ex10

Simply lovely, Miss Bagpipes. You certainly have a gift for expressing yourself in words. :wub:

What's "South Park?"

PS I can't vote on your poll. Nothing covers my experience. You shoulda put "some of his teachings are right, some are wrong, and it has everything to do with his character."

No oak, it doesn't validate anything. But some people want to find the pearl in the midst of the uh, um, how should I put it tactfully? pig excerement? I think the easy way out is to say the way was pig excrement with nothing worth saving. It takes a little more intensity of thought and character to walk away with something worth keeping. In any situation that stinks like rotten eggs. As always, YMMV.

Yeah, and I hope they know what a treasure he is. :)

Yeah, and I guess it's way..............more.............important............to ...........be..............right..............! I'm sorry but I thought better of you. :wub:

I just want to say, that my still in coworker has been wonderful to work with. He is smart, helpful, considerate, kind. Not to mention, he likes to listen to "classic rock" while we work. :) Gotta love him for that. I liked him very much when I knew him before, and he is still a cool person to be around. It's none of my business, what church he goes to, I've decided. Even if it is my former denomination. :D God bless him, and his family.

OK, wait stop, hold the phone. My name has been mentioned here, so I feel the need to clarify something. I firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life. I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth? I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life.

Well, if prophecy isn't "personal" then what good is it? is my question. Whether it's directed at an individual, or a group of people, what's the point if it doesn't strike a nerve, hit the heart? I think it's another one of those things that TWI tried to put in a box. And it's like anything else, it can be a blessing, or it can be abused.

Well, all I can say is that I too find the pic pretty offensive. For reasons cited above as well. I think it's in pretty poor taste. Somehow, it doesn't seem to me to be the best way to make a point. Proverbs 18:19 comes to mind. But hey, just my opinion.

Well then, I must be totally imagining things, then.

So why on earth would someone want to make something that is "personal" so public, is my question........

What's so offensive about it, JJ? if you don't mind me asking? Personal prophecy, I mean? Yeah, on the other stuff. Sometimes, nobody around gets it, so you are left to your devices as to how to keep on keeping on. Frustrating...........

Ok we are back from our stint at A&M. Ohmigosh! I didn't move any parking cones, (though sorely tempted) and we only snuck past campus security once. And we did get away with it, she says proudly..... We didn't walk on the grass, intentionally, but son and friend did climb a few trees they weren't sposed to. We went to the baseball game, and the midnight yell, and all I can say is: "Whooop!"

Ragradless, Mo, if'n you is a Yankee or not, I don't care. You are still welcome to grace our humble state anytime! And you can bring your saw, too. I got me some youpons in my front yard, that I'm convinced I'd be better off without.

After watching the news, and reading this thread, it occurs to me that at least with hurricances, we usually have lotza notice, and days to prepare. Not so with tornadoes. My poor relatives in TN are ok, but tis scary for them. I been praying too. Lord help all those poor people.....

Good point, JJ. My experience in TWI was that the interpretation of tongues was one of those points of contention. There were people who saw in the Bible that TWI's way of doing it contradicted scripture. However, the way's technique was taught, not anything else. So people were taught error, and "operated" that way. Anybody who argued about it, or tried to change the official way teaching on the subject, was either hushed up, or shown the door. This was true on just about any matter. When it comes to "manifestations" or anything along the lines of what we do with what is "available," (I cringe using that word, sorry, but it's the best way I can think of to put it) we have a choice to make. I believe VPW was correct in saying that we choose whether or not to operate. It's our free will choice. We can do it "correctly," the way God intended, or not. Some churches teach that the spirit of God "possesses" us when we choose to manifest his gift. So the "manifestation" is perfect. I disagree with that belief. The words spoken, go through the filter of our own minds. If I have been taught incorrectly, it will influence my "operation" of the gift or manifestation. This is where sound doctrine comes in, and is so vitally important. I believe that operating the spirit of God does not come "naturally," that it's something that we have to practice and work at, and strive to do the way the Lord intends. It's our free will choice. I think that's pretty evident in the scriptures. As we grow up in Christ, and spiritually mature, we get better and better at whatever our particular gifts and abilities may be. And I do believe that each and every one of us is unique, with individual talents and abilities to offer the body of Christ. I know for a fact, for example, that some people find it easier to speak in tongues than others. Some are better at hearing the voice of God, some bolder at prophecy, etc. But we each have our own individual "calling" if you will. When we are born again, we don't automatically start manifesting the power of God perfectly each and every time. Sure would be nice if we did. But we have to strive to have God's perspcetive, and his love, care, intentions, etc. when we act. I don't know about anybody else, but that's pretty much a daily struggle for me. And we also need to figure out who we are uniquely in His church, and how we each fit into the grander scheme of things. Not always an easy task, unfortunately. By the way, I didn't intend to say that doctrine is not important. I believe it's vitally important. But in and of itself, it's useless. We can have all the "truth" or "right doctrine" in the world, but if we don't act in accordance with it, what good is it? I Cor. 13 comes to mind. As well as the verse, "knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies." I can know an awful lot of "doctrine" but still be a total jerk. I think we all have experienced that in our former group. I am not the most eloquent at explaining how I think about these things, but I hope I'm making sense.

