ex10

It's hard to for me to remember, sometimes, the exact circumstances and settings of things. Some are crystallized in my brain forever, other things, not. Details get fuzzy, ya know, and I have the egocentric habit of remembering my questions, more than anything else. I hope this makes sense. I worked in the teacher's room alot, and you know how intense it could get could during a big teaching event, like corps night or something. Don't even mention ROA. But anyway, sometimes after lesser important teaching events, it was actually possible to have a semi-private conversation with VPW. He would ask for feed back. Or sometimes after one of those informal sharing smaller group things, it was actually possible to ask questions. It was risky, though, cause one never quite knew what would set him off, or really touch him. Anyway, all's I remember is asking the question about Act 16, in the BRC backroom. It must've had something to do with the teaching. I remember Vince F. was there. And he looked at me like I had 3 heads. It was really bugging me, in my waybrain, "law of believing" mode of thinking, that Paul and Silas got beaten and thrown in jail for obeying the "Macedonian Call." I mean, yeah, the angel busted them out of jail, but couldn't they have done it before the beating? Looking back on it, I had alot of nerve, (without realizing it) and totally put VPW on the spot. But, he liked me. :blink: And never seemed to mind my questions. (A habit that got me into no end of trouble at Emporia, btw.) I don't want to make it sound like I was some kind of inner secret, special person that had VPW's ear all the time or anything. Or I was some kind of great bible scholar. That was NOT the case. I was just a kid, that was very naive, who worked in the backroom. As I recall, we talked a little about suffering, he quoted that verse about persecution following those who live godly in Christ Jesus. And said more work needed to be done on the subject. I believed him. I actually thought that somebody who had a research brain was gonna look into it. <_< And the question did come up again, later in a bigger more formal setting. Same answer. I was appeased for the moment. But not really. :( I hope this recounting of my foggy memory helps. I thought about pm ing my reply. But maybe somehow, if I share it in front of God and everbody, it will help somebody put the pieces together. :unsure:

That's it, socks! The enigma of it all, in my miind. Thanks for the insight. Yes, what you shared makes total sense to me. I must confess, after I re-read my last post tonight, I thought to myself, "what was in my coffee this morning?" :blink: But you have supplied another piece of the puzzle for me.

Justloafing Your post reminded me of something. I think sometimes stuff just happens, just because. I guess it's called chance. Sometimes I hear Christians and others talk about how "everything happens for a reason." I don't believe that at all. Sometimes, ramdom things happen. Example: A friend got rear-ended in traffic the other day. She wasn't "believing" for that to happen to her. She wasn't afraid it would happen to her. As a matter of fact, the thought didn't cross her mind. She doesn't think the devil was out to get her either. She just happened to be in front of someone who wasn't paying attention and talking on a cell phone. End of story. Stuff just happens, and sometimes we happen to be in its way.

There were so many straws for me. I must explain that I personally marked and avoided all way functions a couple of years before my husband did. (It was easy to do, because I had a baby in 87, and another one in 89.) So nobody seemed to notice that I was not travelling to meetings and classes. The final straw was when a fellow corps person called to talked to Hubby about the loyalty letter. It was in the spring of 89, I think. Hubby wasn't home, so he asked me what I thought. I said I thought it was a joke coming from someone who couldn't keep his pants zipped. (Ok, I was a little cranky that day.) Next thing we know, we are banned from all local way functions. The way they did it was horribly cruel, but that's another story for another time I guess.

Aw, suda, I would never call you naive or shallow. Last year when I saw you, at my nephew's funeral, it was a terrible time in my life. You'll never know how much comfort you, Mr. Sudo, and the rest of your fellowship brought to my family. It made all the difference in my life, and I know I can speak for Mom and everybody else as well. Your kindness is very much appreciated.

No, I don't believe in believing. And once I quit believing in believing, I believe my believing got a lot more believable. What I mean is, once I dropped the "law of believing," my faith makes a lot more sense. To me anyway. :mellow:

wow satori. Thanks for the insight. I was feeling like a "bad" greasespotter because I didn't get the original question. ok, now I think I do. pond, I love what you said: "We all live in our own stuff."

Socks and Raf You both make some really good points. Thank you. One thing that comes up for me in this discussion, is that there really was a mixed message in my way experience concerning PFAL. On one level, PFAL was treated as the touchstone for all bible truth. Yet, on another, there were contradictions and inconsistencies that were known and acknowledged, at least in the way corps "household." There are quite a few examples, but one that comes up for me immediately is the role of suffering in the life of a believer. I remember having questions about Acts 16, for example, when Paul and Silas obeyed the Lord and went to Macedonia to preach the gospel and then got thrown in jail and beaten for their faith and obedience. To a certain extent, it was okay (in the corps household) to have questions and even talk about it out loud, but egads, don't ever directly challenge PFAL, or VPW's interpretation. Whatever you do, don't get combative, was the message I got while in. But, honest, sincere questions were acceptable in some circles. (As I write this, I am fully aware that some got thrown out on their behinds for disagreeing with PFAL, and were horribly treated.) But there were times.......when there was a nod in the direction of "further research is needed." ( I don't know if that was your experience or not, socks, since you were an "earlier generation" of corps than I was.) I have found the same thing to be true in the churches I've been a part of. I mean, as long as one doesn't openly challenge what a church considers to be etched-in-stone-biblical truth in a combative manner, there is a chance that sincere searching and questions will be met with consideration. Just my experience, fwwiw. Doctrinal "likemindedness" has taken a back seat for me in my "walk" I admit. I just figure that many of the trinitarians and other church people who disagree with MOI, are beloved of God just the same as I am. And it behooves me to treat them as such. Ok, I think I'm through ranting..... :unsure:

I feel I should qualify my last post. I knew about much of the docrinal error of PFAL fairly soon after leaving TWI in 87ish. (Thanks mainly to friends that are smarter than I.) Doctrinal error played a large part in hastening my exit. But I didn't know about the plagerism and the depth of it, or the moral failure of VP personally. I knew about many others who were "top leadership," but I only had suspicians about VP. He was innocent until proven guilty in my eyes. I now know about his personal, moral failures. Just wanted to clear that up.

