GrouchoMarxJr

...Sounds like you have an "opprotunity".

No..**** you, I have a problem!

"God will always bless you for following the directives of your leaders, even if they're wrong"

The most disasterous situations in my life were brought about by following the advice of twi leaders. They obviously came up with this cliche to counter all the bad decisions that were being made and to keep people obedient, in spite of the leaders total incompetance.

Yeah, it disturbed me too...he was a good friend.

That whole process of "ministering healing", as taught by Wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill. First thought? Gimme a break. When George Aar is talking to me, I don't have to stop and try to decide whether or not it was "my own thoughts" or George speaking...he tried to formulate it and make it mechanical...half the stuff, he just made up.

Veepee was a total piker when it came to "healing"...now, has anybody caught a whiff of Benny Hinn? This guy puts on a REAL dog and pony show...has folks standing in line and he just walks down the line and heals em all! waves his hand and they drop!...the gullible eat this up like a hot fudge sundae in July. He has his brother "screening" em first as he brings them up...it's hysterical...but Benny's laughing all the way to the bank. The money he makes is far greater than anything Veepee ever generated...just goes to show ya, if you want to bring in the REAL crowds, you have to have a good "light show".

When I took the class in July of 1975 it cost $85. It went up to $100 in September of 1975. It went up to $200 in Sept of 1976...The price was dropped down to $100 again but I'm not sure when...maybe 1978.

In 1975 I walked a blind guy up to Wierwille at a meeting (Buffalo, NY)...Veepee looked at my friend and asked him what he wanted, my friend told Veepee that he came tonight to receive his healing and be able to see again...Grifter Vic told him to take the pfal class and he would receive his healing during the class...To make a long story short, my blind friend couhed up the $100, took the class, never received his sight and died shortly after...Maybe the mog was having an "off night" when we saw him.

...Yeah, we need an "innie" to give us an update...

My guess is that visiting twi hdqrts today would sorta be like visiting the astrodome in Houston...the baseball and football teams don't use it anymore...oh, they have a rodeo there and a few other events, but most of the time it just sits there empty. If you walk around the inside of it, it cries out with the ghosts of yesterday...

...A cult without a cult leader?

If Rosie is not the LOG (lesbian of God), then aren't they a ship without a rudder? Maybe she should come up with a "godstory"...you know, snow on the carpet or something?

Thet never should have sold the Babe... ;)-->

To all the Wierwille apologists...make no mistake about it, Wierwille made a LOT OF MONEY selling "God's word". Is it wrong to make a lot of money?...of course not...but is it wrong to make a lot of money selling "God's word"?...

Back in the prosperous 70's and 80's, twi touted it's financial success like a scouts badge of honor...Emporia, Romecity, Gunnison, the developement of hdqrts, Tinney, N.M....private jets, a Scottish castle! Are you kiddin' me? Veepee was on a roll. Say what you want about the old grifter but in the final analysis, he was a topflight salesman...he was the Ron Pompeil of religion. If I were a con man working the circuit, Veepee Wierwille would be my idol...But the question remains...Where does it say that you can sell "God's word" and make millions? Jesus never bought any properties...neither did Paul.

Oh, I get it...Veepee was more like a levitical priest that collected tithes!...yeah that's the ticket. I mean, should a son do less than a servant?...I still remember that beautiful Harley Davidson we gave him...what a scam!

Oldies claims that he's just trying to make sense of it all...ok, here's a parable that might help to enlighten him:

A man was crawling through the desert, dying of thirst, when he spotted someone sitting under an umbrella, sipping iced tea. The thirsty man crawled up to the other and asked him is he could have some of his iced tea...the man replied, "no, but you can have some water out of the well over there if you give me a dollar"...The man pulled a dollar out of pocket and crawled over to the well and drank.

A short time later a beautiful maiden came stumbling along, also dying of thirst. She asked him for something to drink and the reply was the same, "you can drink from the well if you give me a dollar". The maiden handed him the dollar and turned for the well...only the man wouldn't let her proceed. He knocked her to the ground and forcibly raped her. When he was finished, he kicked her in the head several times until she was unconsciencious.

Sometime later, the first man to drink from the well, overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man was, who raped and beat the woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...Suddenly the man spoke out in defense of the rapist...People were dumbfounded! How can you defend this brutal abuser? The man replied and said..."The water he sold me was good".

End of parable.

Congrats to all those who made the "honor roll"...My motto continues to be:

Even the smallest dog can lift his leg and pee on the tallest building.

Isn't it ironic...At one time anybody could walk onto the grounds and they were always made to feel welcome. When Martindale was booted, Rozilla had the perfect opprotunity to go back to an open door policy and begin to act like Christians again...but no, she chose to follow after the hardheartedness that was "prevailing". Makes me wonder how much of Martindales policies that she was responsible for to begin with...Who would of ever imagined that a hate filled dyke would end up running the whole thing... -->

oldies...I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about when you say "throw the baby out with the bath water"...I think that both you and John Lynn are guilty of over rating what twi actually offered by way of it's teachings.

To me, the "word" represents such values as love, faith, trust, compassion, forgiveness, honesty, gentleness, caring, giving, integrity, kindness, goodness...shall I go on? Much of the new testament deals with "behavior". There's not much emphasis placed on splitting doctrinal hairs and arguing about the "4 crucified" or whatever...The message of the new testament is to have faith and endeavor to incorporate godly behavioral traits.

