QuietThinker

Welcome back home then, y'all! It sounds like a wonderful trip and it's always nice to get away. Cheers to all, ~QT

hehe, Always did love that joke. My Mom's "Off the boat" Irish. She's little, and we call her the leprechaun, the shortest of us is ten inches taller than my mother--and we're all sufficiently scared of her. My dad is quite a mixed bag. American mutt, you might be tempted to say. It would appear, though, my cheekbones and those of my eldest brother come straight from our Cherokee great-grandmother--if photographs can be used for such evidence. and...for Mr. ham.... I'm wearing green just for today, though where that is I cannot say. For saints and sinners gone to bed wear nothing but the drunkard's red. Walk out with me and lift your glass, there's no green moss on an Irish Lass. Yours, jiggingly, ~QT

Afraid of a little friendly competition was he? .....Oh man....can't believe I just typed that. Can't believe I'm gonna post it. But, um, I am. Yours with a *snirk* ~QT

My dear Roy, Sometimes, it is the thinking outloud that says more than the most carefully crafted words. In the summer, in the evening, after we've finished dinner and baths...if the night is clear, my children and I lay in the grass and dig our toes into the dirt, and look up at the sky. The warm ground anchors us and our imaginations go to work, then my daughter asks her questions. She asks me things like, "What is air, and why can't we see it?" I explain the need for gases for our respiration and how plants work in opposite fashion so that we are ever trading back and forth. Sometimes, I build models of molecules for her, although this year she's started to build them for herself. This past summer, we lay in the grass, and her brother fell slowly asleep while she asked me about matter and anti-matter, for the definition of fission and fusion, and why light can't seem to escape from a black hole. Difficult questions for a biology person such as me, but, we came to the agreement that space can be huge and limited only by our own meager definitions. "What is matter?" she asked, finally. "It is that which exists in form," I replied. "Is it important?" she asked. "You betcha," I said. "We're all in part composed of matter." "Then, do I matter because I am made of matter?" she asked, exploring, I think, the nuances of language and the differences in words. ...And how do you answer that? A hug, certainly, and a kiss, and the strong assurance that in my life, no one matters more, but not because of simplistic composition. A reminder, today, Roy that I very sorely needed. The right words, the right time, the right way. Thanks for thinking outloud. Yours thankfully, ~QT

Welcome to the cafe, Joe... It's lovely to meet you. I'm sure you're having quite an interesting time reading what's here, but, please know that you're welcome, as are we all. Come on in and sit down, First coffee is on me... I'm looking forward to learning more :) ~QT

((((WG)))) 'nuff said by me. Just hugs. ~QT

Happy Birthday! I hope an onioneater doesn't eat onion cake on his birthday!! ~QT

Last semester, when I was having a hard time, my father (who is 80) threatened to come up here and enroll himself at my college--if only to keep his foot planted in my rear so I'd finish up what was proving a struggle. He wasn't kidding. heh heh, funny how some attitudes really have changed, isn't it? Yours smirkingly, ~QT

Hey, Rainbow'sGirl, I'm in total agreement with Kathy, here. You've wonderful insight and information to share. You have a lovely, open and generous heart. Likewise, LikeAnEagle, Kathy, and FreeAtLast--I learn so much from your additions to all the threads I read here. I am thinking about your last post, Kathy, and I, too, am pleased that there is more equality and that we are learning to view our society from more than one perspective. I would suggest that even this very thread speaks to the advance of thought. I have not noticed any of the men who've posted here speak with that other than respect and interest to the topic. No one has said, "Y'all girls just go on and have your little talk now." Patted us on our collective heads and sent us on our way. The nature of communication in forums is to share and exchange ideas and explore differences. This thread has proven to be interesting, informative, and I think we've all shown good manners. Thanks to all who've shared what they think and feel about this. I do appreciate everything I've read! ~QT

