FullCircle

I took the CFS class 1977. I dont' have a photographic memory but I don't remember (and I took it several times after that and into the '80s) the swipe and the eating of....*gross* I don't doubt it was in there and the class could have been modified after you saw it. It wouldn't be the first time TWI did that as I remember specifically and plainly that the PFAL book and the RHST book that I got early Jan 1976 said that soul life started when sperm fertilized the egg, that was taught in conjunction to the conception of Jesus Christ. It was a question on the home study lessons we had to do, send it to be marked and get a completed card from our instructor sent to HQ to be filed as it was a requirement for the Advanced Class. I don't remember that much time spent on homosexuality either, but that is where I had to have learned it all. I remember that the original sin was masturbation. As someone else mentioned I remember seeing pics of different shapes of penises, bottle shaped stands out to me, pics of different shaped breasts and VP standing with a pointer pointing to them, declaring how beautiful they were to the point it was a general whispered consesus that VP was a breast man, a picture of a woman masturbating nakee using the edge of her bed, a couple in 'after glow' and the wrangling how the original sin was not truly a sin nowadays and the body is the body and parts is parts, and how we should not have any more embarrassement towards our private parts then we would our ears. Then there was the question answer period that left us mostly in the dark and free to interpret the answers or non answers given by VP to the young adults on the film about is having sex okay? But you are right, it was early early TWI that it was believed that homosexuals were possesed. I got involved in 1975, it was shared then and another female that I became best of friends, who has since passed away, got involved much earlier with TWI then I did. She had a brother who was homosexual and some darling of a TWI believer got in her face and told her that her brother was possessed. My friend flipped out with news like that, when she was new to the ministry and the believer who dropped the bomb shell got reamed. So maybe the only difference between then and now was or is, today it is okay to go for someone's jugular like that while way back when, they actually cared how their doctrine was shared with others so that people would not get hurt.

I am very interested in hearing how the women in the OT played prominent parts in the structure and formation of the history of people then. I do not believe the OT to be God breathed but rather a written narrative of people in a very patriarchal society looking to live their lives in the way they felt would please their God. As an aside on some of the conversations here, cultures the world over outside of the territory of where the OT and NT were written, mostly had female and male gods that were sympathetic to their culture. Makes sense, doesn't it? The female was represented by the moon, the moon taking roughly 28 days to complete her cycle to fullness as the male was represented by the sun, 24 hours to complete his cycle of reproduction. Earth was the mother as well, giving birth and sustaining the life on it. There were many saviours who died and came back to life. Some argue that this was the devil copying what was promised in Genesis about the seed warring seed, but that cannot be true as the Bible clearly states what was secret was secret, no one knew until Paul got the revelation and Corinthians states that if the God of this world knew... Mithra, an early Persian god has many similiarities to Jesus. But anyway, there is a book to read that I feel is to be considered in discussing the One God, monotheism type of worship and it's origins. The book is called, Custodians of Truth, The contiunaunce of Rex Deus by Tim Wallace-Murphy and Marilyn Hopkins. It talks about the identification of Moses. Monotheism was first introduced in Epyptian by the Pharaoh Akenhaten and it went over as well as a lead balloon. It cites Sigmun Freud adn his final work, "Moses and Monotheism" and how Moses' origins told in the OT was based upon the mythology of Sargon (2800 B.C.E.) and then the stories of the birth of Horus (an Egyptian god) who were both hidden in a reed bed. The Assyrian king list calls him "Sargon the Assyrian", son of Ikunum, and reckons him as one of their empire's founders. A Neo-Assyrian text (7th century BC) describes his birth and his early childhood: “ My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and […] years I exercised kingship.[4] ” As Sargon's early life as castaway river baby predates the early story of biblical Moses, a theory of reflected story lines is possible.[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad Anyway, this book proposes that Moses, was none other than Pharaoh Akenhaten who left Egypt with a crowd to go elsewhere to establish the one god, monotheism way of worship. There is much evidence presented in the book and I think it's a worthwhile read. It explains one way of how the ONE god and only ONE god way of worship evolved in a land and world that had many gods. Also, it has been noted that there are similarities between Egyptian hymns to their gods and some of the psalms. http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html

