oldiesman

Oakspear, Speaking of mind control, ok then, would you say the same thing about the Roman Catholic church, that they imploy the techniques of mind control? They too believe the pope speaks for God. Personally, I prefer to think of these folks, and TWI folks, as they themselves deciding what religion they wish to practice, what God they wish to worship, who they wish to worship, etc., rather than thinking they are under some sort of mind control. This is America after all, freedom of religion. But I believe that if TWI engaged in mind control and we were in fact brainwashed, then most all other religious people are brainwashed as well. Universities brainwash people, etc. etc. That's sort of why I don't like to paint a broad brush like that.

Steve, go back and read what I was responding to. It had to do with a statement about mind control, not adultery...

LOL... www.greasespotcafe.com

Jonny, I think you prove that "abuse" can also be a state of mind. I suppose someone else in the same circumstance could have portrayed themselves as a victim of abuse. Thanks for sharing.

Oakspear, yes I agree with you on that. All I'm saying is, if you be fair you'll also see this in a whole lot of other religions. It isn't entirely a Way phenomenon to think that the leaders speak God's will and are thought of as men of God. That's the point I was making. BTW, I know very little about life in TWI-2 so feel free to correct my errors on that all you want ... I left TWI in 1990.

Lightside, We know there were healings in twi, but VP continually said that the emphasis of the ministry was "the Word" and not "healings". Do you remember that? and him saying that if the healings never came to pass, "it's still the Word"? Also, I'm not sure that we "got tricked" because we were taught what we had in Christ. To each his own, I guess.

I disagree that married couples who made a decision to have an abortion were sexually abused. What damn nonsense. They had that option open to them, they made the decision, and right or wrong, are responsible for it. Now years later they claim it was TWI's fault? What if it were planned parenthood doing the counselling? I suppose it would be their fault as well. I knew a married couple in TWI who didn't plan to get pregnant, but did. They made the decision to get the abortion, for whatever reason; I don't know if they were counselled about it but it was none of mine or anyone else's business. It was an option open to them, and they chose it. Now is it fair to blame TWI years later? Whatever you believe is your choice, go ahead, but my vote is I don't think they were sexually abused by any stretch of the imagination.

Hey Bob, thanks for sharing. No, I didn't read Valerie's full story. Could you give directions to where it is? I'd like to read it. Thanks bro

And if we adhere to Rev. Liberty's teaching, the participant could even INITIATE the contact, but the responsibility and entire blame for the incident and resulting consequences falls on the minister alone? Ok, whatever... BTW, nothing personal here...just expressing my thoughts and opinions.

A participant decides to have sex, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have sex without using protection, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, but the participant bears no responsibility for getting pregnant. Blame someone else. A participant decides to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, then's advised to get an abortion and decides to get one, but the participant bears no responsibility for their actions. Blame someone else. Question: Is there any point at which a participant bears at least SOME responsibility for their own actions?

These are rhetorical questions and don't need to be answered but food for thought: If a young girl can be influenced by someone to get an abortion, were they really ready for motherhood to begin with? Whose decision was it, right or wrong, to get the abortion? Would it have been better to have a minister preach that abortion is murder, then have the burden of bearing a child you didn't really want or plan for?

I know of no instance when Dr. V or Craig said they "cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know." That seems a little over the top, because everyone makes mistakes and folks who've been around the ministry for years know that they (VPW and LCM) have made mistakes. Also, if twi engaged in mind control because the adherents believed that the words spoken by the leaders were "from God", or "revelation", then so many many other religions engage in mind control as well. Let's face it, twi is not alone in this respect.

dizzydog is right. it doesn't make any sense to start new threads when there are open questions. i'm still waiting for answers to the PFAL ERRORS thread. thank you.

Bob that's so funny, thanks for the memories.

Bob, yeah that's me alright, 29 years ago... LOL... Geeze to be young again, Valerie thx for the memories. I'd like to find out where Brother Wyda disappeared to, does anyone know? Sorry for the derail but I have to share this story about what kind of a great Christian brother Bob Hansen is: On the Amarillo WOW year I'm driving my wow sister's Opel Manta down the highway, I get in the left lane to pass and get side-swiped by a huge truck. It demolishes the car and the truck disappears. A policeman comes on the scene (a way believer!) and a bit later, my wow sister who owns the car, and Bob Hansen to the rescue. As my WOW sister leers at me with a look of disdain and disgust on the vile peon slimeball who recked her car, Bob surveys the situation, and with razor sharp wisdom says, "well, the devil just tried to kill Phil." He then proceeded to lend us his car, "old blue" which performed admirably for the rest of the year. Bob you got me out of the soup that day and I'll never forget that. Thanks so much. Now back to our regularly scheduled Wierwille-bashing.

