GrouchoMarxJr

Well, there was that one weekend when we all put on black robes...but that was because we were dunking witches that day.

Waysurvivor...You probably should check yourself into a mental institution...either that or find one of those sex web sites that will let you post your creative but lurid stories.

Yeah Mike...I read your post, quoting Veepee. I read NOTHING that would indicate that wierwille knew the first thing about a relationship with Jesus Christ...I guess we just have different ideas about what a relationship with someone else consists of...

Oakspear...Of course your logic is sound but as far as I can tell, Mike (mogjr) doesn't respond to logic or common sense. In fact, he even ignore his own bible when it comes to selecting the Christian leader that he is to follow.

The criteria for Christian leadership is clear and wierwille fails to qualify. In fact, in terms of his behavior,wierwille failed to qualify as even an "average Christian", according to the bible's standards. He was a lying, plagurizing, drunken womanizer. His arrogance was the opposite of being humble and meek. The evil perpetrated by lcm was wierwille's doing and his legacy. The condition that twi is in today can be traced back to wierwille's wrong doctrines and his wrong behavior. Mike is living in a pretend world where he feels safe and secure...really too bad.

Mike...I'm not sure that any skill is required in dealing with you. I see no purpose in a debate because you start off with the assumption that pfal was "revelation from God". I do not share this same assumption and therefore am at a loss in understanding any purpose for a debate between us to occur...your mind is made up. You begin with the belief that wierwille was right, and then "work from there"...I mean, you're entitled to believe wierwille if you so choose, this is America. Since I became more objective, the errors in pfal are as glaring as they are plentiful. Your mind, however is not objective. You insist that wierwille was "connected" to the Almighty when he wrote his pfal books. I'm not sure if you are even able to see the errors, even when pointed out to you.

If they would listen:

"I want my money back!"

Mike...you said..."Since it is revelation from God..." I think I see the problem here. You just made a huge jump in logic, with nothing to back that up. It's impossible to prove or disprove whether or not wierwille put together pfal by revelation! You simply have decided to believe this. I'm afraid that I do not share this belief with you. If I were to list every person who claims that God has spoken to them...I'm afraid that my keyboard would wear out first.

Mike...I hate to tell you this, but Veepee lied to us about the "God talking to him thingy"...the snow on the gas pumps, the story about the racetrack...all of it. He just made it up. If God talked to wierwille, how come he picked lcm to replace himself? :D--> I understand now, why you are so adament about defending pfal...to you, it's the same as the bible. "The book of wierwille"...why don't we just take the pfal books and staple them in the bible right after the Pauline epistles...let's give Veepee his due. Does that sound about right Mike? Of course, you've elevated the class even higher than wierwille himself did...and that IS amazing.

I can't help but feel that someday in the future, you will be trying to forget how you were conned for so many years. The longer that you cling to this broken cistern, the more broken and bitter you will eventually become. To climb that high into the clouds of man worship, only assures that your plummet downward will end in a crushing realization of despair. I trust that when that time comes for you...and it will...that we here at the GS will be here to help you begin your recovery.

Mike says "The only reason I actually do have a better command of the material is because..."

So you admit it? Scheesh, what a humble guy! I guess that does make you kinda special...I mean, the guy with the "better command" should be addressed as...hmmm, let's see...how about Mogjr? The fact that you have NO IDEA of how much of the material I have "command" of, let alone, dozens of other posters here, doesn't seem to stand in the way of your determining your superiority in this regard...yes, I can see that you are indeed a true disciple of your "father in the word". Mike, you don't just come across as arrogant...you ARE arrogant.

Be that as it may, I have read more of your posts than you think...enough to realize that you may be mentally ill. At best you're a source of amusement and at worst, you're a prime example of why wierwille's doctrines were wrong.

I did a little editing of my own...see above post

Mike...I can't imagine anything that you could possibly say to "benefit" me. Twi NEVER taught about having a relationship with Christ...he was the "absent one".

Mike...certainly you don't think that you are the only one here with an accurate knowledge of what wierwille actually taught and wrote, do you? I have most everything wierwille wrote...in book form. You seem to have this delusion that you have a monopoly on understanding this material better than the rest of us...Cannot you understand that someone can understand wierwille's doctrine as well as you or even better and STILL reject it as being wrong? How arrogant and pompous of you to assume that anyone who rejects the works of wierwille, simply doesn't understand it as well as Mike does!

Invisible Dan...You made some really excellant points. When you think about it, the 1st century Christians didn't have the written gospels or church epistles to "rightly divide". Gosh, no classes or seminars? No concordances? Plenty of signs miracles and wonders though...

