ex10

I think in order to really get the "bigger picture," one has to step back and look at the body of VPW's teachings as a whole. I think it's really odd that in the book "Power For Abundang Living" there is virtually no mention of the cross, and its importance as the foundational doctrine of Christianity. Yeah, the crucifixtion is mentioned, in the chapter on narrative development, to show how the traditional view of events is somehow "not right." But take a look at VP's views on such things as repentance, righteousness, suffering (that's a biggie) the problem of sin and how to overcome it, renewing the mind, the "mystery," the "absent Christ," true worship, and many others. There is a gaping hole left in virtually all these teachings, in my mind anyway, that could have only been filled by the "preaching of the cross." I think Danny hit the nail on the head, when he said: "Who needs the cross when you can just Believe." My opinion. "Your mileage may vary," as my friend Alfakat likes to say. ;)-->

Oldies, You have your opinion, I have mine. I believe that the arrogance and the false teachings of VP, bred out and out contempt for the cross of Christ. Have a nice Thanksgiving.

Oldies, And your point might be?

OK Here are some of my favorites. Sorry I can get them to line up beside each other instead of in a column.

I was too little to remember much as well. But I do remember being at my grandparents house, and everyone was gathered around the tv when Oswald got shot. Grandpa was a policeman and was very animated when it happened. That's about all I remember.

Why thankee, Danny, but all I did was kinda restate what Kit Sober wrote in her very insightful first few posts on this thread. ;)--> I've thought about this whole subject for a long time. A few years back, my husband and I travelled to Israel and joined the hosts of Chrisitan pilgrims who have ventured there over the centuries. We walked the Via Della Rosa. It was a very moving experience for me, which surprised me. It left an impression on me which I guess I never really fully articulated until recently. After we walked through the Arab quarter of Jerusalem, retracing Jesus' steps, I bought a beautiful gold cross, embedded with tiny rubies and white sapphires. It was very special to me, and I wore it often after that. Last June, when my best friend who I'd met at my bible study years earlier told me she was moving overseas, I wanted to give her something precious to me that she would enjoy and appreciate. A couple of weeks before she left, we were in our bible study, (a study on the book of John) wrapping it up for the year, and she shared how she finally understood (after years as a Christian) that Jesus went to the cross for her personally. It was a very moving sharing and didn't leave a dry eye in the place. (There were about 400 women there.) Then I knew what I could give her as a parting gift, that would remind her of our friendship. Of course we both cried when I gave it to her the night before we took her and family to the airport. Her not-yet-a-Chrisitan husband sat there mystified, not understanding the preciousness of that tiny cross. But it's a moment that neither she nor I will ever forget, and one that bonded us together probably for life. It's funny how powerful that symbol can be for us, isn't it?

Wow you guys, excellent points! It's the message of the cross, where the power of Chrisitanity lies. Danny and Darrell, you guys are so right in your insights about the "missing link" in the teachings of VP and company, which I thought was the whole point of Kit's original post that started this whole discussion. It's in the cross where the power of transformation lies. It's the cross of Jesus Christ that confronts us with our own sin and what we will do with it, as Darrell said. VP's gospel of "power for abundant living" was rendered "powerless" because of his refusal to asknowledge the message of the cross. After all, that message is "negative." It involves suffering, which was not allowed in the life of a "believing believer." Being "sin conscious" was in itself a "sin" according to VP. Not the beginning of transformation, and the road to purity and holiness. My own personal opinion, is that when VP removed the cross from all the phsysical locations of TWI, he also removed the cross, from his message. Thus allowing the proliferation of sin in his "ministry." Sheesh, this stuff gets really deep, doesn't it? But then I guess purging waybrain has always been a rather messy endeavor. At least for me. [This message was edited by ex10 on November 23, 2003 at 11:22.]

