ex10

I was so waybrained that I spent years of my life working for free, ie no salary or compensation of any kind, when I could have been advancing in my profession. :(-->

Out in 88 A family member of mine was a Wow sent to Mass. in 86-87. He was also apprentice corps that year, despite the protests of other family members, moi included. According to him, Ralph D. set them straight on what was really going on, and they all decided to "leave the field." Although, my relative stayed there for a few years after that. Small exway world? isn't it. And welcome to the cafe, brewmands9! Glad to hear things are looking up for you.

Yeah Al, And I remember visiting with you at your apt., while J and I were home for the holidays one year, must've been 85? and talking about the conditions at The Way's Prison Camp (Gunnison.) I was still "waybrained" at that point. But what you "shared" I knew was true, even though I didn't want to admit it to myself. So J and I ended up having a conversation with Johnny T (who we thought we could "trust") about it all. We then realized that he was a "company man" and wasn't open to any "negative" feedback about the "ministry." Eye yeye yeye. That was the point we decided to rethink our "involvement" with the way. There is so much more to this story, but I don't want to bore anyone. It gets deep, doesn't it?

Dearest Al, Thanks for sharing. ;)--> It was because of You and others you associated with, that my family had a great "Way Experience," many fond memories included.

Well, thanks, you thinking person you. ;)--> I guess some of us have always had bigger mouths than others. I remember in the mid 90's or so, I think it was after the "sell your house or else" mandate, many more people in our state left TWI. Those of us who had been "out" for awhile, were shocked that anybody was left to leave. Since just about everybody we knew and were close to left in the 80's, I guess we sort of assumed that there wasn't much left of TWI. We went years without really hearing much about TWI and what was happening. It seemed pretty irrelevant to our lives I guess. And then stuff started appearing on the Internet. I remember Trancechat as well, even though I never posted or anything, I would occasionally read. And the rest is history....

George I agree with you about Thanksgiving, even though I don't mind the Christmas music so much. But even that, has to be in smaller doses.

To address what Oakspear said about many people leaving in the late 80's more because of practical error than doctrinal, I've got maybe a little different perspective. While what Oak said is I'm sure probably true for alot of people, there also were doctrinal considerations as well. There were many people, most of whom that I know about were corps grads, who knew there were "doctrinal problems." Some of the biggies were: the "law of believing," "athletes of the spirit," TWI's take on abortion, tithing, the "operation of the 'manifestations,'" the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and of course the biggie, "adultery." When John S. got fired because of his paper saying adultery is wrong, it opened up a huge "doctrinal" can of worms. After that, many of the fired and demoted started talking and comparing notes, and I think it was John L. who started right away with exposing the "doctrinal" error to anybody who would listen. And yeah, the practical error came to light as well, simultaneously. And it took a couple of years to finally "leave." I had dozens of family members involved in TWI, so it wasn't a matter of just me and hubby making our escape. But it turned out ok, with everybody leaving at the same time, (mid to late 80's) more or less. And alot of that was due to John L and Sue P travelling around doing their meetings and exposing the sordid underbelly of the organization as well as the "personal life" of VPW and his "leadership." And rascal, I probably would've been in the same boat as you, if I hadn't known about the "doctrinal problems." It just so happened that I was pregnant for most of 1987. Due to complications, I didn't work and was on bed rest for much of that time. John Lynn sent me a ton of material to read, as well as his book list, and I read it all. Most of it was exposing the doctrinal holes in VP's theology. Talk about "deprograming," sheesh, my brain was thoroughly "reprogramed" after that. Hubby and I tried to alert any and all "believers" we knew about the problems, but unfortunately many called us liars and "pozest." In fact, I still get that same accusation from some to this day. Go figure. --> Sorry for the sidetrack, just another perspective to add to the mix.

It WAS a happening day. Monday morning, all the family, yes teen-agers included, remarked about what a nice week-end we had together. And that is "remarkable" for teen agers, methinks! Thanks for all the colorful and witty birthday wishes. And Rottie, we did watch my favorite Grace Kelly movie. The Hitchcock one with Cary Grant, filmed in Monaco, that I can never remember the name of. (The white halter dress that she wore in that movie is stunning.) ;)--> Dot, the frogs are too cute. Excath, I did miss my dad singing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" to me, as he always did on my birthday. But it was ok, mom came over and brought fried chicken, my favorite forbidden food. And Cowgirl, I did get a box of Belgian chocolates, though not in the shape of Texas, but seashells. Wacky, Krys, shellon, act2, White Dove, Foggy, WW, Linda Z, Matilda, Tom, Oenophile, Rocky, tcat, Kit, Wacky, Tom, Chinson, and Jardinero, and the most eloquent QQ, thank you so much for making my day all the more special. [This message was edited by ex10 on December 09, 2003 at 13:53.]