tried to edit but couldn't so I did a another post below

I am going to look for that Plum Silky shampoo today and give her a good bath because the gentle hypoallergenic shampoo didn't do the trick yesterday. But you're right Belle about her stinking when she is wet, and since she is part golden retriver, her hair is longer and I have to make sure I wet her down to then skin, getting past all the water repellent hair (so it seems) to wash her otherwise she stinks to high heaven. Hehe, after a bath, her hair is sticking up all over from me trying to get under it to wash it, she's a sight and my cat hates it when my dog gets a bath, I guess he doesn't recognize the smell or something and has attacked my poor big doggie because of it. Sounded like WW3 or someone was getting killed between the itty bitty cat attacking the big big dog, barking and howling and screaming, well the screaming was us, trying to get them to break it up before one of them got hurt. Normally the cat adores my dog, and tries to snuggle to sleep with her and they play together, but not after a bath, then it is a whole different ball game, so we keep them separated until the doggie is completely dry.

Aww thanks, ex-cathedra. That loss stung for awhile, the bible was replaceable, everything else wasn't.

Da fish stinks at da head. I've been waiting to say that.

There were also the uses (any one remember the debate of whether to say use or usage of the word?) of spirit as in devil, holy, God, life of man As I left TWI, we also moved out of town. Our van was packed and my companion bible was in a box near the door for easy access. My diary with the deathnotice of a parent and their very last letter to me was in it, pictures of my child's first birthday and other meaningful to me stuff like that. It was stolen out of the van. So I started over with buying a fresh clean NIV study bible.

Thank you for responding. She is a golden lab, Idon't know if she is from a breed that hunts but she sure is good with her nose and picking up scents, I've watched her trail the backyard with her nose to the ground tracing whatever had been there. For eight years now she has made a bee line out the backdoor to catch one of those squirrels that live in the tree out back but they have out run her to the safety of the tree every time although she has come close to getting them. She also does the old instinctual looking for food in the snow, a fixed habit patten that wolves do in the winter, put their noses in the snow and run it along looking for whatever rodent is under there. She does that and I call it her snow plow immitation.

I have two questions, and one sub question to a question. Why do dogs roll in the mud and poop? The subquestion is why do it when I am so busy that I have to drop everything and give the dog a bath? Which is not easy, getting an 85lb dog up and into a clawfoot bath tub which is high. Why does my dog howl when the firewhistles go off? Oh, firewhistles? When there is a fire or emergency here in town, which is all volunteer firemen, they sound a siren to call them to the fire house. My dog howls at that siren. Why? Is it hurting her ears?

And it is okay to admit that we just don't know, that we don't have all the answers all the time. The world won't come to an end if we don't know. For some reason when I came out of TWI, speaking for myself here, I felt I had to KNOW everything now. I had to have all the answers, which doctrine was right, soul sleep or not, JC is not God or what, tithing, speaking in tougnes what was the right doctrine? I felt at least for the first year or so that I was worse off than before I got into TWI because even then I didn't know, but it was worse thinking I did know then to find out it may have been all wrong. I learned to live without knowing everything about everything concerning these issues and I learned answers took time and I learned it was a search and a work in progress and to have patience and as long as I did, the answers I wanted would come. And they did. I evolved. I expanded where I looked and read and studied. I pondered and sifted and discussed and came to my own conclusions. The world didn't end while in that process and I am still in that process of learning and growing and building. It really is okay to start over with a blank slate.

good thing LCM and TWI aren't ancient greeks, I would hate to see the spin they would put on Pandora and her box. ooops sorry.

