oldiesman

Wordwolf, Your sins may not be as bad as vp's, but i bet you wouldn't be that excited about a website dedicated to unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of your life, would you? And if that would occur, would that be ok, for any imperfect man to be a judge of another inperfect man's sins, 24/7? Maybe you wouldn't object to that, after all, wrongdoing is wrong, isn't it? So let's shout it from the rooftops. I think that might be a point that What The Hay was trying to make. God is the ultimate Judge, not man; even if one thinks they know so much about another man's sinful life. :)-->

Steve Lortz, Can you share what a typical day at Momentus was like, if you remember? (redeemed time analysis of momentus? :)-->) We seem to be getting mixed reports here and since your experience wasn't as good as the others perhaps you can give us specific accounts leading to your disdain about the training ...

I think what Steve says is pretty common, so why dump on CES? Don't you think it's pretty much human nature for leaders to stick with certain principles and tend to be loyal to those principles? I think what Steve is saying is pretty much correct. But, why dump on John Lynn because he's not prone to change from his positions? I don't see or know of any bastions of objectivity, do you? Have a great weekend! :)-->

Steve, you keep on harping on this but may I suggest this again: virtually all religions, and all peoples, act like they know it all (or know what's correct) and are not prone to change (except Lindyhopper) ;)--> Try it for yourself. Go talk to leaders of an organization, a group with definite principles, teachings, edicts, etc., and see if they change when confronted with opposing/divergent information. Good luck! It's that way all over, bro. Just because folks may believe something different than you or I, and will not (or are not inclined easily to) move from that position, doesn't make their heart deceitful and wicked.

But isn't this true of virtually all religions?And virtually everyone? Everyone is right in their own eyes ...

dmiller, I get the same impression and have had the same experience. I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES. :)-->

Unless there's ample evidence otherwise, I'd probably today put twi at #2. I'd also put the Roman Catholics there as well. I might have put these groups at 3-4 during past years with the sex scandals ... but due to the bad publicity, they may have gotten better as of late. :)-->

Excellent! Thanks John! :)-->

Here's another letter written by John Lynn to the Way Believers, dated March 30, 1988. March 30, 1988 Letter Does anyone happen to have, or know anyone that has, that 37-page document he talks about? I'd love to read it if it's still available. :)-->

Socks, I fully agree. So what's the answer? Are they now formally teaching that adultery is wrong, or not? Inquiring minds want to know. :)-->

Oh me too! He was yet another reason why my time in twi-1 was decent. I went right back to his twig after the wow year ended. :)-->

I know John Lynn from his Limb Coordinator days in New York. On my second WOW year (1979-80), I was sent to Little Rock, AR. Early on, I was having big big doubts about it. In fact, the second week there, I was contemplating leaving. I called my TC back in New York, and he consoled me, and after the discussion he said it was ok with him if I returned to NY and everything will be ok. I called John Lynn, and told him my misgivings about staying in AR. "I spoke with my TC and will probably be coming back to NY". "What?" John said... "I don't want you back here!"... Then John asked "Who's your twig coordinator?" I said "well, I don't want to tell you because then he'll get in trouble" :D--> I'm so glad I didn't tell him. ... But John Lynn helped me see that it was wrong to leave the field after I had made the commitment, so I'm glad for the tough love. I thought he was a funny guy but also had a lot of love mixed in. :)-->

So then according to this new class, adultery is wrong?

I'm not up on everything about Islam, but I think the difference with Christianity and Islam (and all other religions) is, we have Jesus Christ, who laid down his life as payment for the sins of the world. The same Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. To my knowledge, no other existing religion compares with the sacrifice of Christ, which makes the new birth possible. All other religions, to my knowledge, are based on your own personal good works to attain salvation, if it's available at all. Christianity is based on the finished work of Christ, and the grace of God. In sum ... with Christianity, Christ is your saviour. With other religions, you are your own saviour. :)-->

Whether or not one has or hasn't taken Momentus is irrelevant; the fact is, one doesn't have to engage in victim mentality if one doesn't wish to. :)-->

My take on this is when JAL first started his own group, he was much more personally and emotionally disturbed about events in twi and his own removal/departure, thus the unrelenting negatives about Victor Paul Wierwille at that time. Fast forward a few years, and now he sees that lots of what was taught in twi was accurate, obviously by their own teachings in CES, and therefore, has a more respectable view than before, at least about some of the doctrines taught. I get some things from CES; tapes and such. I too am leary of following them ... but keeping in contact doesn't hurt if you still believe in some of the goodies we were taught in twi. They don't engage in financial pressure, and do teach and preach that adultery and fornication are ungodly, something that twi still hasn't done adequately. Their newsletter is free of charge. :)-->

Excellent perspective. Thanks John. :)-->

Me too. :)-->

With a name like Matthew J. Slick, is it that surprising that his information is erroneous? :)-->

Here's another book that was sold by the TWI-1 bookstore once upon a time: The Hoax of the Twentieth Century In Chapter 1 of this book, by A.R. Butz, he writes a short paragraph about the Myth of the Six Million, that I thought was interesting:

The Myth of the Six Million Online PDF

Wierwille on CD Rom "Take Dr. Wierwille to the beach with you" :)-->

Just a guess, it may have something to do with Donna Martindale still being there. She's still there, still uses the "Martindale" name, still probably has regular contacts with him, and still wields power, authority and influence. If she ever broke ties with Martindale and changed her name back to Lombardi, and after that they're still selling Martindale's stuff, then I'd really wonder what's what.

And the problem is? I don't see anything in there about not dating an unbeliever or someone not affiliated with twi. By the way, I don't know if it's true anymore today, but when I was involved with the Roman Catholic church, it was considered a great sin and a wicked act for a Roman Catholic to marry a Protestant. So this is really nothing new.

Broad blanket statements like this throw me off. First, you might want to try convincing folks that twi-1 was a scam to begin with. If that question is settled in the affirmative, then question whether Uncle Harry was in on "the scam."Something I would consider "scam-like" is Dr's definitions and supposed results of tithing. But that wasn't the whole ministry.