The moral teachings of Jesus were not only ignored...but actually belittled! I can still hear wierwille saying how we cannot pray the way Jesus told us to pray...explaining how that prayer was wrong for us because it was in the "old testament"...I can still hear his sarcastic tone as he read Jesus's prayer from the gospels...

Sadie...thanks for responding to my question. It was a sincere question. My experience is similar to yours...I was always taught Jesus the son and didn't even know what the trinity was until I got into twi...I am not a trinitarian. I was just curious how others dealt with that particular doctrine when "sorting" through Veepee old teachings in their minds. :)-->

Mike...I still have all my original pfal books and many other books that wierwille "authored". I am aware of the fact that twi did not function in a way that was compatible with wierwilles written books...that's true, I will concede that point to you. I believe the "waytree" doctrine was introduced into the mainstream of the "ministry" sometime in the early 70's by J.T. and his unbelievably boring seminar..."The way tree"...Of course this was masterminded by wierwille...nothing like this could have happened without his close scrutiny. I believe that when wierwille came up with his waytree scheme, he compromised greatly on what he had written in his earlier books...just like he compromised on his earlier teachings against tithing...when he saw the growth begin...he changed his teaching to "Christians should be prosperous"...a scurrilous little pamphlet that laid the foundation for twi's financial empire. (it was always the FIRST assignment in pfal...get it?).

Wierwille actually stole some halfway decent material from some fairly decent Christian writers and thinkers. The problem was wierwille lack of charecter...He would twist the scriptures to suit his own ends. I mean, I actually think that the works of E.W. Bullinger are valid...I just don't like the "spin" that Veepee put on a lot of the things that he stole from him as well as others. Wierwille's obvious lack of originality was apparent when comparing his works against those he stole them from...much is reproduced verbatim. He even stole the names "Maggie Muggins and Henry Baloko"... Whenever wierwille would venture into the realm of "something on his own", he invariably looked a buffoon. His over simplified approach was both naive and sophmoric. When critiquing his "works" from a scholarly perspective, he falls far short of having even a modicum of any depth in his writings.

I maintain that if wierwille's doctrine is of interest to anyone, they would fare much better by going to the several serious writers that wierwille copied from. Why? Because wierwille's "packaging" of these other men's work was seriously flawed in a number of ways. First of all was wierwille's tendency to oversimplify...his inability to comprehend much of the material that he was stealing becomes painfully apparent when making comparisons of wierwille versus those he stole from. His understanding of certain aspects is often flawed or skewed.

Wierwille included many WRONG doctrines when he put his "class" together and wrote his original pfal books. Believing does not equal receiving...etc., etc. Wierwille's selfish way of thinking led him into a spiritual cul de sac. He was void of proper judgement in determining biblical interpretations and he lost his credibility as a Christian leader. Charecter flaws and spiritual perception are not independant of each other. The man cannot and should not be trusted...and that means his "works" should not be trusted either.

Wierwille should never be compared to any of the 1st century apostles, or to any of the serious Christian theologians, or to even a legitimate Christian minister. He was none of those things...he was a grifter. He was defrocked from his own church for having sex with one of his flock and he never stopped this behavior.

Mike...do you honestly think that God would give this great "revelation" to a man of such low charecter? You cannot ignore the grievious sins of the man and simply point to his books...life doesn't work that way. The man and his books are interconnected...the writings in his books are an extension of his mind...a mind that is contaminated by dishonesty, greed and lust...and therefore CANNOT be trusted.

If there is any value in wierwille's writings, it's because of those he stole from. The easiest way I know to seperate the truth from the error in wierwille's teachings, is to simply take wierwille out of the equation. Go back to those he stole from and examine their works...whatever is missing of twi's doctrine in THEIR writings was probably the error that wierwille added.

I know you worship veepee and piffle, but in my opinion, wierwilles's written works are a cheap, inferior, knock off of something that was done by someone else...much better. So Mike, if you want to keep watching for snow on the gas pumps, that's you're priviledge.

Oldies...none of that is fruit.

All you did was post a laundry list of wierwille's doctrine and then claim that just knowing this doctrine is the fruit...

You don't need a big nose to smell bad baloney.

For the most part, witnessing was something that most people loathed but were willing to pretend that they liked because of the associated guilt. Many corps took it seriously and were good at recruiting...others simply made sure that the rest of us were witnessing, while they attended to something else "more pressing" at the time. I thought that the folks who genuinely liked to go witnessing were "weirdos" and I usually tried to avoid them. Some of the most dread filled experiences of my life include going out "witnessing"...especially door to door. It took every fiber of my being to not feel like a Jehova witness...it was painful.

