ex10

oh yeah, my skinny teen-aged daughters requested a veggie tray to absorb all the fat they'll be eating. :D--> Cathy, should I fill the hot tub??

Yes, in true red, white, and blue American tradition, we are having a Super Bowl Party. Funny thing is, my family will be the only Americans at the party. Everybody else will be Brits. (I didn't plan it that way exactly, just how it turned out. Long story. --> ) But, anyway, I thought it would be a great opportunity to show off the finest in Amercian cuisine, so we are smoking a pork shoulder, and are gonna have real true, bona-fide barbeque. (Memphis style, that is.) We'll pull the meat after it's done smoking and serve it with mustard slaw, beans, and possibly some chips thrown in for good measure. And of course, plenty of Coors and Corona with lime, the beers of choice in our crowd. For appetizers, I'm gonna serve some stuffed jalapenos and of course, hot wings. So what is on your menu for Sunday???? Inquiring minds want to know. [This message was edited by ex10 on January 24, 2003 at 22:13.]

Steve! What about Uno's Pizza? How do you think it rates? I know people who think Giordano's is the best pizza, but I wasn't too impressed.

Thank you, Long Gone. I get it. I agree, it isn't that hard. :)--> even for us Texans. :D-->

I've been thinking about this discussion alot lately, and really, IMHO either perspective works in the bigger picture of things. Whether the Pharisees thought Jesus was "conceived in sin" or not, the main idea is still the same. They were being really nasty. The only reason it even matters to us exwayfers is trying to prove VPW right or wrong. Sheesh. Even if the whole teaching from PFAL isn't an "actual error," at least the point has been made that there could be other explanations for the record in John 8. Raf, I think I finally understand the difficulty in deciphering all this stuff. ;)--> Holy smokes!

Goey In the NIV John 8:41 reads: "We are not illigitimate children," they protested. The only Father we had is God himself." I think the NIV translation is easier to understand than the KJV. Jesus was saying that he was the Son of the Father. He claimed to be speaking on his father's behalf. He was accusing the Pharisees of "belonging to your father, the devil...." vs.44. They were saying that they were the pure line of Abraham, which equated them with being the children of God. They were simply protesting the truth of Jesus' words to them. And I think, trying to discredit him and the same time because as I mentioned before in verse 48 they accused him of being a Samaritian. The Jews despised the Samaritans because they considered them half-breeds, NOT the children of Abraham like they were. It seems really simple to me. I don't think they were referring to Jesus' actual parents at all. There's just no evidence to support that they were, especially reading the context. The whole argument was about who was from God and who wasn't.

ooops. [This message was edited by ex10 on January 20, 2003 at 11:14.]

Sorry, triple post. [This message was edited by ex10 on January 20, 2003 at 11:13.]

Goey I did read your post. I'm simply offering another perspective, which I thought I made clear was just my speculation. And to answer your question, I am not implying that Mary would hide her pregnancy due to shame. I'm just saying that this was a unique circumstance, that had never occurred before. If Joseph was anything like my husband, I think he would definitely be into protecting his wife, her honor and reputation, especially since she was carrying the long awaited for Messiah. The wise thing to do in this instance, might be to just keep quiet about it. That's all I'm saying. After all, Herod was the king, he had a bad rep for being brutal and ruthless, and when he found out from the Magi that the messiah had been born, he didn't seem to waste any time trying to murder him. Sheesh, all through the OT the devil was trying to annihilate the Christ line. I would definitely say that Mary and Joseph needed to be very wise in this situation. I've been pregnant quite a few times in my life. And yeah, a couple of those pregnancies were quite a surprise. :)--> Even if Mary wasn't a Texan, she was a female. I think I can relate on that level. Any normal female who is about to give birth, especially to a first child when you really don't know what to expect, is vitally concerned with preparing for the birth. It's an obsession almost. I just can't see planning a trip, on foot no less (OK she's riding a donkey in all the pictures, that's even worse than walking I'd say. ;)--> ) I don't know enough about the espousal/marriage thing to answer your question about that. Maybe I'll have time do some reading on it, maybe not. But I feel pretty confident that I have a little understanding of the subject we're talking about. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm simply offering a scenario that may or may not make sense. If it doesn't to you, ok. I'm not trying to challenge you or anything, just voicing my opinion. [This message was edited by ex10 on January 19, 2003 at 23:08.]

