ex10

I think there is a HUGE difference between bible study and biblical research. Seems in TWI, we were taught rudimentary study skills. And even some of those are/were questionable....... If anybody did any "real research" they usually got bounced out on their behind sooner or later.

We went to the outdoor service this morning at the Pavillion in our town. It was a perfect, beautiful morning. We were sitting in the grass up on the back hill overlooking most of the goings on. There is something so moving about 10,000 people singing about serving a risen saviour. Twas a beautiful service, with a simple message. "He Lives!"

Something Bagpipes reminded me of on another thread....... We all live in a screwed up world, where if we live long enough, we will have to struggle with suffering, shame, fear, anger, envy, jealously, despair, all the "darker" emotions of human experience. Nobody is immune from life's tragedies. Yet I think there is always HOPE. And no matter how badly we have suffered, there is redemption possible in all of it. I guess this being Easter week-end has got me thinking of what JC went through, what he made possible for each and every one of us, no matter what we have been through. There will always be "Chrisitans" who want to minimize the suffering and pain of others. Ironic, isn't it?

Hey pipes! I am so glad this book has made an impact. I remember when I read it for the first time, it was about 10 years ago, and I really wanted to understand shame and suffering and the place it has in our lives. As I read through this book the scales fell off my eyes. I hope and pray the same is happening for you, my dearest friend.

Wordwolf FWIW. I think your last post was pretty insightful. Thanks for that. You too Satori.

AW, suda. Thank you so much for your patience and graciousness with me. I'm so sorry I misunderstoond your post. After re-reading your words this morning, I had an "aha" moment and think I understand. Your point of view has been refreshing, and much food for thought. I guess I just don't think of certain posters as coming off as bitter, as much as just plain venting. I've done it a few times myself here, over the years. :) The internal churning, I understand. Like Shaz said, I don't think it's so much what happens to us that matters, but how we respond to what happens. And it is love that is at stake. There is much wisdom in those words, I think. Thank you again, for your graciousness and kindness, suda.

suda, sigh..... Some of the posters here were sexually abused by Way leaders. Please don't judge others by your experience. Thanks for the kudos, but truth be told, many here experienced way bad things at the hands of "way ministers." Sometimes, it gets to be a bit much. Even for me.

Yeah whatever, wordwolf, I get sick of the whole discussion. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, I just can't go certain places over and over again. I get tired. So sorry.

Never mind. I started to say something, but..............sigh..........it's a waste of breath for me. Nevermind.

I think I've said this before, but what's one more time? When I heard about John Schoenheit's firing from the Research Dept. and then actually read the paper, I realized the cover-up had begun. Why fire a guy for simply stating in a paper that adultery is sin? Duh. Seemed like a no-brainer for a "Christian" organization. And then fire/demote anybody who admitted to actually reading the thing????? What??? Last time I looked this was still America and I can read any darn thing I won't to. And it ain't nobody elses business. I pretty much figured that was the beginning of the end. The funny thing is, I didn't know, at that time, that VPW was the prime offender. I knew that adultery was rampant among certain "leadership," and I thought that's what John was addressing. That along with the "secret teaching" that it's ok, as long as you can "handle" it. Took me a few years to realize that VPW himself started it. Whoa, what a shocker that was. For me, I started questioning if anything I had learned about the bible from him, and his "ministry" was true. Now, here I am 20 years later, still trying to put some of the pieces together. Hopefully, it won't take others that long.

rascal, you said to Johnny: "I think that you are too fine a man to be defending this filth." Excuse me for butting in, but I just don't see where Johnny is "defending" VP. He doesn't have the "I don't care what VP did wrong, he still taught me the word," attitude at all. As far as I can see, he has been very upfront with what he thinks and what his experiences have been. What's up?

Well, at the risk of getting thrown in the doctrinal dungeon...... What about all those wicked kings of Israel? who led Israel into idolatry? and caused them to sin in the worst way possible? Judas? Surely God knew that they would end up pretty badly, too? Just thinking out loud.... I don't think that God needs to do evil, before good can happen. But......how to explain it? Free will? Choice? Men choose evil over good all the time. And innocent people pay for it. I don't think that's God's intention, yet it happens. Oh geeze, Allan. I don't feel like I need a "break." Most folks here are quite kind and considerate, and don't mind the occasional stupid attack. My experience here is that most folks are quick to forgive. I just don't believe in insulting and belittling posters for their feelings and opinions. Argue, yes, sometimes. Get into heated discussions? Most definitely. Truth be told, in the years I've been hanging around the joint, I have felt insulted, unappreciated, belittled at times. But I guess I just decided to get over myself, and realize that MY OPINION is not more RIGHT than anybody elses. Sorry if I sound preachy. I don't mean to lecture you in partcular. I just have a big mouth sometimes.

Aw Johnny, just because somebody disagrees with you on some points, doesn't mean your voice isn't appreciated here. :wub: I love what you contribute, if it makes any difference. I mean that. Goey, I think an interesting point to consider is: What if VPW was "called to the ministry?" I haven't yet decided if I think that or not, the jury is still out for me. But it sure is an interesting point to consider.....Sorta changes the perspective some. I have no problem, personally, with the idea that the Lord Jesus would "call" somebody who is a pretty bad sinner. Seems it's been done a time or two before.