I have been thinking. I have also been up all night and am working on just a few hours sleep. I will, therefore, make my usual attempts at coherent grammar, but, I make no promises today--so please shout out if I write something requiring clarification. I think many of us have taken the questions posed and looked at them through a personal filter. I know I have. I've spent some time in consideration of the point "Women's Authority in Society," and while I'm rather a skeptic when it comes to just laying out random statistics, I believe this might be a good point in the discussion to raise the topic of Gender Bias and how it relates to us all. I have worked, as most people know, as a writer and now am in a more academic setting. I'll start with some definitions and then talk about numbers. Gender: A socially defined category in which the biological specialization of male and female are transformed by associating specific personality, role, and status traits to each sex. Gender bias: Behavior that results from the underlying belief in sex role stereotypes. Gender discrimination: Any action that specifically denies opportunities, privileges, or rewards to a person or a group because of their sex. Genderized traits: Traits such as aggression or empathy that are differentially valued by a society when displayed by males and females. Gender role identity: The sense of identity that one acquires as a result of internalizing specific social requirements of behavior based on one's sex. Gender role socialization: The process by which young children acquire the knowledge and internalize the values of socially determined sex roles. Gender role stereotyping: The process of attributing specific behaviors, abilities, interests, and values to one sex. Gender-sensitive : Instructional and other practices that take differences in gender into account. Whether we were conscious of it or not, any women reading this, including myself writing it, have probably faced some amount of gender bias and discrimination when it comes to our professions. The facts bear out that the ratio of median weekly earnings for Full-time wage and salary workers over a vast selection of occupations has not equalized since the 80s and, in fact, is widening in some areas. I will put out these numbers, published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The current data that has been analyzed is from 2001 you will notice. The data from subsequent years, from what I've read, shows the same trend, but these numbers are easily available and cross-referenced. Occupation: 2001 % women to men earnings ratio 1983 % W-toM earnings ratio Financial Managers 70.0 % 63.8% Physicians 62.8% 81.5% Securites and financial services/sales 62.9% NA Marketing/Advertising/PR 64.5% 60.1% (managers) Production Coordinators 64.6% 75.7% Sales supervisors/proprietors 65.7% 61.6% Supervisors, cleaning and building 67.2% NA service workers Designers 67.6% 66.7% Totals: 76.2% 66.7% Now, the NA in these numbers reflect data that was Not Available, and there are no estimations made for occupations of 50,000 persons or less, but I still find these numbers to be intriguing. The truth is, most people may not even be aware that their salary compares in such fashion with peers and colleagues, but, when you consider the economic status of women globally...not even in just this country...the numbers become frightening. I can provide them, so pm me if you're interested, it may not be topical here. In Throughout the History of Western Culture, Sandra Bem (professor of of psychiatry at Cornell University and multi-published author) writes: ...three beliefs about women and men have prevailed: that they have fundamentally different psychological and sexual natures, that men are inherently the dominant or superior sex, and that both male-female difference and male dominance are natural. Until the mid-nineteenth century, this naturalness was typically conceived of in religious terms, as part of God's grand creation. Since then it has typically been conceived in scientific terms, as part of biology's -- or evolution's -- grand creation. Consequently, most Americans did not see any inconsistency between commitment to equality and denial of political rights to women until the appearance of the women's movement in the mid-nineteenth century. This first wave of feminist advocacy not only established women's basic political rights; it also made the inconsistency between ideology and the treatment of women widely visible for the first time in U.S. history. Beginning in the 1960s, the second major wave of feminist advocacy raised social consciousness still further by exposing -- and naming -- the "sexism" in all policies and practices that discriminate on the basis of sex. This second feminine challenge gradually enabled people to see that restricting the number of women in professional schools or paying women less for equal work was not a natural requirement of women's biological and historical role of wife and mother but an illegitimate form of discrimination based on outmoded cultural stereotypes. Even political reactionaries began to espouse the principle of equal work. This certainly can give us something to think about when considering that the authority of a woman is like in our culture today. Additionally, Bem and other professionals use the term "Androcentrism" which means Male-centeredness, and is, again quoting Bem, "the historically crude perception that men are inherently superior to women which leads to the more insidious perception that make experience is the natural standard or, norm, and that the female experience is a sex-specific deviation from that norm." An interesting article concerning Gender Bias in Academic Sciences at MIT has brought to my attention that even in the fields known for rigorous and ruthless adherence to results based on data and replicable results is not immune from the reality of gender bias. Now, how I approach the understanding of the understanding of this information is personal, and from here to the end, my statements are just that, personal. I believe that we have, all of us here, grown up and matured in a time of transition between what was once generally accepted as the natural order of things and learned to question that order and make comparisons, adjustments and evaluations based on an ever-widening body of knowledge. To say that there is one order that is right is a difficult statement. If one bases this understanding of what is right only on one book or several, I pose the question, "Well, who wrote that book and why? What was that author's cultural context, and does that cultural context apply today in the same way?" We all must adopt a standard of some kind, I acknowledge that freely. Here I am simply suggesting that to do so without applying critical thought may be detrimental. Even as scientists, we have a very difficult time applying that standard of natural order, which is why there have been entirely new classification headings added to taxonomy even in the time since I left University the first time and my recent return to academia. I do not suggest that it is right or wrong for an individual to make a choice about what his or her individual role in society is based on the systems of belief that are dear to them. I do suggest that it is wrong to simply dismiss out of hand the ideas and beliefs of others simply because it doesn't fit into a person's specific personal lexicon. All that to say...while some may believe that my place in society is pre-determined by my gender, I don't have to accept his or her belief as truth. Performance and results speak loudly to me. If I can perform the job as well or even better than my male counterpart, then I insist that my right to equal or greater compensation based on performance is valid. How then does this affect my view on personal relationships? I can only speak to what I know. I have a person in my life to whom I am deeply attached. Part of the attraction for me is his demand that I not only be myself but accept my abilities as they are and not apologize for them. He stretches my mind in ways that are painful and speaks simple truths. He never flatters me or worse yet, patronizes me, he simply expects me to return to him the same stark honesty on equal terms. He is a simple man. He is just himself. That suits me, since I'm just me. We exist in our own spaces and manage our own, individual lives and seem to rub along fairly well. And, if, at night, when we snuggle down into the pillows, then we leave most of our cultural concerns at the bedroom door and what passes between us as conversation falls into the realm of private, secret language between lovers. And, if I bend my forehead to touch his shoulder, it is not because I've been told that is the natural order of things...it is because I trust him to handle those parts of me that are precious to myself with love and great care. If, in some ways he takes care of me it is not because I am incapable of doing it myself, or in need of care-taking, but because I choose to allow it. To me, that's an expression of my own authority--to transfer that authority to someone else when the time is right, and to pick it back up when it's time again. Oh, and Excie...yeah...it's all about love. Yours respectfully and thoughtfully and with apologies for length of post, ~QT