Long Gone, I agree with you on "Adeste Fideles." Also, the Ave Maria that Andrea Bocelli sings in Italian can't compare with the Latin version. ;)--> Mom mentioned the other day that she would like to attend Midnight Mass this year, even though we belong to a church of a different denomination. I want to take the kids, just because I think they need to experience it at least once, since it was such a big part of our family's Christmas Tradition for so many, many years. It is quite a moving experience. My husband just told me that his favorite Christmas song is Nat King Cole's version of "The Christmas Song." I love to hear him play it on his alto sax. :)--> Several years ago, Bill Moyers did a special that aired at Christmas time on the song "Amazing Grace," that was really touching. There was quite a bit of history in it about John Newton, the composer of the song. I've got the tape around here somewhere. I must dig it out.

Oh geeze, white dove, please don't apologize. I usually don't care one way or another where the conversation might meander. And besides, threads get way too boring without a train wreck or two. ;)--> Not that you did that.

Thanks again, friends. I WAS a really fun day, not just for me, but for my family as well.

Thanks, tippy.

Ok, it's that time of year again, so I figured it's time for our annual Favorite Christmas Music Thread. I have to say that Handel's Messiah is still #1 for me. After that, Andrea Bocceli's Panus Angelicus, and then Celine Dion's Ave Maria. (So I was raised Catholic....) My favorite more contemporary song is Amy Grant's Breath of Heaven. Amazing song. Anyone else?

Thanks for all the cool birthday wishes! I AM having a fun day, putting up the Christmas tree and decking our halls. As of this moment, I am banned from the kitchen/family room area of the house, while my family cooks up something that smells suspiciously like cake. :)--> And what's this? Wrapping paper, tape, scissors all over the floor in front of the computer. I love kid gifts. Birthdays are so cool because they get to be all about appreciating the beloved birthday person. I am truly blessed to have a family that loves me, and friends at greasespot who take the time to say "happy birthday." Thank you all so much!

wow, Steve, I think you pretty much summed it up right there. Socks, You have such a way of putting things...so that they are easy to "get."

Well, thanks for understanding my point, Raf. Please check your privates. Ooops, I mean your private topics.

Wow, I think I'm having flashbacks of the cult.

Geeze, Oldies, I struck a nerve, huh?

Thank you, Evan. Ok Oldies, I got the point that you're offended. When you're all through being offended, do you mind answering the questions?

Oldies I think you have missed my point entirely. Speaking of missing points, what is yours exactly? other than I'm "arrogant", "disparaging," "disdainful," "disrespectful?" Are you saying that because Christ suffered, we don't ever have to suffer? Is that what you think the message of the cross is? I don't want to assume anything here. Please elucidate.

Socks That was so beautifully put! The "way of the cross" is the way of humility, obedience, submission, and yes, suffering. (Insert I Peter here.) Not arrogance and disdain, and "continuing in sin." Instead of looking at the message of the cross as the one of power to overcome sin, (by repentance) it became the reason why we could sin and get away with it. "Christ suffered so I don't have to" was a kind of mantra to many of us. WRONG. I'm afraid many of us (myself included) missed the whole point entirely. And then became "stunted in our growth" as Christians, always looking for the blessings of the "more abundant life." As I said before, VP's theology was full of holes, and glaring inconsistencies. Man's basic spiritual problem is not "the intergrity of the Word," but sin. VP didn't want to admit that, and I think it's fairly obvious why. The message of the cross deals with the sin problem, but then it's up to us to live according to it. But we were offered "shortcuts," ie. "just believe," "just renew your mind to your righteousness," etc. This stuff gets deep. But in untangling the web of what's true and what's false, ie. "discerning truth from error," I think we can't be afraid to look at all these things. I still think, more than ever that TWI's disdain for the cross as a symbol was indicative of disdain for its message, and the preaching of that message. And contempt was the "fruit."

Thank you, Oldies, for so wonderfully illustrating my point. ;)-->

OK, here's something to throw into the mix. I think the disdain for the cross that permeated VPW's theology, was born out of a sort of cognitive dissonance VP experienced. I don't think it was about "fleeing from idolatry" at all. But more about not being confronted with the price of sin. I think the "preaching of the cross" was ignored, or conspicuously absent, because of VP's own failure to deal with sin in his own life. He tried to take a shortcut to the "more abundant life." And found bible teachings from other teachers that backed up his, "let's not deal with the problem of sin" philosophy. And enabled him to feel better about his hypocrisy. He wove them into a "body of teaching" with some glaring inconsistancies. Hey, this is only my opinion, and my 20/20 hindsight. If somebody wants to call it "evil surmisings," so be it. I'm just trying to make sense out of something that hasn't made sense to me for decades.

((((Tilda)))) I wish you the happiest of days! I also wish that we could celebrate our birthdays together over of a couple of really good marguaritas. Cheers dahling. And many happy reruns, as my son likes to say.

Incisive comment, Yana.