T-Bone

Hmmmm…can’t tell the difference between harmful / abusive cult-leaders and the Son of God who sacrificed himself to save others? That statement by the ex FBI guy is another boring natural man's take on spiritual matters. If narcissistic was a word at the time of Christ, or when KJV was produced, then Jesus would have been called that. The concept of narcissism is clearly explained in the Bible - and Jesus Christ stands in stark contrast to self-centered ravenous wolves like wierwille: Ezekiel 34: 1–24 NIV Matthew 9: 35-38 NIV Luke 15: 1-7 NIV John 10: 1-21 NIV II Peter 2 NIV Matthew 23 ESV Matthew 7: 15-20 ESV The distinction between narcissistic cult-leaders like wierwille and Jesus Christ is clearly defined in the Bible. Nice try to obfuscate the difference between good and evil, johniam - though your posts reveal a lot about your inability to discern truth from lies and good from evil. It might be you’re still trapped in a narrow minded attitude that evil narcissistic cult-leaders (wierwille & Craig) encouraged.

I’ve never had those experiences.

Please expound on the difference between being ignorant (aware) of evil or (D'evil) and displacing your attention on and love for God and your neighbor with obsession w/D'evil. Then, please clarify how this (YOUR words from Wednesday afternoon) is awareness and not obsession: It's just information given in God's word, which I am aware of, not necssarily obsessed about. You seem to exhibit the same deviant thinking as wierwille the cult-leader: speculate and extrapolate from a verse about the devil , taking it to the point that it explains why people disagree with you - “they’re tricked by the devil.” You assume YOUR obsession is awareness. It is not! wierwille would also emphasize love God and neighbor and then say as long as you do that you can do whatever you want. The problem? Without any criteria - like don’t lie or steal from God or neighbor- One can assume they love God and neighbor. You’re using yourself as a standard of reference.

And VPW didn't make money of whatever he himself flogged in the bookstore? Of "his" many publications? Off PFAL books themselves, as well as the PFAL class? And didn't Craig continue that same means of raising money? Raising money is not a sin, in and of itself. Billy Graham was a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet he made money by furthering communism, which is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I saw Orel Roberts on the Donahue show back in the 80s. Poor guy was getting flamed by Donahue and some of the audience. They thought it was wrong for him to charge money for his hospital, or whatever it was. Orel said in a very deadpan tone, "It'd be pretty hard to pay the electric bills without money." Many of you are never going to agree with me (even before I post it). One could argue that..well, then let's just agree to disagree. One could also argue that...the cream rises to the top, even in the form of words. The bible has risen to the top 2,000 years and counting. Let's keep airing these things out. Charging for a legitimate hospital is permissible... charging for an ACCREDITED college is legit. Charging for a college that one claims is accredited BUT is not - is dishonest! Charging for a class and books made from plagiarized material is dishonest and illegal. I agree to disagree cream rises to the top? delusional wierwille probably thought his bull-$hit didn’t stink.

I’ve lost count of the number of commentaries, study Bibles, systematic theologies and specific studies by legitimate scholars and theologians that I've read, drilling down into Romans 13. the consensus - even across different theological ‘pedigrees’ is that Romans 13 speaks to one of the institutions decreed by God for the benefit of the social creatures He created. As an extension of the gift of free will and involving the responsibility of stewardship God has left a lot of things up to humankind as far as how to manage social life...just as in giving humankind freedom of will - God allowed people to form societies and set up governments. But no matter what form of government they set up - it involves people who have free will. Even the best political system and well-intentioned politicians can screw up things. that's reality. This is also noteworthy: Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience…Romans 13:5 NIV In essence – Paul is saying accept the authority of your government and it’s something each person must decide according to what they believe is morally right. That makes me think of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in Daniel 3 , and the heroes mentioned in the hall of fame in Hebrews 11 NIV like “By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.” ~ ~ ~ ~ Romans 13 does not endorse any particular type of government - such as a monarchy, democracy, communist, republic, etc. Paul wrote this while under the iron-fisted rule of the Roman Empire. I’ll leave extrapolating how one should behave under a particular government to the adults in the room who still have their powers of reason. How convenient - an incompetent, plagiarizing, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, drunkard, pathological liar, incorrigible thief, fake “Doctor” and megalomaniac like wierwille interprets Romans 13 as referring to gift ministries. Straight out of a harmful and controlling cult-leader’s playbook.