I don't know about you, but I was taught all these traits LONG before I ever heard of twi. I am thankful to my mother and father and all those who provided examples of godly behavior for me growing up. In church,I learned the basic "Christian doctrine" of salvation LONG before I had ever heard of twi...So, to equate rejecting "twi doctrine" and rejecting "the word" as being the same in invalid. Just what did they teach that made them singularly significant? What part of your "baby" cannot be found or was not found by most of us without any help from twi? If there was part of their doctrine that WAS true...well, that's swell but I think you're over rating them.

The "word" is something that is intangible and either lives within a person's experiences or it doesn't. You can't lable it with earthly credentials and then assign the credit to some corporate entity. So Veepee taught you some cool stuff...big deal, who cares. It has nothing to do with Veepee or any other person...it has everything to do with your own personal faith or lack thereof. To assume that the rejection of twi as a whole means rejecting "the word" that they purportedly taught, is both arrogant and wrong.

I cannot comprehend what it must have been like to lose the feeling from the neck down and to become a prisoner to your own body...Nevertheless, he bravely fought against the odds, his courageous battle was an inspiration to all, and even is his dibilitated state, he contributed greatly to the understanding of serious spinal injuries...

...Fly away Superman, you're free now.

I hear ya George...I plan on seeing this movie as soon as I finish my Momentus training, that is, if my twig coordinator will allow it...but then again, I don't want to miss my weekly psychoanalysis appointment or my practice sessions at "spoon bending"...decisions, decisions...

I left in 87 and was the first one in my branch to walk...I was a twig coordinator at the time and within a couple of weeks, my entire twig walked also. I stood up at the weekly twig coordinator's meeting and told everybody I was quitting and why...the next day I was marked and avoided. That didn't bother me too much because it was like the boss telling you that you're fired AFTER you already quit. ...

I remember at the time, being aware of the fact that I was the first one out of about 60 people (branch) that was walking away...and I felt pretty good about myself because of it. Within a couple of years, the entire state had just about walked away...That was always the thing with me...I always refused, in my mind, to committ unconditionally to twi...even when I was in the corps, I always reserved for myself the right to leave twi anytime I felt it to be appropriate...When I left, I never felt as though I were leaving God...I felt that twi had left God.

Being a Bills fan is not easy this year...0-4 !

A truly funny man. Had a great heart and a great life...he made millions laugh. May he rest in peace.

What do you suppose Veepee would say if you told him that his children and grandchildren are not welcome at TWI hdqrts?

So the Wierwille farm now belongs to Rosie and Donna?...The way, living in love...Where's Elaina's sequel?

A Special poem on the anniversary:

THE WAY

All these years you took a stand, to teach us God's true word.

We trusted you to hold it high, until all the people heard.

But then the rumors, then the facts, we couldn't let it pass.

To think our trusted shepard screwed his own sheep in the a$$.

I'll bet that in that line of work, it can be a REAL exciting adventure. ;)-->

I think that a key in understanding twi-1 was that it grew suddenly and it grew quickly. There was a large influx of young people that all came in at once during the early and mid 70's. A large number of these young people were hippie types. The lifestyle of these youngsters bordered, at times, on hedonism. That's why the early ROA's were somewhat unstructured and were more reminiscient of a rock concert than anything Christian.

Wierwille's followers were not ready, at that time, to become the disciplined corps that Veepee so wanted...it took time to instill discipline and structure. These same hippies all got haircuts, began washing windows and became the 6th-10th corps. By the time Wierwille had processed a few thousand of us through the corp, twi was ready for more structure and discipline out on the "field".

There was an evolution in the development of the whole thing. I believe that Veepee always wanted the military type discipline but was smart enough to know how far he could push people. Martindale on the other hand, was clueless when it came to knowing how hard and how far he could push people. I don't think there was much difference between twi-1 and 2 when it came to intent. In both cases, the structure and the workings of the cult were the same...centralized control. What Veepee started, LCM simply continued.

What made the biggest difference between 1 and 2 was the doctrinal changes. Where Wierwille emphasized "grace", Martindale emphasized "legalism". This eventually changed the general attitudes of the followers from warm and accepting...to cold and suspicious. It went from a friendly Christian, extending the right hand of fellowship, to a hardassed corps guy extending his middle finger.

So, I agree with Oak, in that "Martindale was more open about his position". Martindale could give his pitch, but he could never close the sale...that's why everybody told him to stick his loyalty oath in his arse. Veepee knew how to play the crowd perfectly. That was the big difference...style. Content was about the same.

But because of this "evolution", there was a difference between 1 an 2, in a practical sense. The early unstructured years were much more enjoyable than the later years of heavy legalism.

...I doubt it. I agree with Mosh.

Yeah...when you think about it...say there were 7 people in a class, at $200 a pop...$1400 profit for twi and the cheap bastards couldn't even pony up the equipment for this huge money maker! They got us to work for free...and to supply all the equipment for free!...while they hauled in some major bucks. No wonder they could afford to buy all those properties.

The differences between John Kerry and George Bush are distinctive enough to make a clear decision. Kerry represents "business as usual"...a liberal senator form Mass. who plays ball with rich and powerful lobbyists like most politicians do. On the other hand, Bush represents a radical right wing agenda, which includes, aggressive "empire building" and repression of freedoms here in America.

Thankfully Kerry won the debate and has almost caught up to the oil pimp in the polls.