Hey Bob, could you send me that pic, I might be in that... oldiesmanpics@aol.com

Linda Z said: I can't say it any better and this reflects my experience as well. Thanks Linda.

Song, I still SIT after all these years and think that was one of the crown jewels of TWI-1. Thankful for J.E. Stiles and Victor Paul Wierwille for the meticulous teaching...

Dmiller, Instead of just giving them away, why not sell them on ebay? There are folks on ebay who would be happy buying them and you'll make some money. However, if you don't want to do that and you won't be persuaded, I'll gladly take them off your hands. LOL... email me if you want at oldiesmanpics@aol.com

I recall what was said at one point was that TWI was not a church, but when they had that tax problem with the state of Ohio, they eventually won in court and proved that TWI was in fact a church. Other than that, I can't imagine why VP would say that TWI wasn't Christian, or TWI despises Christianity. I highly doubt you'll find anything from VP like that around.

Garth, Has nothing to do with the integrity of the Word, but believing something very evil about a person who means something to you and you love. The allegations of VP being a rapist and a serial rapist have been over-the-top for myself and the others I know who never post. Some folks I know don't even believe he committed adultery, let alone raping someone, and think the very allegations are the work of the devil, and most don't want to hear it and consider it unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Try to look at it this way. If someone you loved was accused of being a serial rapist, you'd probably be disturbed about it very much. You'd probably either want to ignore what people are saying, to shield yourself from the allegations, or you'd want to hear everything about it you possibly could, and after hearing it try to make an informed decision based upon what was said. In this thread, I asked the question if there were any other allegations besides the two made of VPW drugging people. I don't think that's a particularly probing or obnoxious question and if someone else wishes to come forth with another allegation, that's their privilege. By the way, I've already spoken about this with John Lynn and asked him this very question, and he was kind of reluctant to get into it with me and he didn't get into many details. He does confirm that VPW had sex with many women, as was stated in The Cult That Snapped. But I get the impression that VP's alleged acts of drugging people is kind of shrouded in mystery and not very clear. And I also find it difficult to envision Howard Allen being complicit in all of this...geeze. Be that as it may, all of this are my thoughts and opinions and I don't mean any harm by expressing myself, and I sincerely hope that my words aren't taken as personal attacks.

In regards to Rev. Liberty's article: Does Ms. Liberty use the bible as her source of authority and truth? Because as far as I know, the bible doesn't give a pass to those who are complicit and initiate adultery and fornication. If I'm wrong, please supply biblical passages to argue the point.

There's a question I've wanted to ask for a while, and since this was brought up, I might as well ask. Are there any other women besides Marsha and Excathedra who claim having first-hand experience of being drugged by Dr. Wierwille? (By being drugged I don't mean just alcohol, but something was put in the drink that prohibited these women from acting responsibly, saying no, etc.)

I do think there's something to be said about the above, especially from those who knew him and didn't experience evil, but good from him. There's a viewpoint that says, "why take personally another person's alleged evil experience, when he did right by me." I think alot of ex-way people fall in this category, and don't feel obligated to jump on the proverbial finger-pointing bandwagon, which may explain why there are so many who don't post. [This message was edited by oldiesman on December 29, 2003 at 6:02.]

I'd say that VPW was in fact an intentional evil-doer. But so is everyone else! It's called sinning. It's called not being perfect. Unless one believe's the last time they sinned, it was accidental? I venture to say that if a Greasepot poster's sins were commented on, ad infinitem, and every sin and bad habit pattern, were encouraged to be brought forth and out in the open on the internet, the way they encourage and bring forth Dr. Wierwille's sins, it wouldn't be a pretty sight. It would be very nasty. It could be very devastating. Check out Matthew 5 and ask yourself if you've been perfect lately, as God is perfect. Matthew 5