What’s sounds familiar is the paranoia that wierwille’s fixation and wild speculations with demonology - he didn’t know what he was talking about…he could take any Bible verse and twist the living truth out of it and then use that as a launching pad for bull-$hit.

have you heard the one about the terrorists posing as tourists? excerpts from a July 2021 article it mentions the ‘tourists’ at the Capitol on Jan.6. A lawmaker named Clyde described the rioters storming through the Capitol on January 6th appearing to look like a “normal tourist visit” during a committee meeting. Raskin, a member of the select panel, confronted Clyde during a Rules Committee meeting about his previous comments regarding the insurrection, in which he said people “would actually think it was a normal tourist visit” if they had not known the footage was from Jan. 6. “Do you stand by your statement that they were tourists?” Raskin asked Clyde. The lawmaker, however, refused to answer the question, claiming that Raskin had read an “interpretation” of his statement. Raskin then recited Clyde’s statement in full: “Watching the TV footage of those who entered the Capitol and walked through Statuary Hall showed people in an orderly fashion staying between the stanchions and ropes, taking videos and pictures. You know, if you didn’t know the TV footage was a video from January the 6th, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.” “Those are your words,” Raskin continued. “And I stand by that exact statement, as I said it,” Clyde responded. During the select committee hearing earlier Tuesday, several lawmakers had asked officers about comparisons made between the rioters and normal tourists. Metropolitan Police Department Officer Daniel Hodges repeatedly referred to the rioters as “terrorists” throughout his testimony when recounting his experience of defending the Capitol. When asked by Raskin during that hearing why he used the term “terrorists” to refer to the rioters, Hodges read directly from the U.S. code for domestic terrorism. Officer Hodges reads U.S. Code definition of domestic terrorism to explain why he calls Capitol rioters “terrorists” His response to Republicans comparing them to tourists: “If that’s what American tourists are like, I can see why foreign countries don’t like American tourists” Excerpts from: lawmaker defends ‘normal tourist visit’ comparison for Jan. 6 | The Hill

Hmmmm…can’t tell the difference between harmful / abusive cult-leaders and the Son of God who sacrificed himself to save others? Here’s a thought: maybe your people-picker is busted.

I agree with the sentiment of STL and you. Now - I don’t mean to give you a hard time – but since I felt like I was in a quandary several times when you’ve said this stuff – I would like some clarification and/or definitive answers. I have reported a few of Mike’s posts before and the moderators have responded in a timely manner to me saying he has not violated Grease Spot forum rules. So, I respectfully submit there are three parameters I would like explained: 1. The statement: “If Mike is consistently ignored” would require an agreement by all other Grease Spotters. Even if it was not a formal agreement – how do you get everyone on board with that agreement, verify everyone has been notified of it, and what is in place to orient newbies to Grease Spot? 2. Is it possible a Grease Spotter might zero-in on one or two points of Mike’s post to expose a fallacy for the benefit of other Grease Spot readers? I’ve witnessed several other Grease Spotters do just that and you don’t lecture them. And sometimes it’s after a whole slew of posts responding to Mike you step in with a general comment to all that implies some Grease Spotters know how to handle Mike and some don’t. I would like clarification on what is the protocol for communication in such situations. 3. What if a Grease Spotter doesn’t think their response to Mike is BS?

Good question! Come to think of it - I do remember some foreign exchange students who seemed very excited from my routine and would gesture toward me and say something in their native tongue…for all I know they could have been saying “ this clown is speaking the wonderful works of god.”

So mental assent is to intellectually accept something as true. If I ACT on that, it’s called believing. wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”. I accepted what he said as true - so in session 12 of PFAL , I stood up , licked my lips and was real natural - and performed the same comedic schtick I did in high school - faking a foreign language - usually Russian and Asian .