Hey Socks, I had the chance to perform "The wave and The nod" twice this morning as I made my circuit to the bank. I am in good humour today, anyway, and disposed to be pleased with the planet and the people on it...however, it felt terrific to give a couple of people a lift today, since traffic was extra crummy and there was little enough room on the road in the first place.ours I think R'sG has it right when it comes to "paying it forward" as the movie indicates. It's a great principle. Yours road-sharingly, ~QT

Hey Kathy, I lived not 20 miles from where the event took place when it took place. *snirk snirk* much speculation on that point! ~QT

LOL, I meant for that comment to go up with the marriage paragraph....silly QT and buttery fingers :)

Always good to hear from the fellas, Waysider! You and Oeno bring up interesting points and much to consider. Marriage is so complicated, as it is such a personal issue, the intimacy between partners and the nature of that intimacy certainly must impact roles. I have found marriage to be dynamic and rich, full of nuance and plenty of room for shared authority. Some may find it interesting, so I share the following: My father retired the year I was born and shortly after (I was about 4) my mother went back to full-time work at the hospital. This would have been about 1975. It was not traditional at that time for a man to be at home with the kids. My father, however, a retired police officer, was just what we kids needed. Later, he was a cook, drove a dump truck and was even the "avon lady". I know, you're giggling, but it's true. My dad is one of the most "authoritative" people I know...and I was too young to recognize the difference between authoritative and authoritarian when I was first involved with twi. Let me address Excie, too, in this point. Love? Oh my, yes...what a thing not to speak to in my post. At work, of course, I have several men who report to me. I don't know how that happened, but, it has. I never wanted to be in a managerial position. Because our emotional ties are not in the least affectionate--we are colleagues, the politics change a bit. However, when one of them smacked me on my butt today, as he was passing, I reminded him...as I always do...that smacking the rear end of the woman holding a scalpel is just a bad move in general. But, I have no concern as to who holds the hammer in that relationship...it's neither of us. I might be in charge of giving him work to do, but, we both report (in terms of hiring and firing) to the same person. I can hold my own in most any situation, and I don't feel threatened by him. He feels threatened by me, but that is another matter entirely. In terms of general society, I want to address that, but must think some more. And...political authority, well, I've spoken on that a bit in the other thread...but will think on that a bit more, as well. On a slightly personal note...my ex-husband and I are often asked why we are not still married. Most people who see us together notice that we appear close and certainly seem very in-tune with what's happening with our children. Now, on this forum, all I probably need say is...I will never return to twi and he is looking for a way back. That will speak to most people here. But, in the larger context of this thread, I think people respond to the fact that I appear completely at ease in his company, and I appear that way, in part, because of my confidence in my authority over my own life and decisions. It has smoothed the relationship he and I will always have, since we are bound by our children. Now...must think on society. ~QT Oh, and Kathy...about women hardening-up in the workplace? I think there is something to be discussed there too...I'm putting it in my hopper :) You *always* give me much to consider. ~QT