I have been thinking and I do think we are both correct as there many factors why LCM went down over this type of behavior. I am sure VP did try to teach LCM to be discrete about what he was doing, or to hide it. There then are the factors of us getting older made some of us wiser, also that at this point if we had several years of TWI under our belts along with TWI programs, we also had more than enough crap done to us (many of us anyway) and tired of putting up with more crap. I know that is the one thing I put my foot down, is when I got married and had a child and the local TWI tried to interfere with my family. Enough was enough. Also, I know LCM did not hold the same sway and power over us that VP did. He was much more easily confronted then VP in that we, the other leaders did not hold him in the same regard that they did VP. When I returned from being a WOW 1985-1986 at the ROA, we had a WOW meeting in the WOW auditorium with some high up leadership that sat in chairs on the stage. During the meeting, LCM walked out of the wings and onto the stage. Everyone in the audience stood up and cheered for him. (We had NO idea what was going on) NOT ONE of the leadership who sat in chairs stood up, not one of them even gave LCM a decent greeting. LCM let it slide. Can anyone envision VP doing the same if that happened to him? (Heck I remember the film from Advanced Class 1979 where VP gave a few clues he was going to stand up and when he did, the camera guy didn't notice and cut off VP's head on the film and VP practically accused the camera man of being possessed by implication--No devil spirit is going to ruin my class) Can anyone envision anyone wanting to risk VP's wrath by treating him the same way as they did LCM that night.

I AM totally confused. All the time I spent in TWI, they never ever ever admitted being wrong on a doctrine or shelved a doctrine. Never. Once it was taught, it stayed put. The only way a doctrine was changed was that TWI claimed to have gotten new insight, new research new revelation on an already existing doctrine and taught it with the new light they received or whatever the hell it was they call it. Example, The solidier of God, spiritual warfare was changed into spiritual competition. They took the armor mentioned in Ephesians and claimed it was athletic and not military. The sword was to be like a javelin, able to be dexterous with the Word of God and use it like a javelin or something like that. This came about, if memory serves me correct in 1980 when WC, the research guy suppposedly went to Germany or somewhere in Europe and had access to ancient microfiche copies of the bible and did his research and 'realized that all along the Word of God was really lending itself to athletic, olympian style competition' as opposed to the standard of the rest of the Christian world seeing the armor of Ephesians being military. WC came back to HQ (if he really went there at all, if he really had access to those microfiche films, if any of that was true) and it was big breaking news, it was a spiritual competition and not a warfare scenario we were dealing with and hence Athletes of the Spirit production was being born. (but let's not mention that John Travolta and Sylvester Stallone did it first in their dance movie and doncha know spiritualists saw TWI do it and gave the info to Sylvester STallone to copy TWI--yeah we were sane) The whole MO of TWI was that they were never wrong. If they taught a doctrine in a 'new light' it was NOT because they were wrong prior, but because GOD gave them, the royal household of God (whatever they call it today), God's ministry special insight into the scriptures that NO ONE else had/has. Big difference. The whole MO of TWI is that everyone else is wrong, but them. Oh they may have given smidgeons of credit here and there, and VP may have dropped names here and there (which he did) but it was never to give creedence to anyone else but rather lend creedence to his own works. LCM didn't necessarily come up with new doctrine. He played off of VP's rendition of the original sin being masturbation. Which class was that in? Christian family and Sex? That I can't remember. But VP uses some scripture, granted saying he hadn't fully documented it and never did, but he didn't need to, we all bought it anyway, about trees and trees VP said represented penises (is that the plural of that word?) in some instances of the bible. Tree of life, tree of good and evil and he equated the two. So Eve was the first to fall and therefore if the original sin was masturbation, that is where LCM got that Eve was a lesbian...that I believe there are some lunatic theories that existed long before the likes of LCM and VP about Eve and the snake. For religious minds, those minds sure are dirty and corrupted. Anyway, there are NO new doctrines in TWI; at best someone gets 'new revy' and builds upon the old doctrine but will NOT contradict it. Since VP never fully documented his theory, LCM was free to go ahead with the homosexuality slant on Adam and Eve. TWI as I said, never admitted a doctrine was wrong, ever, that I know of. How could they? It would go against their claims of being the only ministry with the rightly divided Word of God. There are no new doctrines in TWI. The issue with the pets are not new. It was said over and over again and believed that VP hated cats. He felt cats were of the devil because they were independent and disobedient. Do you know how many Corps men resisted getting cats even though their wives wanted them because of what they said VP taught about cats? So the pet doctrine existed somewhere. The original sin existed as masturbation. All LCM did, well TWI allowed is to take these two existing stances and redress them up as new improved light. Does that mean now they are neglected or shelved doctrines if they are not being insisted on or taught with the same fevor as before? No, it's still there and when needed or when they need a new gimmick to grab people with, these or other forgotten about doctrines will get a make over and be paraded about.

