ex10

Ok, Johnny, I get your message. Any tips on HOW? Anybody whose a Christian, or maybe just a pedestrian passing through, needs to forgive those who have sinned against us. Got it. Just how might one go about it?

Somehow, someway, being locked in a bedroom with some important somebody, high and mighty rev, taking his shirt off and asking me to give him a backrub while offering me a beer, doesn't seem like it's even worth talking about. But......in the context of forgiving.....I know many of us have suffered much worse. Thank you for your transparency, and sharing so much of yourself.

Mark, I get it, I think. But, I happen to live in the world of relationships with other humans. And I would really like to be the best human I can be. (Blame catechism, I'm telling ya, it STICKS.) So, idealism and spiritual aspirations aside, I gotta get along with people in my world, and make a contribution that matters. Can you translate?

Perzactly diazbro. Finding the balance is the real challenge..........IMHO. Forgive...........yet, still be strong and no longer a victim or a weeney, and exuse obvious and blatant SIN.

dooj It's in Matt. 5 and Luke 6.

Over coffee with a friend recently, I was reminded of an incident when one of my precious cherubs was in kindergarden. It was springtime, right before Easter. Said child gets off the bus and comes running in the house, breathless. "Mom, MOM! You will never guess what I learned in school today!!!!" Me: "And what's that, honey?" She was obviousy dying to share some hitherto unknown secret of life. "Eggs come out of chicken's butts!!!!! Did you know about this?" she demands. With all the composure I could muster, (said child used to get mad at me if I busted out laffing at stuff she'd say, so I'm repressing a belly laff as best I can) "Uh, well, yeah, I am aware of where eggs come from. I just never quite thought of it that way, though." Upon further cross examination, and search and seizure of her backpack, I discovered a little book given to her by teacher that had all kinds of photos of chickens and eggs and a little chick being hatched. "But eggs are really good for you and taste good too," says I. "Well," she says thoughtfully, "I still think we should rethink scrambled eggs for breakfast." The kid was 5. :blink: Anybody else have recollections?

Rascal, I think that is where the boundary lies. Just because I chose to forgive someone, it's for ME, MYSLEF, AND I. Does it mean that the person I chose to forgive is released from accountablity for their own actions? Heck no. Does it mean I naively allow that person to victimize me again? NO! Does it mean I make excuses for them? NO! Forgiveness comes from a position of great strength, not weakness. When I chose to forgive someone who has wronged me, I am reaching out to Jesus Christ and his strength, mercy, love and freeing myself from another's sin against me. Reconciliation with that person may or may not be a factor. But it's a different issue. I don't know how to say it any better.

Rascal Could it be there is some confusion between forgiveness and reconciliation? As mark pointed out? I don't see repentance as a pre-requisite for forgiveness, but denfinitely for reconciliation. FWIW

The question that comes up for me is this: As a Christian, I am commanded to "love my enemies." How can I do this, without forgiveness? And is my "love" dependent on the actions of others? Didn't Jesus talk about "loving only those who love us?" I can't find anyplace in the bible where it says I am only to love and forgive those who repent. Am I missing something here?

Sigh...... Mike For some reason, you seem incapable of hearing what I am saying to you. You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences. If you indeed want to "teach" somebody something worthwhile, might I suggest you work on your listening skills? Your responses to me, usually have nothing to do with anything I've said. They have everything to do with whatever is going on in your own head. Frustrating........

Yeah, t-bone. The word "ineffable" comes to mind.

One thing that this discussion has brought up for me, is the inextricable link between love and forgiveness. For anybody who is Christian, we are commanded to love God and one another. True, bold, courageous, biblical, God fearing love is not possible without forgiveness. That's why it is such an important topic. And like Mark stated, I think there are many misconceptions about what true forgiveness really is, and how it differs from reconciliation. So, my opinion, but if I as a Christian say that I love God and my neighbor, but then turn around and refuse to forgive those who have wronged me, then I am a hypocrite. And it takes work, dangit, to forgive. I wish this business of love and forgiveness was a little easier. <_<

I have to admit that in the incident I shared above, if my husband had been in the dining room either with, or instead of me, the interim corps staff guy NEVER would have acted like he did to me, to him. He wouldn't have had the noive.

ok, after reading 11 pages of this banter, I think I've figured out Dove doesn't like being referred to as a Wierwillite. I would never call you one, either, Dove. Knowing you for all these years, I could never ever categorize you as a sycophant of VPW.

mark That was an excellent synopsis of Matt. 18:21ff. Thanks for that.