When I was a wow...it was a year filled with guilt. We never spent 8 frickin hours a day witnessing! I would slip into a neighborhood bar with my wow brother and we would spend 4 hours drinking draft beer and shooting pool...on the way home we would eat a box of breath mints and try not to slur too much when we got home for twig. ;)-->

I find it most curious that so many folks here still adhere to wierwille's most controversial and heretical doctrine. It seems that if so few Christian writers back up wierwille's claim, and so many extwiers still adhere to this doctrine...hmmm, can anybody say "waybrain"?

I think that "wierwille's most significant contribution"...as it was described by many twi leaders..."Jesus Christ is not God" was a joke to say the least. The book was an embarrassment...sophmoric at best. It was an indication, that when wierwille was not plagerizing other people's work...his own work resembled something written by a high school freshmen. Why would any intelligent Christian toss out centuries of theology, written by some fabulous minds...and replace it with the anomaly doctrine of a slow witted cornfield preacher? I mean, c'mon, the whole book was about 100 pages of double spaced, one syllable words...I could have written it better myself.

I'm not saying that I personally agree with the doctrine of the trinity...but I am curious as to how and why so many of you still cleave to what wierwille taught on this subject. Besides giving credibility to wierwille, what other reasons do you non-trinitarians base your belief?

Mark S...I'm flattered that you re-posted my humble thoughts on this subject. ;)-->

Mike...No, I am not religious. I am a Christian...and it seems as though you have given me a choice of 2 things...either admitting that I lied (which I did not) or getting into a theological debate over wierwille's teachings. Let me ask you a question? Why should I allow you to define the parameters of my responses to you?

Mike...you erroneously attempt to seperate the actions of twi from the doctrine of wierwille. I'm not sure that is a good idea, if you are really looking for truth. Why? Because the bible says that you will know them by their fruits. What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...I'm not talking about the emotional "good times" that people had when wierwille was still running things...I'm talking about the long term effects that adhering to wierwille teachings have produced in people. The fruit that wierwille produced was rotten fruit that led to his own ego rather than to Christ.

The absent Christ...Because twi declared him to be absent, he was not allowed to participate in the functioning of twi. In fact he was replaced by the "written word" which really means he was replaced by wierwille (wierwille, afterall was the ultimate authority in twi for what the written word said), therefore, Veepee became the head of the body. Wierwille taught that speaking to Christ was sinful and that it was a trick of the devil when Christians tried to speak to their lord. That is why wierwille used the old testament dynamic in defining himself...MOG! He saw himself more like Moses than any Christian leader in the new testament...Of course that's why LCM considered himself to be like Joshua. It's true that wierwille taught that we can each have a one on one relationship with God...but in practice, he would not allow it. The "waytree" was designed for each person to go through a chain of command...this was a direct counterfeit to the true body of Christ, in which each goes directly to Lord for direction...instead of the twig coordinator. In other words, wierwille version of the bible was ..."Christianity without Christ"...sorry Mikey, he led people away from Christ...I stand by what I said.

Perhaps the best way to deal with an abusive boss, is to simply confront them. Boldly look them in the eye and let them know that you are not being paid to listen to anyone's meanspirited or nasty tone. Tell them that you are happy to follow directions and to do your job properly but that you are not willing to take verbal abuse from anyone...Speak with boldness and authority and make sure you look them in the eyes when you say it. There's a chance that you will soon be looking for another job, but it's equally possible that you will gain the respect of the boss, and he will treat you differently. If he doesn't, treat you better...maybe it's time to find a new job anyway. Life is too short to put up with needless crap.

Let's see now...There seems to be certain folks who INSIST on kissing the hem of wierwilles garment. Look...the guy was a lying scumbag. If you feel it's worth even 1 minute of your time to "consider" his theology...to study the "great man's" teachings...go for it. I can't imagine spending any of my precious time on this earth trying to seperate the truth from the error that some cornfield preacher pasted together from other Christian writers. You like pfal? Read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"...it's where wierwille stole his material from for the first 8 sessions of his "class".

Why give this plagerizing bastard any credit for anything? Mike...he lied to us in God's name. He hurt countless people with his obsession for booze and illicit sex. His false doctrines have put thousands into mental bondage...and he turned people AWAY from a relationship with Christ, substituting himself for the absent savior. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such evil...did you say you were a Christian?

Mike says: "All the biblical writers were sinners..." I understand that all the biblical writers were sinners, but Wierwille should not be counted amoung them because one of his sins was that he pretended to be a biblical writer.