Concerning the Exodus - like other ancient stories - we may find similar sounding accounts in non-biblical sources. For instance in a Jerusalem Post article: “Bible scholars and especially archaeologists, if not most researchers, though, are skeptical that the narrative reflects historical events with any accuracy. They point to the lack of archaeological evidence in Egypt or in other locations mentioned in the story, as well as to the lack of records outside the Bible itself. However, according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department, some of his colleagues are making a fundamental mistake: They are looking for evidence of the Exodus in Egypt, instead of looking for marks of Egyptian culture in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses. “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,” Berman said. “The Lord freed us from Egypt by a mighty hand, by an outstretched arm and awesome power, and by signs and portents,” reads a verse in the book of Deuteronomy describing the Exodus. The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in the context of the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as these praises were used in Egypt as well. “When we look at inscriptions from the period of the New Kingdom, between 1500 and 1200 BCE, roughly the period of the enslavement, these expressions are routinely used to describe Pharaohs and their victories in battle, for instance, ‘Pharaoh defeated the Lybians with a mighty hand,’” he said. The image was employed to refer to Pharaoh in that specific time. That makes it unlikely the Israelites or a more recent biblical author would have been aware of it centuries later, Berman said.” From: Jerusalem Post article End of excerpts ~~~~ And I think we will find a similar flip-flop in cultural perspectives. On page 137 of The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, in an article titled “Yahweh’s Victory” it notes there are parallels between the description of Yahweh’s victory in Exodus 15 and the victory of Baal recorded in Ugaritic literature, in which the terrible and monstrous character “Sea” demands that the high god El hand Baal over to him as a prisoner - El complies - and later craftsman-god Kothar fashions 2 mighty clubs with which Baal defeats Sea. El then grants Baal a palatial residence on Mount Zaphon. In the Exodus account Yahweh too shows his mastery over the sea. By means of the victory there, Yahweh receives praise as the greatest among the gods. After the victory, Yahweh and the Israelites head for the mountain of God. End of excerpts from: NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible ~~~~ I think it is significant to find events with some similarities recorded in different cultures. Of course, It does not prove an event actually happened - if anything it shows the power and relevance of myths - even across different cultures. Myths have some point of origin. It’s probably impossible to figure out where and when some myths originated and to observe direct linkage across cultures. To me it’s like watching a mystery movie that at the end leaves a lot unexplained - and gets a lot of the audience talking.

