Naten00

That may be it... In the right city anyway.... I find it comical I clicked on the link and the first thing that comes up is the Anti- Santa Christmas Jargon same stuff we are discussing on another thread. Some things change and some things just never change.... Thanks for the help I will be looking into it!

Is there a splinter group that is web based? Runs everything on the internet even their fellowships (or whatever they call them in his group). I had a convo with a guy who was apart of one who said they run it on the internet.

It surprised my wife to find out that the Christian Churches do not teach he was born on December 25th and all of the other errors you can come up with the commercialized Jesus scene..... Rather the discussion is vastly complex with different theories... I posted a quote on my Facebook from Ignatius in his letter to the Ephesians saying the star was an inexpressible light.... My question to my FB family was that could it be that maybe it was not an arangment of planets but it could be..... oh.... may it not be........a........ Miracle! I don't know the answer. I wasn't just speaking about TWI I was speaking about all of the theories people have put forth (not trying to bring the subject up) but I was thrown down many posts of the good ole Sept 11th 3 B.C. by my friends of TWI. My wife explained to me that 1st TWI taught her that God always obeys the laws of this universe and everything is explainable...... and Concerning saying Marry Christmas they called it in her Fellowship happy ho ho days or something like that.... Marry Christmas was forbidden... The whole concept of being lied to that the church taught a such inaccurate view of scripture in accordance to scripture was a wall falling down..... To me as I look at it She is still learning to enjoy the festivities that were looked down upon in TWI.... I am sure she isn't alone.

We are also still friends even when we disagree... We will not mark you nor avoid you! Just hang out with us for awhile!

From an outsider with family who are deeply involved with the way and splinter groups this is an excellent place to gather information and make great friends who can inform you on the workings of TWI... To have an understanding on what it takes to move beyond TWI. Opening of the eye's of what really happens at TWI. Questions are welcomed here and will not be frowned on.

Is there a good review on the Author of the book The Way: Living in Love?

I am not really talking about if God wants us to be afraid of him or not... It really isn't my main point. Although I would agree with you also that God wants us to love him and such... I don't see a contradiction between love and fear. What I am saying is that every person who came into contract with God was either fearful or more often terrified of Him. More often than not God, Jesus (in his glorified body) or an angel had to say do not be afraid... It would not make since for fear to mean respect... In those instances people where afraid naturally. So since all of scripture gives an experience of fear to the point of terror in many cases the conclusion must be when coming into contact with God or Jesus (in glorified body) we will be afraid of him in the full since of the word. That is the experience..... Then if you add in the commands to fear God in scripture as I already gave or that Steve gave already... I think it is very clear that God expects a fearful response... Not out of response for fearing hell but rather in fear of him because of Who He is not what He would do. To note I am going to try not to give long responses to everything as I get lost nor do I have the time to write them...

I will not be able to give a response till about Monday... I am out of town... God bless

King James Version (KJV) 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Fear Should come upon us when doing what they did. When coming to the full understanding who we are. Luke 7:15-16 King James Version (KJV) 15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. 16And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. I would be afraid of the man who raised someone from the dead.... You can glorify someone and fear them at the same time. Luke 1:64-65 King James Version (KJV) 64And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God. 65And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea. Fear came on all of them... I see it as real fear... Seems to happen when someone sees miracles Matthew 28:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you. 8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. I don't see a contradiction in your verses. In the definition of fear. To note I did read them the first time I was giving my point of view before I went to bed. I wasn't trying to offend you in any manner by not addressing the verses. I was speaking from my heart and what i have studied. Again and I didn't read you addressing my points of John falling in fear of Jesus... Jesus didn't say do not be afraid because he was reverencing him.... I think the context is clear... I mean if the apostle John the one whom Jesus loved died as if dead out of fear to the glorified Christ post Pentecost.... WHy do I think I am going to operate any differently? This was was not a one time occurrence... Isaiah did and thought he was going to die... At the mount of transfiguration Peter was so scared coming into contact of the glorified Christ and God that he started to say lets put of houses for you out of fear as the text says. When I read or view the picture I see about the interaction of all the prophets, apostles, people who came into contact with God as these examples it dosn't look like a respect, awe or reverence. It looks like they were terrified. To say that these incidences where reverence and awe just doesn't fit the description. I never said we serve out of of fearful obedience. I said our fear comes out of realizing who we are like Isaiah said " I am a man of unclean lips".... God says it's ok I will clean you. Seeing who God is... Just his presence will cause fear... Because he is holy. The concept of God being Holy is huge. God is Holy, Holy, Holy.... That is why I fear him....