Hi suda, I felt much the way you do about VPW, for years after leaving TWI. But over time, after hearing many, many stories I know (experiencially) to be true, and putting the pieces together from talking and listening to the patrons of this cafe, I have CHANGED MY MIND. And I have learned that it's not a crime, to change my mind after learning more facts. It's perfectly acceptable to do so. I hope you enjoy the menu here. :)

Some of the things we did were so out of the loop for most of my ex-way (as in never been way, I mean) friends, that I just didn't talk much about them. Not only the chicken murdering twig, but hitchhiking across the country several times, picking up and moving to cities with strangers, where I new no one, and only had a couple hundred bucks to get situated -- not once, but twice. Washing windows for a living, going to an unaccredited Bible college in the middle of Kansas for two years......the list goes on and on. So it's really nice to share stories with people who GET it because they did the same things. :huh:

John, for me as a former way corps person, it is much harder to seperate VP and his actions from PFAL. After all, I enlisted in the way corps to "sit at the feet of the master," after he himself "recruited" me for the program. If I had only known what I do now............

I first discovered Waydale one night when my brother called me and told me somebody in the old waydale chat room was looking for me. B)

Oh and I forgot to add, helping others make sense of some of the crazy, insane things we did. Like kill 435 chickens in one afternoon. Egads.

One of the most satisfying experiences for me on Waydale was posting MY chicken killing story after I read Groucho's and realized that he and I were in the same chicken murdering twig and yes, I WAS THERE. :D It was my first post on the net, after years of lurking, and I was hooked after that.

Bliss I'm guilty as charged. lol but, seriously, I hope it goes well for you.

marko, dooj, and anybody else lurking who is fairly new to GS...... There is a history among some of us posters that you I'm sure are not aware of. B) Some of it is not so pretty. It's a little messy, in fact. That's all I wanted to say..... Carry on. :)

Mike Here's what I'm talking about. You are the worst advertisement for PFAL that there ever was. There are some folks here who value some of the stuff that was taught by VP in PFAL and its progeny. You know, classes, books, and such. But you so twist and warp it, that even folks who want to take something good away from it, end up questioning whether they can do that or not. It's because of your haughty arrogance, and inability to engage in civil, halfway intellectual discourse. You just can't seem to control yourself, which is a really bad example for those who want to do better by PFAL. You really stink at getting your (twisted) message across. That's what I mean. I am now putting you on "ignore" so don't bother answering me. I am done with this thread and you. Hey, I am marking and avoiding you. Selah.

Will somebody just please kick his butt now?

:blink: you can't be serious.

Raf, Thanks for the "misogynistic." I was wondering if females would be allowed here. :blink: Guess not. Mike can't seem to play nice when it comes to the fairer sex. So I thought I might as well ignore this thread now, instead of later. :)

Believe it or not, I recently did a design project for a single guy down in Houston. I had to work with his black lights and peter max posters. He had a huge bong sitting in the corner of his "media room." The first thing I wanted to ask him was what kinda drugs he did. I'm wonderin, "hey, are you just into smoking pot, or do you still do psychodelics?" But of course, one can't keep one's professional demeanor and go there, so.........I did the best I could. I sold him a bunch of Ethan Allen furniture, though. And his "media room" look pretty nice when I got done. Aye, chihuahua. What one does, to make a living........... Please forgive. :)

Thank you. laleo. I think I can breathe now. I don't know why, but that post was really hard for me to write.

I just have to say.....in as few words as possilble....that extwi at Waydale, and now Paw here at GS, gave me the chance to tell my story of my involvment in the way. Honestly, before waydale, I had told my own personal story of stuff, and got alot of.........."why didn't you speak up?, how could you go along with all that crap? you KNEW?" ad infinitum. I don't exactly understand the why's and wherefore's, I was NOT, I repeat NOT, an important somebody in TWI. But I witnessed alot of stuff while in the corps, and had many experiences with family members, that made me a Homeless Way Person, after leaving. In other words, I saw I alot of sheeeet, that I couldn't talk to anyone about. I had too much at stake with family, and I went to church., so I didn't feel free to talk about stuff. That fact was my dysfunction as much as anybody elses. Extwi believed me, when I told him about the crap that happened to me. And he didn't condemn me, pontificate, lecture, throw bible verses at me, etc. He listened. And cared. Paw has done the same thing. Here, I have always felt the freedom to tell my story, get silly, get involved in serious stuff, and yet still feel safe in doing that. Honestly, I never had that before. It has totally changed my life. That is the understatement of the century.

ok, maybe not peter max. but andy warhol, at least. :D