I believe that the bible is quite clear concerning the behavior of Christian leaders. Are not Christians advised in the bible to be wise in whom they choose to follow? ...of good report and all that...Wierwille trashed his ministry and therefore his credibility, when he decided to violate the "principles of God" in order to satiate his own belly. If he was right about anything he taught, it was because Bullinger or some of the others that Veepee stole from, were right.

Wierwille was a perfect example of a carnal Christian...he confused godliness with gain...his own gain, that is. It's doubtful that Wierwille EVER received any "revelation", and the only spirits he truly understood, came from a bottle. The guy was a grifter and a sleaze. He was a dirty old man who bedded down young girls and then called them his "kids".

...But yet, the wierwille apologists continue to worship their "father in the word"...kinda pathetic, don't ya think?

After he was totally disgraced, defrocked, and thrown out...I believe he got a job somewhere in Ohio, as a delivery boy.

You make some good points Roy...Definitely following Wierwille instead of Jesus Christ was a "fundamental error" that should have tipped us off from the gitgo.

As far as I know, nobody here has put their hand on a bible and sworn to tell the truth, in order to register at GS...In fact how can anybody even PROVE that my nextdoor neighbor isn't typing this and pretending to be me?

Invited to study at Oxford...yeah right...let me tell you a stowwwry about Veepee getting an invitation.

When Ronald Reagan was elected president, Veepee claimed that he was "invited" to attend the president's inaugeral ball. In fact, he claimed that he was "hand delivered" an invitation from one of Reagans aides. I recall this incident quite well...heard it from Veepee's lips myself. Well, he wasn't quite honest...Actually, what happened was, when Reagan was elected, they sent out several hundred invites to the ball...the main ball, that is. They also sent out several thousand invites for the smaller balls that were to take place in various parts of the country...for folks who didn't make the "main ball list"...the one that Reagan, himself was to attend. The smaller balls that took place were attended by numerous contributors, prominent business people, various clergy, and other supporters. They sent out thousands of these invites...THAT's the invite that Veepee got...and on top of it all, he had to ask for it!...I was told later, by someone who knows, that ANY "clergy" who asks for one of these invites to one of the smaller balls...will receive one...Veepee attended and nobody there knew him...he was treated like any other spitsucker that weasled himself an invite. He ate his roasted chicken and slipped out the back door...somewhat humiliated. Wierwille had made it sound as if the president was asking for him, like an old testament king calling on the prophet...LOL!

So, what's my point? The point is that Veepee was an incredibly insecure man who constantly needed to pretend to be some "great one". He lied on numerous occasions to further this myth. He allowed other people to lie in order to maintain this myth...snow on the gas pumps? When considering his "doctor" status, it would be totally inconsistant of wierwille NOT to lie about his credentials! It would be a major shock is Veepee were to be found telling the truth about his miserable self!!! Pikes Peak bible college? What a joke...the guy was a grifter and a con man...wierwille was a doctor, just like he invented the hook shot...

I suppose there are plenty of people in this world like Martindale...usually we commit them to mental institutions. The problem arises when people like this are allowed to speak into a microphone.

Because the "...complete collection of his teaching record" was a compilation of all that he stole from other writers, Veepee never did "make it his own" in practice. What came out of his cornfield piehole was a far cry from how he lived his life. Wierwille the hypocrite, was a liar, cheat, womanizer and a drunk. The level of intolerance he had for others was profound.

Wierwille was both anti-semetic and racist. I recall Veepee telling the story of how his brother was killed in a car accident by a black guy...he claims that it took a long time for him to "get over" his negative feelings towards blacks. I assert that he never did get over it...He ordained Lonnell Johnson and kept Claudette on center stage because he saw an opprotunity to expand his marketing base...

He hated Jews even more...During a couple of Advanced classes that I attended, he promoted such books as "Myth of the six million" and other anti-semetic publications. He often claimed that it was a mistake to make Israel such a close ally and to give them so much money. He claimed that the "so-called" Jews in the world today were not genetically, the Jews of the bible. He claimed that the Jews were no longer God's "Israel"...or His "chosen people".It was easy to see his "proud German heritage" come out when he was on one of his anti Jew tirades...I even heard him say once, that Hitler was "right on" with a lot of his ideas!

No Mike...Satori is right...you are more of a specimen than a spokesman. To hold on to the myth of Veepee is disturbing to a rational mind and to promote the "complete collection of his teaching record" is nothing more than an attempt to extend the damage that these harmful anti-Christian doctrines have already caused. Although I find you to be a source of amusement, I am also concerned for your mental hygiene. Have you considered any professional help?