By the way, said dweeb is still with TWI, and pushing people around. I wish so bad I had the chutzpah to stop him then. The machinery was already in place, though. Nobody could really stop it, I don't think.

My biggest "confrontation" story is a tad bit different. I'm not telling it to make myself look more "righteous" than anybody else or anything, but to explain some of the bs was going on before many of us realized that "bs was going on." Hubby and I were branch coordinators in KS, in a place that was near Emporia, but an hour away on the tollroad. Every year, at "holiday time," our branch as well as others in the state were given the (dubious) honor of "blessing" the way corps at Emporia. So we "volunteered" to work the annual Christmas party. Ok, I forget what it was called. One year, I guess it was umm, the 13th corps' interim year, so that would be? Christmas of '83? I guess. Lotza faithful, wonderful believers from our branch agreed to go up and help with the party. As they did every year, and had been doing since the beginning of time. (Ever since the tradition started) Many of us agreed to go up on Friday night before the Saturday nite doo. I happened to be the one in charge of our branch volunteeers. Of course. (I was the almighty branch coord's wife in charge of all that hubby didn't have time to do. Which by the way, is another story in itself.) Anyway, that meant leaving work on Friday after working a full week, and driving an hour to get there and help. This particular year, we had horrible weather, and getting to Emporia on Friday nite, in December, was an act of believing God. Literally. Snow and ice on the toll road. We get there. Fried and tired. Start working. Work til midnite or so, go to bed in guest housing, get up early the next morning, start working more. Spend the whole freekin Saturday, getting everything ready, working our tails off. Dinner and dance happen, corps is blessed, we lowly twigites are burnt out and tired. And have to go to work on Monday. After the dinner and dance activities, many corps are just kinda wandering around campus wondering how they can help clean things up after the doo. God bless them, they were used to "volunteeering." I'm in the dining room, trying to help clean up the mess, along with twigites. We are so tired, we can hardly stand it, and many twigs had Sun. morning fellowship the next morning they had to be back for. One twig leader, comes over to me and says, "the weather is bad, so son and I are going home. We have twig tomorrow with new people." I say, God bless, thank you so much for being here, be careful driving home." The little Interim corps dweeb overhears and says: "Hey wait a minute, you can't leave, we aren't finished yet. Where is your committment?" The corps needs to be blessed, and I AM NOT GOING TO LET THEM HELP YOU. It's all it took for moi and dweeb to get into a full blown, fist clenching, shouting/cussing match. (I don't cuss, he did.) Ended up, I told all of the volunteers from our branch to quit working and go home, or just hang out, do whatever you need to, to be "blessed." Dweeb threatened to go to corps coordinators and "tell on me." I beat him to it, went and kncoked on the Lynn's apartment door at midnite. Of course, they were surprised to see me, I just busted in. Explained situation, broke down crying and said I freekin quit. If you are gonna let Nazi's like dweeb push our believers around, I am so outta here. JAL took care of situation. ( Went over to dining room, rounded up corpbees hanging around, and got stuff together for the next am.) I told him and his wife, that he needed to talk to moi and hubby before he unleashed his corps on us. Aye corumba, it was just the beginning of many more "confrontations" involving our limb/region coord., corps coords, and us. Fortunately, our limb/region guy was on our side and agreed that we should be involved in stuff involving our branch, whether it was Lightbearers, "witnessing week-ends", "days in the Word," whatever. JAL understood as well, and was FABULOUS at communicating with us ever after. I have to say, it was usually the few people who thought they were way more important than anybody else, who were the Nazis. (and of course, I was one of them, once upon a time.) There is way more to this story than I care to relate now, but I'm telling you, the "confrontation wars' started way back.