Tom I just thought a couple of your comments sounded a wee bit condescending. And in response to a comment I made: Was this not attitude? Did I misunderstand you? How do you explain II Corinthians 7:8-11? the key verse being verse 10: "Godly sorrow (over sin) brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret..."? [This message was edited by ex10 on November 22, 2003 at 21:37.]

sisex Feeling a little grouchy, eh? I am too. ;)-->

Geeze, Tom I wasn't challenging you. What's up with the attitude?

Tom I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy..." Isn't it true that it's in our brokenness that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour enter in? I think I understand perfectly what Kit is saying. To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were. It's the understanding the price of sin that drives us to enter into the holiness of the Almighty, as Kit mentioned. Yeah, sin is pretty ugly. But we can't be afraid to look at it, and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus.." After all, it's the horror of our own sin, and our helplessness to do anything about it, that enables us to reach out for the Loving arms of our Saviour, and to be embraced and surrounded by Him and His love. I love what Kit quoted from Oswald Chambers because it drives my mind to consider Jesus from many different angles. I want to delve deeper in my relationship with him, and the perspective of someone else can help me do that at times. I'm always amazed at how quickly we exwayfers can dismiss provocative words from other Chrisitans of proven Christlike character.

Excellent points, Kit and Alfa. What comes to mind for me is that when Jesus was about to face "the cross" ie. his upcoming suffering and death, he shared a meal with those closest to him, asking them to "do this in remembrance of me." Seems to me that he didn't want us his followers to forget or downplay the events that were unfolding as he spoke?

Yeah, alfa, I know what you mean. And I have thought about this whole subject (which is the neverending story in alot of ways) very much. While many of us thought that VP was a great teacher of "the Word," really what he was teaching was his own interpretation of that "Word." After all, in PFAL he set himself up as the great "researcher," then he built himself an empire which included a "research department" to led an air of credibility to himself and his "minstry." Then he starts a "leadership training program," which had a modicum of success, by virtue of the sheer numbers of people attracted. In another thread, I think Kit Sober hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the de-emphasis by VPW on the cross of Christ and all that means to MOST Christians. And then, couple that fact with the "absent Christ doctrine," and the emphasis, not on Jesus Christ as our example, and the character of Christ being formed in each Christian believer, but on "men of God" (with all their shortcomings and tragic flaws) in the bible, and "the Word" (according to VPW). Then add a BIG emphasis on the "gift of holy spirit," and how that enables fallen sinners to become God's superheroes, and voila! a cult is born. I don't think many of the "teachings" of VPW were that overtly evil or unsound on the surface, (ok there are exceptions) but weave them all together, and one gets a pretty twisted picture of Christianity. Of course this is a pretty simplistic view in a lot of ways, but somehow it works for me.

alfa You are so right when you mentioned the duplicity of the teachings of VP. To the "uninititated," so much of the "teaching" sounded so good, yet there was an underlying meaning to it, that many of us just weren't aware of, and didn't get. I think TWI was duplicitous right from the start, considering VP's history.

I was out WOW that year too. I remember it like it happened yesterday. Roy, that's a really good idea.

Yeah, Evan, I think I heard that too. :(--> but am not sure.

anyone?

Anyone?

anybody know about Paul and Terri?

Chins Happy, happy day to you! Whatcha gonna do?

Brother alfakat Please check private topic... ;)-->

White Dove Trust me, Steve will remember. ;)-->

Geeze, Microbe, we were posting at the same time. Yeah, I personally was pretty embarrassed about the lack of hospitality Mr. Leonard experienced at the Rock. In fact, when I asked about him the day after eating lunch with him, I was told he had gone home. I thought it was pretty shoddy treatment....and when I investigated found out that the craigmonster was not happy...

Still the Word, If you really want answers, one person to talk to is Steve Sann. I know Steve was in touch with Mr. Leonard when he (Steve) was Region Coordiantor in Montana in the mid 80's. I also know John Schoenheit took Mr. Leonard's class on gifts of the spirit shortly after getting fired from TWI. He knows stuff too. Are you writing a book or something? ;)-->

PS Evan, check private topic.