Oh I absolutely get your point Raf! And I think you know me by now when I say a lot of my beliefs are in a state of flux already. The Jews might have it all right. YOU might have it all right - meaning there’s nothing beyond our five senses…. You know I highly respect your viewpoint …I usually pursue a vein of thinking until it appears to be a dead end…I really don’t know why I do…maybe I’m just wanting something more out of life. probably to some folks my posts look just as goofy as Mike’s. It doesn’t matter to me - there’s a method to MY madness bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Here’s my reasons for thinking Mike’s ‘thesis’ God’s Budget and Double Doors - On the Scarcity of Miracles is a bunch of bull$hit: 1.Tendency to obfuscate That mental assent versus real believing dichotomy is a smokescreen to tantalize the audience to look for more power and control – prosperity gospel preachers use this to sell followers on the illusion of the law of believing aka magical thinking…From the very beginning of humankind very little would have been accomplished if people didn’t believe in their ability to do something. That’s how stuff gets invented, built, troubleshoot & repaired, or create art and music…now maybe procrastination might be the closest thing to mental assent. Procrastination is waiting for the right time, inspiration or motivation “Yeah, I was going to look for a job today – but it looks like it might rain – downtown will be a mess. I’ll go next week.” ** ** ** ** 2.Tendency to overcomplicate Followers of TWI like other prosperity gospel adherents are inclined to make something more difficult than necessary. Per the trend toward point 1 obfuscation, these ‘believers’ may have the toughest time troubleshooting the problem. What is needed is to demystify the concepts. There’s been a lot of discussion on Grease Spot about the fictious law of believing – some of the most notable work is on OldSkool’s thread on Law of Believing …which inspired me to draft a few posts on commonplace believing versus religious faith – this one is probably my most concise > T-Bone's post on changed positions on doctrine Sept. 25th 2022 8:58 PM . You can check out those hyperlinks for an expansion of this – but to summarize my thoughts here: to simplify the convoluted, a clear straightforward definition is needed to distinguish between a mental function that anyone can do and the attitude of someone who trusts in God. In both instances simple believing (which anyone can do) is involved – the difference is the object or target of believing – which leads us to point 3 promotes a misplaced faith. ** ** ** ** 3. Promotes a misplaced faith When we don’t get what we want, or things don’t turn out the way we were expecting it does not automatically mean we lack faith. Disillusionment and disappointment might be a sign of misplaced faith. Faith is interwoven with our relationship with God. This point is limited to defining what Christians do with their faith. This is not a thesis on Bible kinds of faith, like in the faith of 1 Corinthians 12:9 . As I hinted in point 2, the object or target of our faith is the key. In TWI, I remember one-liners in teachings that said, “you’ve got to believe in your believing”. In the blue book, the chapter on Release From Your Prisons, wierwille uses a camera analogy to instruct us to get clear and focused on what we want. That becomes the object or target of your believing. In the real world of $hit that happens because of something you did – that principle works just fine. Say I want to be a guitarist…a good guitarist…a great guitarist. What do I do? Sit around all day looking at posters of Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, David Gilmour? Listen to their records and play air-guitar in front of the mirror to them? Well…you might begin that way…being inspired by others but it’s not magical thinking – you have to put in the effort…maybe take lessons…practice…practice…practice…you have to do stuff! (true confessions – I was about 10-years-old – I would go in my older brother’s bedroom when he was gone – he had a killer Pioneer stereo system – he didn’t mind if I played his records…I would put on a 45 like Walk like a Man by The Four Seasons - stand on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror over his desk and ‘play’ the badminton racket in front of the mirror – and I did the double-challenge of lip-syncing to the words and strumming the badminton racket at the same time – all you folks gloating over your chewing-gum-and-walking exploits can eat the badminton birdie – cuz I don’t need it – I’m too busy jamming in another universe…damn I was good! ) ** ** ** ** 4. Relies on a biased interpretation of the Bible Proponents of the law of believing are inclined to slant definitions of faith and what it’s used for according to some blank check or wish list. Mike said “it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing”. Where does it say that in the Bible? Let’s look at one account: 16“What are you arguing with them about?” he asked. 17 A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.” 19 “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” 20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth. 21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” “From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.” 23“ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.” 24Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” 25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” 26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up…Mark 9 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Jesus mentioned an unbelieving generation – which includes his ineffective disciples - the father’s request is a good example of a doubtful generation – and in the bigger picture, lack of faith is a recurring problem see Deuteronomy 32:20 and Numbers 14:11 . What is so cool about the father was that he admitted his inadequacy…Thinking a little more deeply about Mark 9, we should remember that in Mark 6 the disciples were previously successful in casting out demons; since their authority was established by Jesus Christ – it may be their faith in him was seriously shaken when Jesus revealed to them the way of the cross for him and his disciples in Mark 8 . Mike said “in believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.” Where does it say that in the Bible? There’s probably no simpler or more clear description of faith than in Hebrews 11 . The chapter focuses on attitude – “faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” – so how can that be referring to a written promise? Faith is a spiritual perception – it’s a sense of something intangible – like verse 3 “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”. Like in verse 27 with reference to Moses, “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible”. Despite all obstacles, all the believers mentioned in God’s Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11) courageously obeyed God. Read the whole chapter – not all of them came out on top in every situation: There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. To summarize Hebrews 11: God was pleased with their faith – though NONE of them received what was promised! What some of them got was merely a foretaste of the greater promise now accomplished in Christ. ** ** ** ** 5.Has an inappropriate fixation with demonology And the demonology is skewed to boot! In my opinion, the prolific presence and busy activity of Satan and his army in Mike’s theology has no solid biblical basis – but rather it seems to be fueled by paranoia - which I believe was heavily influenced by the delusional and irrational teachings of wierwille – especially in the Advanced Class. In my opinion wierwille’s demonology is lopsided spiritualism with awful lot of speculation – a lot of unproven theories. Contrary to wierwille’s teachings I drafted a couple of posts on the idiom of permission thread, with information I garnered from legitimate scholars in the biblical languages and ancient cultures. You can check out these posts at your convenience here > my idiom of permission post Oct 2nd 2022 7:04 PM and here > my idiom of permission post Oct 4th 2022 12:30 PM - for now I’ll just summarize them: Many of the ancient cultures of the Bible had a concept of a divine council which basically was an assembly of deities over which a higher-level god presides. Thus, you’ll find in passages like II Samuel 24 a narrative of God in dialog with an angel to withdraw the angel’s hand of destruction and in Job 1 and Job 2 God as a manager over lesser deities. ~ ~ ~ ~ What’s the point of all this? God is sovereign! Ephesians 1:11 says God works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will…I fail to see the necessity of Mike’s ever-developing secrets of the dark side – because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, it lacks biblical support, it gives more attention to Satan than to God, besides the fact that it promotes a feeble and pitiful view of God Almighty. that's all for now folks

