oldiesman

Wordwolf, you say your uncertain whether VP Wierwille was a born again Christian. But what IS your definition of a born again Christian and how does one know for sure? Please define. Take 3 people who you believe are born again and please tell me why you believe that. Rascal, you mentioned fruit of the spirit in the past dozens of times. Please describe what fruit of the spirit is, and how we can detect it. You said in the past that it wasn't good works. Take 3 people you believe manifest fruit of the spirit and please tell me how we detect that and what are the attributes. Thank you.

My answer to that question would be my own personal observation and fellowship with him. Along with his 40+ years teaching ministry, 15 of which I observed; I also have observed fruit of the spirit; love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, goodness, faith, etc. in my dealings with him. I've spent some very short time with him in 1973 and 1975; spent a whole month with him and Mrs. Wierwille in June of 1984 on a motorcycle trip. If he was the man *of the flesh* that some posters relentlessly portray of him, then I saw a different man when I spent time with him. I know him in a different way that contradicts the way he has been portrayed here. So yes, he certainly may have seen the error of those ways and asked God for forgiveness and moved on. But even IF he didn't, I believe it still would not negate his standing as a child of God because of his belief in Jesus Christ, and I believe it wouldn't negate the truths he taught. The sins of a teacher do not negate the truths in the teaching. The teachings should be viewed separately and stand as truth or error on their own.

I agree Mike. Galatians 5 doesn't say they who do such things shall not "enter" the kingdom. Says they shall not "inherit" the kingdom. Another verse says "no inheritance" which suggests no rewards, bonuses. Perhaps we should start a thread sometime on that word "inherit" in Galatians 5 so folks who may want to view another choice besides the Rascalian Theological view of a Galatians 5 eternal death sentence may participate and do so.

I am posting on a Sunday! Wow. No I didn't. Below is the entire post which says nothing about *after the new birth* at the end of the sentence. YOU please be HONEST. In Rascal's past post it's evident that Rascalian Theology supports the idea that there are no qualifiers to Galatians 5. "it says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug" Now a qualifer is added, i.e., Paul converted, and didn't murder anymore after the new birth, so Galatians 5 doesn't apply to Paul. Well ok, but remember, Paul did continue to sin after the new birth. He still had the old man nature after the new birth and was still stinky on the inside. But it does sound a bit dismissive, like whitewashing Pauls horrible acts, because he converted. It just seems a bit of a double standard ... that some posters could be so relentlessly condemning of Wierwille and others while dismissing other equally horrible acts (and worse). And so my feeling is if one is going to have such relentless moral outrage over sin, at least be consistent across the board. BTW, Wierwillian Theology teaches that when one is converted, born again, no matter what they did or how horrible the sin was in the past, they receive a clean slate. Rascalian Theology agrees. So would appear that Rascalian Theology uses parts of Wierwillian Theology when it fits!

Not only that, according to Rascalian Doctrine (from a past posting) "people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ... shrug". Well, Paul murdered. That is a lot worse and much more damaging than young sex, so why whitewash that? "read it ... there is no room to wiggle." Have a nice weekend, one and all. :)

Ex, please feel free to PM anytime, the invitation is always open.

He sure did. He murdered Christians in the name of God. I think that's a helluva lot worse than young sex.

But we agreed to it. If we didn't, we could always leave. Ya can't seriously claim victimhood when there was always a way to escape from being "a victim."

dmiller, VMP = Victim Mentality Propaganda The key for me to believe something is mind control, is if free will is taken away. I suppose we can claim we were brainwashed by just being there, but that's not enough for me. Who chained us to the seat? Who locked the door? Who held a gun to our head? Remember, this is the U.S. of A. with freedom of religion, and we had the freedom to walk out anytime.

Yeah she does... she says its a cult because of "mind control". Of course I disagree... but I do think it's that viewpoint that feeds the VMP that helps to sell the cult books.

I found this link on GS page above. It's pretty good: Why Forgive?

I thought it was flawed ideology because it asserts that the victims' healing is contingent upon the repentence and apology of the perpetrator which may never be forthcoming. In the case of Dr. Wierwille, it will never come; in the case of Craig, Rosalie and other cast of characters, it may come, but don't count on it. So then the victim is in a state of perpetual hurt because of the inaction of the perpetrator. So basically I think this is a formula for wound addiction and perpetual victim entitlement. In contrast, Jesus is the healer of broken hearts, in him is all the keys to one's healing.

Sounds like the Democratic Party.

Stimulus Stupidity

Wow. Sorry to hear that.

This was previously covered in a GS thread here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=375330 There's a lot more information on that video than just the income tax. I think it's worth viewing.

I haven't gone back in years, but am not opposed to checking them out, singing some songs and having a cookie. And I think it'd be better to check them out in person, rather than surmising through anonymous internet sources that they're currently engaging in evil and sin.

Apples and oranges. It appears he's talking about (then) current events of a living person who (then) was currently disrupting the church with malicious words, and so forth. Current tense. I think this has NOTHING to do with the perpetual condemnation largely by anonymous sources of past tense decades-old sins of the deceased and displaced. It is interesting to note that if one compares this verse with twi; ... twi doesn't appear to return the fire of internet defamation with malicious words about their critics, and they don't forbid to receive brethren who may want to attend their fellowships. So I don't think this verse has any application to modern twi. I think it may do some folks some good to go back to a twi fellowship and check things out, see what's happening. See in person if they're hurting people and engaging in sin. Have a twinkie. There's nothing to fear and I bet the booogie man won't get ya.

What things? If you know of adulteries, rapes, fornications, plagiarisms, etc., going on today, I think it is certainly within your rights and obligations to expose them.

He certainly was. But I disagree that Jesus' actions has ANY comparison with unrelenting moral outrage about sins committed 25+ years ago largely from anonymous sources.

Apples and oranges. Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased. Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.

I don't see a mandate in God's word for his children to apply unrelenting moral outrage. I do however see forgiveness as a theme in the epistles and elsewhere. Forgiving others because one is aware of what God forgave one for, is the ticket. Here's what Jesus said about that: Mat 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

If I had to choose between lingering moral outrage and lingering forgiveness, I'd choose forgiveness. 70 X 7

[never mind] I already made my point once, not in much of an arguing mood today. have a good one. :)

It's true. But bear in mind, that their accomplishments aren't biblically relegated to the "well-Adolph-Hitler-did-some-good- things-too" way of thinking. Their works in the Lord were labelled as such despite their sins.