What are mailings? What do the acronyms mean? My wifes uncle is apart of Spirit and Truth Fellowsihp... To me I don't see any different than TWI. FYI Don't tell them that they think they are out of the cult thinking freeliy..... while they still call me religious as they adhere to their religious dogma. I do find it funny that on there Truth vs Tradition video on You Tube that they monitor responses. They didn't accept mine.....

I posted my fear God response in the forum...

In proverbs it says Proverbs 19:23 The fear of the LORD leads to life, and whoever has it rests satisfied; he will not be visited by harm. Our ultimate peace is that we really know who God is... We can't understand who God is until we fear Him... Not in he will strike me down for cussing but for his holiness. As Isaiah did... "I am a man with unclean lips". No one deserves salvation... No one..... as good old Romans 3 points out... This is where the fear comes from.... an acknowledgement of who we are and who God is. We should fear him... It makes since... The issue is that we will never understand the Love of God until we know God. We won't know the distance we are form Him until we look into the mirror and see our own sin... That is what repentance is... The hard key element I see missing from TWI... An acknowledgement of our own sin and falling down to our knees in total naked abandonment saying I can't do it and he is faithful to forgive... What a Joy it is that we have forgiveness. I think Steve said something about being in the right relationship... He is so right... We can't have the right relationship when we understand where we stand or stood. That will cause fear, sadness, grief, guilt.... Because I fear this God who loves me enough to die for me (not here to argue that it is what I believe) I now understand the power of my God and who is ultimately in control... It isn't about me and never was... It is about this being who is so much more than me. Yet this God whom I fear Loves me and He protects me even when it seems all is lost. Oh, do I find peace and Joy in it. I don't understand why fearing God that will sometimes bring me to my knees but I find peace and comfort in it.

The issue is not with English it is with the greek! The word φοβος is the greek word for fear at least thats what they teach you when learning greek. Granted when you look up the word it says respect although not used in scripture because I don't see the context in many of the passages as respect... There are words for respect in the greek like απονεμω meaning to cause respect to treat with respect (with respect, as desvered) Str 642. 1791. ἐντροπή entropē; from 1788; respect, shame:—shame(2). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. Here are some words for REVERENCE δέος deos; from δείδω deidō (to fear); fear, reverence:—awe(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. εὐλαβέομαι eulabeomai; from 2126; to be cautious:—reverence(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. εὐλάβεια eulabeia; from 2126; caution:—piety(1), reverence(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. 2152. εὐσεβής ĕusĕbēs, yoo-seb-ace´; from 2095 and 4576; well-reverent, i.e. pious:—devout, godly. . A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. 2318. θεοσεβής thĕŏsĕbēs, theh-os-eb-ace´; from 2316 and 4576; reverent of God, i.e. pious:—worshipper of God. Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. 5091. τιμάω timaō, tim-ah´-o; from 5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by impl. to revere:—honour, value. Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc. It seems to me that if God wanted it to be something other than fear he could of found a less confusing word. Unless it isn't confusing and when it says fear it says and I am sorry for the pun... "Says what it means".... If only VPW took his own advice. When Jesus said "fear the one who has the power to throw you into hell and destroy it" He dosen't stop there. Jesus reiterates the point "Yes fear Him"... This isn't some respect or awe. None of the other words really even make sense in that story. As I illuded above with the word φοβος Jesus is saying it literally fear God... Another thing to look at are peoples reactions to God or the glorified Jesus. I can't think of anyone who didn't tremble before them... John for example fell down as if dead... This is the one whom Jesus Loved. Jesus said do not be afraid. It wouldn't make since to say "Do not respect".. Johns natural reaction like everyone else in the bible was to fall down in fear of God. Why do I think I am going to act any different than the apostle John post pentecost? It just seems arrogant to assume anything other than that.