I believe the Bible is God-breathed – I follow the limited inspiration theory. And because it is God-breathed I view it trustworthy as to metaphysical truths – to fine tune my reply here in order to say why PFAL is NOT God-breathed, I would have to argue with the disciplines of biblical theology and systematic theology - without getting too technical here, biblical theology is limited to a collation and restatement of biblical data, without the logical analysis and dialectical correlation between texts that systematic theology emphasizes. PFAL runs roughshod over both those disciplines. There is some overlap – but I’ll mention a couple of key differences. Concerning his erroneous biblical theology – one example is wierwille collecting various passages across 4 gospels to reinterpret the crucifixion scene as there being 4 crucified with Jesus Christ. Regarding his flawed systematic theology, wierwille used logical fallacies and Scripture twisting to postulate a law of believing. For example – something I mentioned in an earlier post – wierwille cites Matthew 21:21 as a proof-text; Even Companion Bible and more recently NIV Cultural Background Study Bible state Jesus' words "if you say to this mountain & etc." that it was a common proverb to say of a great teacher, who removed difficulties, that he was “a rooter up of mountains”. Some suggest that “moving mountains” was a Jewish figure of speech for doing what was considered impossible. In a shameless plug for a thread I started in About the Way forum, my intention was to get Grease Spotters involved in discussion the erroneous biblical theology and systematic theology in PFAL > Why PFAL sucks ~ ~ ~ ~ How is my leap of faith different than Mike’s? It's not. In terms of the act itself – there is no difference in our leaps of faith. The only difference is the object of our faith – if that is even a valid point in this discussion. A leap of faith is an act of believing in or attempting something whose existence or outcome cannot be proved. Both biblical theology and systematic theology rely on the collecting and restating of biblical data and logical analysis. It’s not a hard science where facts and theories can be firmly and exactly measured, tested, or proved. If we can’t accurately measure, test, prove and compare the biblical theology and systematic theology of the Bible and PFAL, the discussion is pointless in my opinion. The Bible and PFAL both require a leap of faith. But I get it – this is in the Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith forum – I forgot…I missed that…Here’s another mystery in my life. I’ve made at least two big leaps of faith. In 1974 I leapt on board wierwille’s interpretation of the Bible. When I left in 1986, I jumped ship – reexploring the Christian faith for myself. Since faith and reason are both sources of authority upon which beliefs can rest, I am always in the exploring mode.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter…Isaiah 5:20 The Son: Hey, Pop why did wierwille so hate the Trinity? The Father: Well, Son – I was going to tell you this some time – wierwille was so busy schtooping the flock – I mean that both literally and metaphorically (see, I do interpret myself) he needed a scapegoat to blame for how messed up Christianity is and real believers would need him to save it. The Son: But I’m the Lamb of God! The Father: wierwille taught you were chopped liver – the main reason people took PFAL was to hear how they could get whatever they want in life. The Son: How sad…and his fans still defend that rotting wolf with pretentious hate speech. The Father: What do you expect? The devil is the father of lies. wierwille fathered a following built on lies. 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, a putting them in chains of darkness b to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh c and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from d the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. 13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. 17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” g and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2 NIV 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. 6“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. 10“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] a 12“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish. 15“If your brother or sister b sins, c go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ d 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be e bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be f loosed in heaven. 19“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18 NIV Just watch the pendant…yes…no…yes…no…maybe so...Now when I count to three, you will lick your lips and act real natural…and say “wierwille is the great power of god”

No problem at all – I said that for the benefit of those who like to use diversionary tactics (like referencing a court of law) as a distraction to avoid discussing the hypocrisy of wierwille and LCM. We cool

Take away technology and it will take you a lot longer to accomplish some things. Technically a corporation – an entity registered under a state’s operating laws. It has a corporate body of officers – people with official titles of responsibility. I assume they occasionally meet face-to-face. Followers of TWI are organized around a hierarchy power structure – those at the top of the pyramid – the big dawgz - oversee those below mostly by trickle-down-directives – - maybe some face-to-face – - probably more by phone, emails and seances “speak oh great and wise wierwille”. Finally, we get down to the peon / Twig level, that’s probably mostly face-to-face and where money is collected in abundant sharing and class fees and sent to headquarters for the big dawgz to divey up. Technically Grease Spot Café is a human/technology combination. How do I know these other people that I’m interacting with on the internet are really who they say they are? How does anyone on Grease Spot know what I’m really like? To be honest - I’m not that well-spoken – I use the internet / word processor / thesaurus to find a suitable synonym or clear definition. But I know this much – when I draft a reply and post it on Grease Spot – it is exactly how little old human me on a dinky laptop at home drafted it. Nothing has changed. Moral of the story – trust no one and just believe in yourself. Technology is a double-edged sword. Some folks are attracted to the dark side of the force.