It's been on the radio here for everybody to get their hurricane supplies together. :( I can't stand the thought of having to evacuate again. Can I just come up to your house, Tom?

Does anybody know how to reach Mick Quinn, 12th corps Irish guy?

In my opinion, it isn't that hard to change an interpretation of tongues from the first person to the third person, without changing the "gist" of it. I can say something in the first person, as in telling a story, as an example, and to change it to third person instead, doesn't neccessarily change the essence of it. My opinion, but I think that's what happened often with the interpretation of tongues. I was in church once, and someone spoke in tongues in French, who didn't know it. Now my French isn't fluent by any means, but I was able to get the basic message. Once hubby was at a big meeting with the Way in Chicago. He spoke in tongues and interpretted. Turns out some of the way guys studying Aramaic at the University of Chicago were in attendance, along with some of their fellow students. Maybe even a prof was there, I can't remember. Research Geek was there, too, and I remember talking with him about it on Waydale. After the meeting hubby says all these guys stopped him and started quizzing him about his "tongue." Turns out, according to them, that he had spoken "perfect" Aramaic, pronunciation and gutteral sounds, etc. and the "interpretation" was close to what he had spoken. Husband grew up speaking German, as well as English, so the gutteral sounds and such are second nature to him. Go figure.

Yeah, JJ. Honestly, if I/we (husband, family included) didn't have relationships with the Johns and Mark that have spanned a couple of decades, I don't know if we'd be invovled. John Lynn especially has been a faithful friend for many years. He has had his share of trials and tribulations, but has always offered kind words and encouragement. He has always made time for us, no matter what was going on his life. I appreciate that hand of friendship very much. When my dad was very ill, and close to dying, John took the time to see him and pray with him. That especially was meaningful and comforting to my mom and my family. Those acts of kindness and consideration have much impact, ya know? Tom, you can go to the website, Truth or Tradition.com and do a search. Then you can hear the teaching from the horse's mouth, rather than second hand, from moi. By the time CES started teaching it they way the do now, I had already come to the same conclusion as they did, "coincidentally." So I can't really speak to the question, as I had already "changed my mind" on the whole topic. That same process occurred for me and my husband on many things. As we were learning and changing our minds about many subjects, seems the guys in CES were coming to some of the same conclusions we were, but by different means. We just went to church and started broadening our Christian horizons. I love to read, so started reading tons of books by Chrisitan authors on scads of different topics. And realized that alot of my waybrained way of thinking needed to go. I guess you could say I unrenewed my mind.

We are going up to A&M this afternoon for parent week-end. I wonder what adventures lie in wait? Probably just finding a parking spot on campus will be a miracle......

I guess the biggest thing for me is, that Jesus said we as Chrisitans will be known by our love for one another. Not our almighty doctrine. I had/have alot of trouble with the "gnosticism" that permeated TWI. By that I mean the idea that "right doctrine" ie "knowledge" trumps all. Jesus Christ NEVER put "doctrine" before ministering to people, and giving freely of himself. People were attracted to Jesus because of love, kindness, compassion, wisdom, strength, and other such traits of God's character that he personified. Yeah, doctrine is a factor, but not the only one. At least for me. I hate arguing doctrine with people. What's the freaking point? After all, it's really true, people don't care how much you know, til they know how much you care. Hope this helps.

Belle, I don't know if I can express myself well here, but I will try. I have found the "doctrinal" stuff put out by CES, to be quite a bit different from TWI, especially in attitude and practical application. One of the biggest differences is that TWI promulgated the "health, wealth, prosperity" gospel of 20th century Amercia. Lakewood Church, here in Houston, where Joel Osteen is pastor, is an example of a group that is immersed in this doctrine. CES is far removed from that philosophy of Chrisitanity. Their teachings on suffering and why bad things happen to good people, illustrate that point. As far as the differing doctrines from TWI goes....this can get complicated. There were always problems with certain doctrines of PFAL, which some? many? people were aware of. The speaking in tongues with interpretation, the law of believing, tithing, prophecy, adultery in any situation being sin, personal relationships are a few examples of that. The list can get very long, if I take the time to really sit down and think about it. (But I get tired of going back there, if you know what I mean.) ;) Those of us who were connected with CES from the beginning were very eager to correct the teaching on these subjects. That's what the founders of CES, who were primarily teachers, started out doing immediately. Other things just kinda evolved over time, as people were exposed to the broader Christian world of dogma and doctrine. Just about everybody I know/knew who was associated with CES, at least back in the day, was very dissatisfied with TWI. (And that's the understatement of the century.) So people were very willing to seperate themselves doctrinally from the cult. Does this make sense? :unsure: But I guess the perspective of how different the doctrine is would, in part at least, be influenced by how heavily involved with it (PFAL and its progeny) one was in TWI. Of course, this is only my perspective and experience. Somebody else's mileage may vary. :B)

oh, gee, I didn't expect a sermon.......