I can't add anything.,,,, I agree 100%... My wife coming out of The Way she says she was saved and such,,,,,, I tell her the whole fear thing being left out is central to coming to Christ. How do you really know God unless you fear Him? How do you know His love for you unless you fear Him? I explained to her that I see no repentance in TWI. No total abandon of our sinful nature and recognizing who we really are. I can be wrong.... When I look at scripture and the idea of Lordship of Christ and the Fear of God that brings us to our knees before a Holy God... Is just no where to be found. So I can't biblically agree that it is possible to have a true saving faith with TWI doctrine. Most denominations in Christianity have these common elements of repentance not in TWI. So it would make since of the adultery and sexual abuse of the former leader as covered in the last Thread and in this one of copying works by his successors and not giving credit when do... If you don't have a fear of God.... What does it matter?

I am just curious you seem to be very pro-TWI and pro-vpw.... Why do you come to GSC when the purpose of it is to help people walk away from what you are in support of.... If you Don't support TWI or VPW ummmm what do you like or dislike about each? Clear up my own ignorance....

I think you added the missing piece Steve... It takes a spoon full of sugar (or more) to help the "medicine" go down... If you get my analogy.

John your work helped my wife work through stuff getting out of the way and me help her... I showed Ginger how VPW would redefine words like accuracy in order to wash the brain.... You can't say that the bible is accurate because of how many people died with Christ on the cross... That is showing how accurate HIS PRIVATE INTERPRETATION in. In order to show if the bible is accurate is to either show how it's prophesies are true or to show the historical reliability of the text.. Not some notion he conjures up that is only shown within the text itself.

I do find it interesting when speaking to people in the way and them telling me how much they researched the church and I then ask them about Calvinism or Arminianism. They give me a blank stair... They ask what that is.. I tell first what it is ( basically two views on free will in the church) and then ask how can it be you have researched all the falsehood that religion teaches and you have no idea what those two complex ideas that have divided the church for centuries? As if those on there outside sit around and blindly take orders from the pope of any church.. Ironic is that they worship the ground of a sex offender while mocking the catholic church. o they sit in their elusive club. listening to their king. I see the deception or blindfold over their eyes created by a man with lust for power and sex. This still grabs hold of many...

For being new what does LCM stand for?

I don't think its just protestant fundamentalism you can be a fundamentalist in almost anything.... I think it is just the washing of the brain of ideas like " No one can go beyond what he is taught" and someone who has been wowed by the philosophy presented in the Universities today would be easily taken by such a statement. Because it is so abstract of a statement that it doesn't make since so it sounds amazing.

How is a NASA mathematician in TWI? hummmmmmmmmmm.

being a non-wayfer and my wife an X one.... I think it was last year we went with her mom and her fellowship to look at Jupiter or whatever near christmas. Because of the book "Jesus Christ our Promised seed" Well I read some of it. I didn't have much time to research it or the other Ideas. I just noticed that there was a lot on the subject a lot of qualified people saying this year or that year... General consensus would be September or early October of the other sources. No one really gave a date sept 11 and time of day 6pm tp 9pm. He may be right but he can also be wrong... I don't think there is enough information on such a non-important issue... It shocked my wife that most christians do not believe that Jesus was born on the 25th. At least the ones that I grew up with and that is what they taught in BIble school. A family relative asked what I thought of the book. She told her that I read other sources that disagreed with VPWs findings. She said that VPW was more qualified than most.. My wife tried to explain to her that these people where experts in either history and or astrology. She wouldn't hear anything of it. Blind obedience to VPW. I talked to another guy about the book he said it is impossible for the book to be wrong because it is done with maps and astrology and I said so did the other people.... I said possibly his math might be off. It is amazing the facade that they teach people in "The Way" about people in church and what they teach. I knew prior to my wife about the general falseness of Christmas stories told by our media and consumer society. The problem is that it seems "The Way" brands it as the church doing it. In either case it can be frustrating. Nate

That is exactly what my wife said.... She said she wouldn't go into his errors in Herminutics.... Greek and Hebrew or his scrupulous history of a "Dr" degree. Although simply go through the scriptural qualifications of a leader through Timothy and Titus. Lets face it any man jumping up and down like a child hardly fits the self control category..

Isn't that what was going on in chapter 8 of John in regards to Abraham? They claimed Abraham was on their side and then Jesus turned it on them and said he knew Abraham.... Then it basically went down hill from there as they picked up rocks.