Goey One thing that I've thought about is that no one neccessarily had to know about Mary's pregnancy, other than Joseph. And I'm pretty certain it's not something that would be announced to the neighbors or whoever. Suppose Joseph just kept it to himself, and they went through the marriage (coming together) ceremony as planned, just didn't consummate the marriage. I'm thinking Joseph might've even found out on their honeymoon night. In those days, long, loose flowing clothing was the norm. Even today, it's not that hard to hide a pregnancy if you really want to, especially with a first baby. Joseph and Mary evidently left for Bethlehem to do their required thing for the census shortly before Mary's due date. Why? Surely there was a sufficient time frame involved, and they didn't HAVE to go right when they did. (Shoot, even we've got til April 15th to pay our taxes for the previous year.) Nobody I know plans a difficult trip when they're about to give birth. It's much easier to travel with a newborn than it is being "great with child." Trust me on this. ;)--> Could it be that Joseph and Mary purposely planned their obliged trip to Bethlehem when they did so Mary wouldn't be home when the baby was born? Even nowadays, people hide pregnancies and then leave town to give birth so the neighbors won't know. Another intriguing thing to me is the fact that the couple stayed in Bethlehem and didn't return immediately to Nazareth. I think that's pretty clear from the record. (The Magi finding a young child in a house.) In Matthew 2:19ff, it's clear that they settled in Nazareth again after leaving Egypt upon Herod's death. As I mentioned before, years could have passed from the time Joseph and Mary left for Bethlehem and then finally made it back to Nazareth. Who knows, they could even have had another child/children by then. Would anyone really be the wiser about the circumstances of Jesus birth? LongGone made a good point that Joseph didn't divorce her, so perhaps everyone assumed all was well. I'm telling ya, if the things that happened to Mary and Joseph happened to me, I would most definitely keep it to myself. This is just one scenario I know, and I'm definitely filling in the blanks, but so far it makes the most sense to me. Thanks for your insight. It's really been enjoyable for me reading everybody elses thoughts on the subject.

Grizz Check out Deuteronomy chapter 22. :)--> The practice you're referring to isn't mentioned in the gospels.

Thank you, LongGone for your insight. Some of the points you made, I had thought of already. It's funny how tradition and previous teaching can really color my objectivity in reading what's written. That's why discussions like these are so much fun. Raf, I think that there is much evidence to contradict VPW's assumptions regarding this particular topic. In fact, I think he was very clearly wrong. So my vote is for "actual error."

At the risk of getting sidetracked here.....I'm still thinking about the discussion about whether or not Jesus was considered "illegitimate" by family and friends or whoever. I don't think the circumstances of his birth were as obvious as Grizz and Raf seem to think. Some of the reasons being.....Mary didn't spend her entire pregnancy in Nazareth. She went to visit her cousin Elizabeth, and then she and Joseph left town to go to Bethlehem before Jesus was born. Why take a difficult trip like that being "great with child?" Why did Mary and Joseph go when they did? Could it have been for "rumour control?" (The trip from Nazareth to Bethlehem was difficult enough in a tour bus, I can't imagine walking it being really pregnant. :)--> ) Also, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem, I think they stayed there for a while (the Magi did see a young child living in a house) and then the family took off for Egypt and stayed there a while til Herod died. By the time they got back to Nazareth to settle down, it could've been years since Jesus' birth. Would anyone there have kept that close tabs on what was happening with Mary and Joseph? In John 7:2-5 is an interesting fact. Even Jesus' brothers didn't believe in him. Did they know the miraculous circumstances of his birth? or not? Maybe they thought he was simply their big brother? Also John 7:41-43 are interesting verses in light of this question. Evidently, the circumstnces of Jesus birth were not that well known. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. These are simply things I've been wondering about since they came up in my bible study as we've been discussing John. Carry on.... :)-->

Vert I personally think they (the Pharisees) were doing both. They were defending themselves as well as accusing Jesus. In John 8:48, they called him both a Samaritan and demon-possessed. To add to what LongGone said: The Samaritans were the ones who were the offspring of "spriritual fornication" ie the result of Jews intermarrying with pagans.

I guess I should add that the Jews thought the Samaritans were the scum of the earth. By spreading the word that Jesus was a Samaritan, they could obfuscate his claim to be the messiah. In the Jewish mind, it would be impossible for the messiah to be a Samaritan. If you read John through chapter 8 in the NIV, rather than the King James it's easier to understand without waybrain, I think.

Pardon me for butting in here, but we just covered John 8 in my bible study. My thoughts on verse 41 are this: The Pharisees, a couple of times in John, accused Jesus of being a "Samaritan" to discredit him. The Samaritans were the ones that the Jews believed to be "born of fornication." I personally don't think that verse 41 is referring to the fact that they thought Jesus was illegitimate because of the circumstances of his birth, but that they were telling everyone he was a Samaritan. They were simply flaunting their pedigree and accusing Jesus of not being as learned and purebred as they were. Context is everything. ;)--> the Pharisees by this point were doing everything they could to set Jesus up. They wanted him dead, and in fact, had already tried to kill him by this time. Of course, this is MHO from studying John this year, and I could be wrong. I haven't consulted any commentaries or anything to see what others think. This is just off the top of my head. peace, love, dove.