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm the one who misunderstood, BUT, I thought the point Johnny was making was simply that it is possible for men to be "chosen, gifted" whatever you want to call it, and still fail miserably and horribly. I agree with that point. After all, those men in the OT did have the spirit of God upon them. Just because somebody is "born again" doesn't mean that they are automatically sin-free. Ohmigosh! We still have the freedom to chose good or evil. There are scads of verses in the NT that address that very issue. There are countless examples throughout Christian history of men who did great things for the Lord, as well as really horrible things. John Calvin comes to mind.l He had people PUT TO DEATH who disagreed with him, for Pete's sake. "Ministers" fail miserably each and every day. And ususally take alot of good folks down with them. My opinion, but the "black and white" thinking is dangerous. Like I've said before, I think that the more potential a person has for good, the more destruction and havac they can wreak on innocent, God loving people. By the way, word wolf, I agree with your last post as well. VPW, in my opinion, did go looking for free sex and tried to find ways to justify it. And I think it started early in his "ministry." From what I've learned in my counseling classes, people with those serious sexual problems are dysfunctional from adolescence pretty much. Anyway, I am by no means defending VPW and his heinous acts. Just trying to get as true a picture for myself as I can. PS I don't value much of PFAL "doctrine." But I have been a part of other churches, where I thought the "doctrine" was pretty messed up, yet still people managed to experience transformed lives because of Jesus Christ. TWI was not unique in this way, methinks. PFAL was messed up, alot of it, yet people did benefit from the "truth" that was there. Whether it was a little or alot, I guess is a matter of opinion.

Top, yes! You expressed it very well. The phrase " respecter of persons" comes to mind. Bingo! You put another piece of the puzzle together for me.

This is an interesting topic for me. Since I have wondered alot about what the "truth" is concerning such things. I am way more comfortable discussing this subject in "Doctrinal" but whatever. I can walk the edge sometimes! ;) I think you make a fabulous point, Evan, by the way. Honestly, I don't know if I ever "faked" it. What I do know, is that I was on "automatic pilot" much of my time in Way World. When called upon to "manifest" I usually didn't get too excited about it, as I did it all the time. Seeing as how most of my life was spent in meetings. HA! I know now, I hardly ever sit, interpret, prophesy, in front of a group. But when I do, I am usually in the company of the uninitiated (meaning my church friends) so I take it very seriously, and only do so when "inspired."

Belle, for the record, I don't have a hard time with people saying that he was evil through and through. That is/was their experience, opinion, etc. and I respect that. It makes me no difference one way or the other. I'm just trying to reconcile what I EXPERIENCED. And thanks for the kind words.

I agree with that assessment, Belle. To a point. As I have stated elsewhere, I think the picture is much bigger though. And that's what I am interested is seeing. The bigger recipe, (for disaster, ha!) The whole enchilada, and all its ingredients; ro-tel, cheese, meat, and those pesky jalapenos included. ;)

There is no question in my mind that VPW was of questionable moral character. For the record, I am not interested in defending or justifying his life. It ain't my job. But, my opinion, based on my own personal experience of him, and I admit, the personal experience of close family members with him, is that there were times when he wanted to "help" people. I think he did have "moments of clarity" when he did "minister" to people genuinely. They might have been few and far between, but I think they existed. I think he was a man, like I've stated before, had a "gift" and the potential to be far, far greater than he was. So for me, there is a HUGE lesson to be learned, somewhere here. I'm still looking for the bits and pieces of it, I admit. But I think VPW is an example of a tremendous failure. Because he could have done so much for the Lord, but he allowed sin to permeate just about every aspect of his life, and who he was. That's the fascinating point to me. He compromised, big time. And I don't think he is the only "minister" to do so. That's the value, to me, in untangling the knot. And figuring out how someone so talented, (is that the right word? I don't know) could end up devastating so many people. I think the greater one's potential is for doing good, the greater one's potential for wreaking evil can be. If I'm not making sense, please feel free to ignore me.

sprawled out

Sounds like it's gonna be a fun time!! I wish I could be there. But, since I am going to be gone for 3 weeks in May, it is doubtful. Coincidentally, my cousin from KC is going to be visiting me here, that same week-end. So I'm pretty sure, it won't work for me. :(

"some other choice that Oakspear didn't think of" Priceless!

Sure is nice to see you here again, Zix!!! :wub:

For the record, Mark, I agree with you. I just don't think that's all there was to the picture.

Well, I think I'm honest, and I don't agree with Groucho. ;) Even though I think he's a great guy. (Groucho, not VP.) I don't think VP was the master grifter, or the best religious con man around. I think that's giving him too much credit. My opinion, of course, but I don't think that the Way would've had nearly the "success" that it did, unless God and Jesus Christ were in it somewhere. (Of course, the definition of "success" is up for debate, I guess.) Sure they may have been relegated to the back seat, but SOMETHING worked. Not all of it, was BS. I don't think VP was smart/talented enough to build what he did all on his own, and deceive thousands of people. Whatever. I don't feel like arguing with anybody either.