Ooooh...Gor. Aye, FAL...I agree with you there. I've written a lot about alternate lifestyle choices in several aspects, but, Gor...it baffles me. And skeers me too! ~QT

And considering your right ventricle is only about the size of a hardboiled egg anyway...(well a little bigger)...I'm certainly glad you did! I find this is an interesting thread for even more than just a biblical interpretation. There is that large school of thought that believes women are simply "wired" to be subordinate. I can't say that this has been my experience, but I can at least confirm what I suspect most people already know about me ... :) I tend to base my idea of what authority is based on how that authority manifests. For example, I submit to the rule of law, therefore, when I am stopped by a police officer...I don't just flip him the bird and drive off. I suppose I could try, but I don't fancy the time in jail. There were very few times in my marriage that my ex-husband tried to "lord his authority" over me. I was particularly sensitive to that anyway, having grown up with three elder brothers and being very independent. My brothers were my best practical examples of how peers operate (they were extremely fair) and my father set the personal example of deferring to my mother in many matters when her expertise was clearly greater. I suppose that means by physical example, I was taught negotiation. When I think of things now...and how I view authority in a marital relationship...I can see where even in biblical times we are talking about what has traditionally been a paternalistic society. It is only in relatively recent history where women in the west have begun to assert a certain independence. I can tell you, though, that in many eastern cultures, a female-oriented society exists and it is perfectly natural to see a woman managing, if you will, the family finances and other major decisions. For me, personally, it comes to this, I think...and I'm so interested to read what everyone else thinks, because I, too, believe this could be a really fun thread...I'll negotiate happily with a partner or husband when he brings order and reason to the table. When a final decision is reached, even when the two parties disagree, it has to be about compromise--because no one agrees on everything. I will not be dismissed out of hand, or told to keep my place because I have breasts, as it were. Neither do I think that he gets the last word because of his...physical attributes. I think history is replete with examples of strong, independent women. This history of Boudica, Queen of the Iceni has always fascinated me. And...of course...while I was writing this, my son stripped nekkid and ran out into the yard to, I suppose, express himself. So, you can see how much authority I command around here! ...and agreed with Abi, too... I've no problem with women in office. However, I think Hillary might just set back the entire cause of humanity, not just women. She skeers me. ~QT

Mmmmmmmm....bracciole...and everyone should have a recipe for bracciole internalized, engraved on the palate! Delectable! (or really crap if you got stiffed with a crummy recipe) Now I know what's for dinner tomorrow. ~QT

Yay! Happy Birthday, SV! yours celebratingly, ~QT

I do not, Groucho. I have no other information than what I've already posted--which is merely the details I've learned here that are the sum of recollections. Again, I await information from Norway. If anyone else knows...? On that I have no information at all. Respectfully, QT

Aye, Dooj, I thought the intention of the original author of the other post might have been something else entirely--so I brought my little question down here to the basement, figuring you all would take my question about the phrase itself seriously... which you all did, and for which I give my thanks. (and thanks Roy, I've been away from the boards for a while, but always feel better when a little of your kindness blows my way). and now........more studying for me, for school...much less fun! Regards, ~QT

Welcome to the Cafe, Firefly_Bella! While I personally can't help, I'm sure someone here will be able to give you some information. The search feature has always been very helpful for me when I've begun to look for specific items of interest. I suspect you've already performed some searches, but in case you haven't, it's a good place to start. Take care, ~QT

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond, I really do appreciate it! I think Roy pinpointing what my problem with the phrase has been. It seems a fine but important distinction to make in terms of faith and growth. So, thank you, Roy! And, Sudo, CMAN and EyesOpen...fanks for responding. It will help me read a bit better in other threads, I think. It *is* nice to visit you folks in the basement every once in a while....no matter what they might say upstairs! *teasing wink* Seriously though, thanks for your input. Respectfully, ~QT

Happy Birthday, Abi! I have to run to class and can't photoshop a card, but..Wow, 40...Good for you! Yours Cheeringly, ~QT

I had occasion to speak with WordWolf about this the other day, Wanderer. I believe the number he quoted me was less than 2000 adults. ...WordWolf...(or anyone), is that right? ~QT

The tape class ceased the moment he resigned, Mr. Ham...I was still in at the time, and for the next several years when they could get enough students, it was taught live by the LC ~QT