Hey ya'll. I was talking to J about some of the things discussed on this thread and he had some interesting insight as to the music scene at Emporia when we were there. He says that the musicians were more or less assigned to different bands or Way Prod groups. The better/more experienced musicians were never all put together in one band. It was as if the powers that ruled didn't want any one band to be too good. So the novices were always placed with the more experienced, and if anybody knew too much about what they were doing, it wasn't neccessarily considered an asset. Those musicians had to be kept humble ya know. I just thought it was an interesting insight. ;)--> Keynote, J says you were a most excellent trombone player and wonders if you still play that instrument? I asked J a little about the history of the Orchestra, and he doesn't remember too much, expcept that Ken McC started it. Does anyone remember what year it came to be or any of that? I was just curious. There were so many excellent, talented musicians in our corps era. I can't help but wonder who's still playing, made a career out of their music, etc. and if their Way Prod experience helped or what.

PS Buck, I grew up in Memphis, got witnessed to by WOWs when I was in high school. But I really got involved in the way while at college at UT Knoxville. My 10th corps sister-in-law (Brenda) is from OK City and knew your wife there. She says hi.

Wow, Buck, all this Oregon history is interesting to me as well. And like you, I haven't thought much about it for the past 2 decades til running into Daggs again. From your description of the apartment complex, I don't know if it was the exact same place or not. I remember the pizza place although since most of my WOW team couldn't drink legally, we didn't do much beer drinking, there anyway. ;)--> There was no Myrtle, but another nice lady who was the manager. But I do remember Blair A and some of the civilian believers coming over for dinner and mentioned that someone else had run a twig in the same apts. So I'm assuming that would've been you. My other WOW family lived in an apartment complex closer to Steve! at 82nd and Division, across the street from a Burger King? I think with a big parking lot that the teens (us included) used to hang out at. I've always wanted to go back to Portland for a vacation and really see the city, since we didn't really get to as WOWs. Daggs will remember that we pretty much had to stick to our assigned area of the city. Do you remember the Mt. Hood Cafe, Buck? A great place for breakfast on Sat. mornings. It was just down the street from our apartment complex too. Our apt. was 2 story, so when you came in the front door, there was a staircase that went upstairs where we had 2 bedrooms and a bath. Seems like our apt was in the back of the complex. Division St. was right outside our back door. Anyway, I think it's kinda cool that we lived in the same neighborhood anyway, if not the same apts. Daggs and her crew lived all the way across town. And Daggs, I remember Stacy putting the kabash on your camp out. She did the same thing to us, when we planned a tubing adventure. The tubing spot was about 15 minutes from our front door, but out of our designated territory. As I recall, the guys went anyway and we just didn't tell. Sheesh, she wouldn't even let us go to the zoo. Had I been a little older and wiser, I think we would've just done what we pleased more. Then again maybe not, as I did want to graduate from the way corps. :D--> I never knew you lived in OR, Buck. I actually requested to go there for my interim yr. I had always wanted to see the place. Plus, it was the farthest "Oureach City" from Wayworld. :D--> My only regret is that I didn't get to see more of the West Coast while there. Buck, where were you on your interim yr.?

Geeze, Buck. I just read your post and you'll never believe this, but my WOW family also lived in SE Portland at 129th and Division. We lived in that townhome apartment complex right on Division Street. I can't remember the name of it. After we had been there a couple of months, we found out that someone had lived there previously and run a twig. Could that have been you???? Wouldn't it be wierd if we lived in the same apartment??? I remember having the coolest view from my bedroom. Mt. Hood out one window, and Mt. St. Helens out the other. Wow, what a small exway world it is, huh? Daggs, Blair A was the branch coordinator for the civilian believers in Portland, and a heck of a great guy as well. Steve! I thought I remembered drinking champagne at the wedding. It was a good time, despite the low budget. :)-->

Oh and AlaP, I can totally relate to the "orchestra widow" thing. But by some stoke of good fortune, my corps assignment for corps week and ROA was back stage main tent. I usually ended up working in the Tech Crew Tent, which eventually evolved into the "Orchestra Tent." So at least J and I got to hang out together during the teachings and stuff during the Rock. Did Keynote play in the Dance Band? That's the time I was wishing J and I could dance. He's actually a pretty good dancer. ;)--> After we got out of TWI, J was in another cool band, and worked as a band director. That's when I really found out what the "band widow" life was about. Sigh....As of about a year ago, he's not playing or teaching or anything and just today he mentioned how he misses his music, especially playing. So I have a feeling he's gonna get involved with another band here soon. And that's a good thing, since he seems to be much happier when he's performing on at least a semi-regular basis. ;)--> Buck, I actually have talked J into playing the harmonica on occasion. He sounds pretty good to me, but since he can't play like Stevie Wonder, he thinks he can't play. --> Sheesh, I can't even get a sound to come out of his flute. If I could, I think I'd claim to be able to play, a little anyway. :)-->