Rascal, and Krys, whoever Mark is so right in what he says. The thing to remember is that forgiveness on my part, is for ME! It doesn't have that much to do with the person who wronged me. If I hold bitterness and grudges against those who have wronged ME in the past, I am a slave to that sin that was perpetrated against me. I get victimized over and over by letting that evil person and what they did come up in relationships I have presently. Forgiving them, lets ME let it go, and move on in my life and relationships without being held captive by the past. Like mark said, I'm sure somebody can look up the verses and do a bible teaching on it, if they think it neccessary. I don't. I forgive, because it frees ME, to move on in my life. Period. I don't give a rat's behind if they deserve it or not, are dead or alive, or still sinning, or whatever. I am not gonna carry the weight of THEIR SIN the rest of my life. I refuse.

Ohmigosh! Full agreement on Greasespot...A miracle has happened in our very midst.

Ain't it amazing, t-bone, that we could both come to similiar conclusions? :o Maybe it's cause we are led by the same spirit, the same Lord? The difference between us might be, that I find myself praying to/worshipping/asking guidance of the Lord Jesus as much as I praise our Father. After all, it was God's idea to give him a name above every name, that every knee will bow to (worship) when he is revealed in all his true glory. I don't want to be surprised when it happens. :D I figure as much of a head start as I can get now, will only help me later. Seriously, Jesus is in charge of his church right now, and if I want to be a player, I gotta be tight with him. God's best to you and yours, t-bone.

Mike You said: "The known entity is that PFAL once worked well for us and we saw that it was from God. " Speak for yourself, please. I knew tons of "researchers and teachers" when I was in TWI, and am surrounded by ex-ways since leaving. I don't know anyone who thought that PFAL was error free, or contradiction free. Then or now. There were always "problems." Doctrinal as well as practical. Anybody I know/knew who was a thinking human was aware of this fact. Sure, many, myself included believed that PFAL, for the most part, was a pretty good bible class. But that is different that what you are saying. Now I'm alot older and wiser, as are most others in my little corner of the world. Going backwards, and embracing a class that for all practical purposes is not "available" any more, is not a route that I want to pursue in my efforts to be a follower of Jesus Christ. If you want to go there, fine. I'm sure you've got plenty of company. But obviously most of us who have posted here, are not interested in "mastering PFAL." Been there, done that, found it lacking, as have most of us here, especially us who were corps bees. Have a nice day. :) :) :) :)

I don't ever engage in the Trinity wars. I grew up believing the Trinity, but could never make sense of it. I got confused as a kid figuring out who to pray to for what. When I got involved with TWI, it was about the same time that "JC Is Not God" came out. When somebody in my twig told me there was no trinity, I was actually rather relieved. Now, I lean towards the Unitarian perspective. But I see valid points on both sides. So I'm not 100% convinced. I do however, believe that worshipping Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is a very good thing. I pray to and worship Jesus in my personal life, as well as God my Father. I don't worship the Holy Spirit, and at present have no plans to. Neither do I pray to the Holy Spirit. Does worshipping Jesus make him God? Well, if it does, I'm either an idalotor or trinitarian. :unsure: But I still do not think of Jesus, God, and Holy Spirit as one and the same thing. But I have absolutely no problem with people who think they are a three in one deal most of the time. Where I see the biggest problem is when somebody can't get the idea that Jesus was a man, who was tempted in all things as we are, and made a free-will decision to obey God his Father. He had a choice. He didn't have to live a sinless life and then sacrifice himself. That is a problem that I have seen become a real stumblingblock for those of the Trinitarian persuasion. There are other points too, but that seems to be the main one. And on the other hand, many of the Unitarian, ex-way persuasion, can't understand the relationship we are to have with Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They think it's idolatry to pray to and worship him. Even though there is clear evidence in Acts that the believers did so. And that most revelation was from Jesus. Makes sense since he is head of the church, and in charge of directing its affairs. So I see problems with both camps. But anyway, I don't think it's as big a deal as many on both sides want to make it. But it also can depend on what one's gifts are in the church, too, how much one struggles with the issue. I guess if somebody is a research brain, they probably aren't satisfied til they've solved the dilemna one way or the other. And if you're a teacher, responsible for enlightening others, I guess you better pretty well have it figured out enough to communicate effectively. The answer to the whole thing probably lies somewhere in the middle, I'm guessing.

I was wonderin the same thing, Belle. The other T

Hey ya'll ninth guys are welcome over here anytime. Seeing as how it's just us ladies, since Johnny is playing hooky. And we've got beer, too, and fine wine thanks to dooj, and jack black, compliments of top. So come on over for ladies night.

Their believing is bigger.