I felt it was necessary to give the dictionary definition of slander because CERTAIN PEOPLE like to redefine words and misconstrue valid criticism of wierwille…that’s it – plain and simple. Both libel and slander are forms of defamation, but libel is found in print, and slander is found in speech. Libel refers to a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression, whereas slander refers to a false spoken statement that is made to cause people to have a bad opinion of someone. It should be noted that many people, especially when they are not writing a legal brief, or arguing in a court of law, do not distinguish between these two words, placing them both in the general semantic category of "saying or writing something untrue about someone, in order to make them look bad." However, there is a very clear difference between them. From: What's the difference between 'slander' and 'libel'? | Merriam-Webster This is Grease Spot Café and not a court of law. So don't worry wierwille-fans your idol is safe for now IF THE SHOE FITS - SHOVE IT UP YOUR -SHAVING CREAM - STAY NICE AND CLEAN

For review: Slander is the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation. a false and defamatory oral statement about a person…Note there is nothing in the definition about a court of law. A court of law may use that definition in a court case. Maybe you forget the court case of LCM vs the Allens…you can look it up – on main GSC page I think. Every scenario I mentioned in my post are true and represent what actually happened – from eyewitness / victim’s testimony…I was at that pajama party in Rome City – Family corps and teens present – so roughly a few hundred witnesses – and I saw wierwille invite up front my friend’s 16-year-old daughter. God forbid wierwille's hypocrisy is exposed guess you're cool with wierwille exalting himself in closed meetings I guess a little of wierwille's leaven couldn't hurt

I’m curious – where else do you look? Not seeing an overall positive effect? Are you exaggerating? Or are you talking just about yourself? Like Soylent Green, Grease Spot Café is made of people – so it’s NOT one voice – but many voices – INDIVIDUALS expressing feelings, observations, anecdotes, therapies, etc., - speaking just for myself - it’s done me a lot of good. For a couple of reasons I disagree with your similar evaluation of TWI and Grease Spot Café. For one thing when a cult-survivor conveys they have the same unreasonably suspicious or mistrustful attitude toward Grease Spot as they do toward TWI, I tend to think they might need to regain confidence in their own cognitive skills. And the other thing is the difference in agenda - - TWI and Grease Spot are a million miles apart. TWI’s publicly stated agenda on their website looks benign – but underneath the façade are the programs and groupthink dynamics to indoctrinate followers. Grease Spot’s purpose is to provide a platform for individuals to tell the other side of that cult – there is no censorship – so there’s a mixed bag of input from each Grease Spotter. There might be a gazillion little agendas if you add up why people read and post here. One of the things I like to do is offer little tidbits of ideas and resources to pique the interest and curiosity of TWI-followers – maybe something will draw them out of that rigid and enslaving mindset...as I said before, that desire to escape must come from within the person. I read a fascinating book Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other Peoples Minds by Howard Gardner . What intrigued me was the author explaining the inner workings of how folks change their minds – this goes much deeper than analyzing external factors like brainwashing, sales gimmicks or browbeating. Gardner talks about these ‘levers’ in our minds - like different research and analysis departments – that an idea must go through and get vetted. When I say vetted - does it pass the smell test? The young and naive do not have well-developed cognitive skills, so they're more likely to fall for scams. The book even has a chapter that gets into the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus…I read this book AFTER I left TWI, but it helped me understand how TWI was so successful at indoctrinating me. It was by the finesse and sometimes brute force of their manipulative tactics – that they could either sweet talk their way or bully their way through the various mental research and analysis departments. TWI is indiscriminate like a bomb – it doesn’t care about the lives it destroys. The people of Grease Spot have helped – and continue to help others survive that 'bomb'.

