oldiesman

I dare you to call him and tell him that.

WhiteDove, I'm in complete agreement with you regarding CES/STF "talking to Jesus" doctrine.

I think JAL's response here is quite good. And he's left an open invitation to those who require a detailed inquiry into his personal life to contact him directly. What more can you ask for? To me this seems much better than backbiting the guy.

Not a bad idea. I think its best to hear all sides before making a definitive judgment.

Ok, maybe we can agree that half were. Kenyon & Bullinger was; Stiles & Leonard wasn't. BUT, the only way I knew about Stiles & Leonard was thru Wierwille. Do thieves usually volunteer the names of those they stole from? INTENT.... INTENT....

Hi ROW. You question is a serious one and you know what, I don't think he had the intent to deceive people. Others disagree but that's what I think. I want to mention why I don't think he had INTENT... Consider the following: If Dr. Wierwille had INTENT to deceive and steal others' works for the INTENT of wanting everyone to believe that all his teachings came from him EXCLUSIVELY; why then, did he state, and have published in 1972 "lots of the stuff I teach is not original"? why did he have published that he "learned from men of God scattered across the continent"? why would he on numerous multi- occasions, verbally, mention that he learned concepts from various men and women that he taught later on? why would he have, for ALL TO SEE, most of the books that contain MAJOR TEACHINGS of his, in the WAY BOOKSTORE? Even giving a person's name where he learned from is poor thievery. Why even mention them, if stealing is one's INTENT? I would imagine that one of the greatest satisfactions of a thief, would be to steal the goods while simultaneously hiding "where he got the goods from", don't you think?

I agree Jonny. The Drambuie is on me. How about a swig of Vic's Egg Nog? May I also add that I believe that they'll work out their current problems and abandon the past mistakes, and as a result be even better than before.

We're back on topic now.

They're all right.

Enjoy this holiday treat, (stolen from original egg nog recipies) Victor's Egg Nog. :) Makes Eight six ounce servings: Enjoy! 1 quart whole milk 8 ounces Drambuie 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 4 eggs 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon Freshly grated nutmeg for garnish Break eggs into large bowl and whisk until frothy. Add Drambuie, vanilla, cinnamon, and allspice; whisk to combine. Slowly add milk whisking until thoroughly mixed. Pour into glasses; sprinkle on the nutmeg.

I think John S. is learning from past mistakes and making a sincere effort to change things for the better. Have one on me.

If God was in control of everything in the here and now, then I suppose he can be blamed for every evil that happens. That's why I don't think he is, among other reasons. In the new heavens and earth he will be.

In fairness to John & John, I wasn't asking for any kind of response when I emailed them ... I just pointed out that this thread existed, and gave my two cents worth. Yes I agree they should give a detailed comprehensive response, but just because they didn't give *me* one, doesn't mean it won't ever be there. Schoenheit suggested to read his book on prophesy. Not a bad idea, since I know nothing about their personal prophecy doctrine. And they disbanded the "Prophetic Council"! That's a good thing!

On Monday, I emailed John Lynn and John Schoenheit ... John Lynn emailed me back asking for a link to this thread which I sent to him. Hope he responds to all this and gives his side of the story. John Schoenheit emailed me yesterday and below is his response. I'm sure he won't mind me posting his response, as it does contain some useful information with no personal info. about anyone: I assume the PAC means the "Prophetic Council". So that is gone. Seems like personal prophesy is still around but they are examining it more closely, which I think is a good thing under the circumstances.

After the King of Nineveh (who was facilitating and presiding over wickedness) obeyed God, God didn't dethrone him. Why are you so quick to throw them down? Don't you believe in God's mercy and forgiveness?

This may be an inapplicable crude example, but it crossed my mind: God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and tell them the city will be destroyed because of their wicked ways. Jonah finally arrived, and told them what God said. The people of Ninevah believed God, and changed their ways, and the city was spared. Then Jonah was angry that the city wasn't destroyed as had been planned. Ha! Guess he wasn't ready for God's mercy. *********************** Let's see what happens here. If they repent and change, they deserve to be forgiven.

I don't see why its good to shut it down, as long as the false doctrine (that now has been quite adequately exposed) gets thrown out. I agree that different leaders may be necessary, if the current ones won't abandon the false doctrine and/or can't be trusted by folks. If they admit the error and have a desire to move on with the things of the Lord, they deserve to continue unabated. Our God is a merciful God.

I don't think these folks have departed from the faith; but, have espoused a deadly doctrine. I think if they get rid of the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" and get back to the simple truth that manifestions of the spirit are about edification, exhortation and comfort (I Cor 14:3); they'd hit a home run.

When folks know and believe who and what they are in Christ (a real foundational goodie of PFAL), they can't fall for all this crap.

Allan, thanks for sharing that. If folks who have been hurt ( and administering the hurt) would've followed Wierwilles advice in this instance, think of all the trouble that would've been avoided. All the gossip, the evil surmisings, the meddlings in peoples lives, could all have been avoided. It was all right there in PFAL :) (aka "mind your own business")

Me too ROW. Welcome.

I trow not. He taught it from Bullinger. It was not an original design, it was Bullingers design. VP thought Bullinger was a tremendous scholar, and taught lots of his stuff.

Chrispy, golly I hope JAL would elaborate on this. I'd like to hear his side. Yesterday I emailed John Lynn & John Schoenheit, mentioning about this thread and adding my two cents, that I thought the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" was destroying their group. JAL emailed me back this morning, and said he didn't know anything about this thread but asked for the link, which I forwarded to him. Hope he would share his thoughts, and particularly, his vision for the future. I'd like to hear Schoenheit's views too.

To my knowledge there is no evidence at all. Golly it's so nice to be called names again.

I really do doubt it. When there were non-tithing believers asked to leave, I suspect it had more to do with reasons other than tithing; although lack of tithing might have been considered another nail in the coffin, so to speak. To my knowledge, there were never any teachings from hq that tithing was a requirement for admission or continued involvement.