Daggs I think the baby ruth in the pool is one of the funniest stories from that year. And the way Sue B told it! Stacy all big and pregnant in her frog green bathing suit, swim cap, goggles and all...swimming along and seeing something floating in her lane up ahead. A cruel trick to play on a pregnant lady! LOL. The ride back from OR in Chris' van and then what was it? a couple of days or so lounging around at his mom's house felt like a much needed vacation before Corps Week and another year of Way Corps drudgery. :)--> Although I thought our last yr at Emporia was like Club Med compared to the Reign of King Richard and the Queen Linda. Geeze, those two argued the entire year. Anyhow, Buck, J says that the female vocalist you mentioned had the annoying habit of thinking she was a prima donna of some sort. Your incident with her was only one among many that made him (and everybody else in the band including her husband) roll his eyes. He wonders if she ever got over herself? ;)--> Daggs, did you go to Blair A's wedding? Steve! was the best man-in-charge I believe. The politics in OR were quite an interesting story, one which I never heard the other side of til Steve S (branch leader in Eugene) told me years later. Seems he and our dear Stacy didn't exactly see eye to eye most of the time. Surprise, surprise. I hope our beloved Jan and Chris are doing well in spite of being still stuck in. I'll never figure that one out. :(--> When I was seeing Chirs' mom when pg with our 2nd child, (this was in 89) we had pretty much left TWI, but were not officially dropped corps yet. Wow, that's another long story.....Dr. R was so incredibly good to us, and a fantastic doctor as well. But I'm rambling.....There were so many good folks in TWI. It's really a shame how things have ended up. :(--> Daggs, I'm quite sure if we'd still be hanging out if we lived remotely near each other. I well remember having to get our money together. That's another story maybe I'll tell sometime. Buck, from your recollections, I'm really sorry we didn't know each other a little better. Seems you were where the action was. :D--> I love your stories.

This thread is too fun! J came home from work in a grouchy mood. (His assessment, not mine. :)--> ) I had him read this thread and he actually laffed out loud recalling Buck's harmonica incident. (He remembers it well, and might actually be inspired to post here. Geeeze, miracle of miracles. I've been hanging around Waydale and Gs for like, 3 years and he's never taken too much interest til this thread.) Anyhow, Keynote and ala, he remembers you both fondly and wonders if ypur kids have red hair? :)--> One of ours is a redhead. Daggs, congrats on your upcoming wedding news, and we would've eloped if we coulda!!!! Sounds like a grand plan to me! (Although I totally understand the wanting to be there thing that your friends have going on.) Ala inspired me to look up J's orchestra picture, and lo and behold! I found a pictures of you and me, Daggs, along with the rest of my Waydaze pics (all 6 of them) All I can say is, WE WERE DEFINITELY BABES! Jan wasn't in the picture, and if I recall correctly, she took it. So glad to hear ya'll are in touch. Tell her "hey" from me n J. Steve! probably remembers Jan as well. Which reminds me, Steve! do you know whatever became of Stacy and Alan? Anyhoo, Oakspear mentioned some names of our beloved bethern in the corps. The only one I knew well was Kevin S, as we had many hitchhicking adventures together. Geeze, the stories that come to mind....... Daggs, did you drive from Portland back to corps week with Chris and Jan in that old white van Chris had? I remember we rented that pop-up together....I guess I should consult my diary, if I can find it. What fun reminiscing can be!

Ah, Z, I too am so sorry I missed your special day. I hope it was the best! Many hugs, ex10

LOL, Daggs!!! I never knew about the "reassignment" thing. Too funny. I guess I sorta reassigned myself as well our last yr. Craiggy told me I was gonna be at HQ for the next block (after lightbearers) I decided I didn't want to go, told PL who called Craiggy and said I was gonna stay at Emporia instead. He yelled, she yelled, I cried and stayed at Emporia. Thank God. Anyway, I can vouch for Daggs propensity for trouble and her quick wit which saved me from taking things way too seriously. I was right there hiding under the radar as well. My motto our last yr in was: "Lay low and graduate." Ala, I'll try emailing you again. I know who you and hubby are, but you probably are still guessing who I am. Here's a hint: My hubby also played in the orchestra. His major instrument(s) were sax (all of them) but he also played the flute, clarinet, and bassoon. We got married in the 10th corps wedding. Daggs, I hope all is well with you and yours. Love, T.