Great posts, Charity! As far as your mentioning to ponder the scarcity of miracles – I just wanted to say a few words to clarify what I’ve already said. I think my leaning toward cessationism regarding the utterance manifestations is probably due to the regimented mentality I’ve seen in TWI. In my 12 years’ experience THAT is all I saw…Looking back it seems so artificial…man-made. And that’s my sentiment on this thread. Complaining of the shortage of miracles is another symptom of the TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God. “you operate the manifestations…signs, miracles and wonders follow believers, class…what power we had if we only knew it.” Maybe it’s just me – so take everything I say with a grain of salt – for 12 years in TWI there I developed an internal self-defeating dynamic. By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed. So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down. I mentioned seeing the Jesus Revolution movie earlier. What resonated the most with me was the experience of the inner transformation. That is real. That’s what was lacking for me in TWI - it was mostly superficial for me. I think I’ve gotten a lot more out of the Bible and experienced a lot more internal revolutions…evolutions…whatever since I got out of that harmful and controlling cult…In TWI I was looking for and expecting what TWI dictated.

The problem might be you are looking at Scripture, and expecting that is the model for the modern church. Maybe you’re aware of the cessationism versus continuationism the theological dispute . personally I lean toward cessationism – not only for the passages that indicate certain spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age – the verses terming them as signs of an apostle – i.e. since they authenticated their special office. I believe history will also bear me out on the obvious scarcity. I will acknowledge the Holy Spirit is the one who distributes spiritual gifts as I Cor. 12 shows – so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do. The utterance manifestations can easily be faked - as wierwille admitted in The Way: Living in Love. And if we’re going on anecdotal evidence – I will attest to the lack of the power and revelation manifestations wherever I served in TWI. You have zilch credibility in my book, so I dismiss any of your claims. And please note I specified the power and revelation manifestations that wierwille claimed followers can ‘operate’. God doesn’t need wierwille’s hyped up Advanced Class of nonsense to accomplish miracles – and He certainly isn’t limited by someone’s lack of knowledge or ‘weak’ believing. Your recurring thought on the lack of miraculous in your posts also supports the idea of cessationism. We just saw the movie Jesus Revolution (2023) the true story of a national spiritual awakening in the early 1970's and its origins within a community of teenage hippies in Southern California. Even though there were some ‘cheesy Hallmark moments’ two things stuck out to me in light of your thread: the film emphasized the inner transformation and didn’t get into theatrics – internal phenomena if you will – of people connecting with Jesus Christ. In my opinion comparing the Jesus Movement with wierwille’s ministry – they are a million miles apart. The Jesus Movement was a genuine work of God. wierwille’s ministry was as phony as a three-dollar bill – he even hijacked part of the Jesus Movement…there’s been a few threads about that: Jim Doop the Way West and VPW brief timeline of wierwille’s career about Doop and Heefner Jimmy Doop's post Sept. 8 2005 about The Way West and wierwille wanting to control the money That’s all for now, folks

This sounds like wierwille’s fixation of demonology - all speculation by him and YOU odd…you’ve conjured up a cosmic economy…God and the devil are inextricably linked together…weird and unbiblical to say the least and It still sounds to me like you’re placing limits on God…Jim Croce plagiarized “if I could put god in a bottle…” ah yes the spurt-ual realm! Maybe re-prioritize your time. Finish Penworks’ book first, then take that much deserved vacation from Grease Spot to mull over the implications of what is revealed in Undertow to reevaluate your thesis.

I think I understand one of your points – to a degree anyway – what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes. But to say that He “MUST work within His own constructed framework” is to dictate what an all-powerful being can and cannot do. Imagine a 6-year-old throwing a tantrum at Walmart because Mom won’t let him grab stuff off the shelves and mess with everything – like he does at home. Maybe the kid doesn’t understand something about the ‘all-powerful’ Mom. She’s a single Mom and works online from home. When at home she devotes a lot of her time and energy to online work. Most folks at Walmart will probably think she doesn’t discipline the kid at home…But maybe she’s a great single mom doing the best she can to provide for 2, loves the kid and just makes sure the kid doesn’t burn down the house. At Walmart – maybe the kid is trying to figure out what the ‘all-powerful’ Mom can and cannot do. In this silly parenting metaphor, to the kid the mom is like a god. At 6-years-old maybe he doesn’t get that an all-powerful Mom can have different strategies and purposes in different situations – but her love and concern for the kid’s well-being and development doesn’t change – no external force…not even a tantrum throwing 6-year-old can alter mom’s love. Why did God create angels with free will? Why did God create humankind with free will? Why didn’t God immediately fix the rebellion in heaven or the screw up in the Garden of Eden? There’s lots of questions this little kid has. 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters…Romans 8 NIV 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love…1 Corinthians 13 NIV