there is a difference between Jesus coming to save everyone and who actually accepts it... Jesus was very clear that very few find the road to life.

I have been told that from people in the way... I talked with a guy for hours he told me that.... he wanted to talk about the deity of Christ...... That guy had so much error ant pride telling me he knew more than people who went to seminary and they teach junk their....

Mabie I should shell out the bucks to take one.... I wonder if they will give you ur money back if they kick you out???

I really do not see any evidence in the wording to suggest that the devil did the evils... I think of the plagues by God and God thwarting the free will of Pharaoh and God saying he is doing this for His name sake.... He drowned a lot of people and killed a lot of 1st borns.. Or when Habakkuk was complaining to God about the sin of Israel and God said he was going to do something that...... NO ONE would beleive... He said he was going to send the Chaledians for punishment.... I do not see anything to suggest the devil was behind anything... Lamintations 3: 37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? 39 Why should the living complain when punished for their sins? God has made it pretty clear that nothing happens without His approval. Even if the devil was behind it in the OT God knew it and allowed it.... He did nothing to stop it when He could have... I do not understand God But to say calamities do not come from God is to say that The Prophet Jeremiah was not speaking for Him.

I know I started this thread but....... I don't want to start something to derail what we are talking about, but..... when ever someone in TWI refers to the headquarters or the HQ..... I have a picture in my head of Dr. Evil feeding the spy to sharks with lasers on their heads..... Is that wrong or am I on to something?

http://believerbob.blogspot.com/2010/03/bars-closed-on-st-patricks-day.html#links If the info in this is true..... I assume that it would be one of those things they would not partake in.... Any comments?

I think your list is just a few of the things missing in TWI doctrine... It seems in TWI theology those concepts do not exist. Without it you can't understand the faith described in scripture or why the apostles had that non-abundant life.

I don't know any of the apostles who had an abundant life in the way the THE WAY defines abundant...... But for some reason the "apostle" VPW had an abundant life.... Just seems odd.

Is this what you are talking about..... Someone posted this on FB http://cardullo.zenfolio.com/events/sowers2012/h3E5DFA77#h3e5dfa77

Oldskool the more I read people's post here the more and more I feel like the guys in your picture looking down and making fun of a bunch of muppets...

Really..... I almost don't believe it... Are you saying that is held by the branch leader or the whole of TWI?

KJV is not the best translation knowing they added a few words and some of the way they translated it seems to be wrong. but it still does not change anything doctrinally as most Trinitarian apologetics do not rely only the common joe uses those verses. In the debates I have heard/watched they don't use those references on those passages altered in the KJV. It is odd how most cults will ONLY use the KJV. ESV is my preferred translation but to be literal learn Koine Greek... I have learned many Greek concepts and ideas do not translate well into English as even the usage of the words have changed. If only these groups learned it on their own it would not be an issue...

Are sowers some sort of splinter group or branch under the way?

Thanks geisha.... My in laws always start the rhetoric " the rightly divided word says that babies in the womb are not alive" I never understood there failed logic till I read their abuse of scripture..... Someone ought to file charges for abuse.... For how they interpreted those scriptures.... What is sad is how people sit there, listen too it and then hang on there every word.

Who do you think this new religious market is????

I told my wife the whole story and I could see the heart break in her face... she was not surprised... it does make sence when telling her family still in the way we want to adopt and possibly have no children of our own... theyjust can't understand why we would choose something that could cause a lot of hard ache and pain.... If that is what they are teaching people I can now understand... Sorry you had to go through that.

I do think it is imperative to have a very good clear definition and understanding of the words... If you can alter any definition you can scew any verse and derail it.... I find that a common situation. For example the word προς in john 1:1 as vpw defines it is very different from the scholars and teachers I know and read have defined it. You can change the whole dynamics of what is being said... Or my wife and I were visiting a church known for their use of Greek usage in sermons defined a word in the sermon to mean something of repentance and then My wife tells me immediately me that the defined that word in the opposite. I think having the exact definition is very important. any religions scripture that can not be trusted to be from god can be manipulated in its form.

I was telling my wife about this and I told the story wrong.... She wondered if you were married at the time?

If only we had an......... Wait fooor it....... It's coming.... an easy button.

I am wondering about the new discovery that was found.... A FIRST CENTURY fragment of Mark with six other sources like sermons from Pauls letters and such... I wonder what they will do what that in their research? WIll they still hold that the gospels were written in Aramaic? What if....... the early second century sermons..... say something opposite to how they "accurately divide the word".... In any case I can't wait for them to come out so I can make the determination myself. Here is an interview with one the the scholars... http://www.hughhewitt.com/transcripts.aspx?id=2ae35594-18e1-4776-bd4a-ca8f77c4deb6