To throw out all VP taught doesn't leave a person up demon possessed creek. Those Bible doctrines are still intact and taught. VP was not the access door or gateway to God or Jesus Christ. Bible doctrine does not replace God or Jesus Christ, to do so is idolatry.

Doctrines and issues I can think of off the cuff that were taught long before VP was born and was taught when he was a toddler not to mention also doctrines that were not new to the Christian world. Fellowship and sonship--Larkin and Bullinger and The Rightly Divided Word Witness of the Stars Four crucified Law or Magic of believing (trace that under the magic of believing) Jesus Christ our passover--the bible and even Reader's Digest had a book on Jesus that mentioned that there were two passovers because of the dispora, one Gallilean and one Judean. Jesus kept one, the Gallilean one and died on the Judean passover. Numerology or numbers in the bible Once saved always saved Grace apart from Works--good old reformer Martin Luther tried to get the book of James thrown out because it mentioned works Harmony of the gospels Do I need to go on? Just because VP may have introduced us to these doctrines does not give him or those who hold to his memory exclusive rights and credits. If VP had honestly set forth all the men's works and made instead of just HIS class on PFAL but had different ways to study these particular men instead of finding one way or another to discredit them (oh he's a trinitarian, he never progressed far enough in his research--Bullinger), and open OUR horizons to Bible knowledge outside of himself, instead of VP being the all in one MOG, then he would have done something to his credit. Certainly seminaries (and how did TWI, VP and LCM treat schools of thought and wisdom) and students there learning like we should have been learning, taking in many many different ideas and approaches allow people to go beyond what they are being taught and open to them new vistas where a person can explore for themselves, we were left in a group that could not go outside of itself in teachers, unless pre approved and we were stuck in an organization that would ban you and slander you if you dared to come up with biblical study that contradicted what VP taught. We're supposed to cling to that? To remain narrowed minded, closed minded and think VP and co was all that when they weren't even 1/4 of being that????? It's time to take the blinders off and smell the roses in the coffee or something. Nothing good VP ever taught originated with himself. He took it from others and package up his own bent desires with it to hide it and called it biblical research.

I would have to consider the source to take anything seriously that a person said. That holds doubly true when it comes to matters concerning eternal life, spirituality and how to live your life as Christ would have you. If the source proves himself to be of ill repute and a shining example of HOW not to live the way it's supposed to be nevertheless finding out he had a hidden agenda behind his teachings, I wouldn't give that man, nor his sharings the time of day after finding out what he was, unless I wanted to document line by line and book by book and statement by statement where he falsified and twisted and copied to show others. But as for learning anything from him? Or holding onto 'precious truths?' I don't think so, not for one nanno second.

The only difference between LCM and VP, well actually there are two, VP was a lot more discrete and did his programming through inuendo, suggestion and covert thought implants and was a lot smarter than LCM. LCM in his stupidity and arrogance, was not discrete and let the cat out of the bag of things he was taught by his Master, one of them equating MOGS with the kings of the OT. So all we speculated on and wondered about and thought using David was planned, we find out from the above posts is true. PFAL was a facade, poorly designed and stolen facade, of course it was stolen and why bother to hide it, VP wasn't interested in biblical research but rather a polished up, dressed in religious garb trap to satisfy and prey among the female sheep that would be available to him. News flash, they, VP and all those that succumbed to his practices walked and stalked among those that VP and his henchmen were not worthy of, did not deserve to be in the presence of. If they truly believed in a God, they should be found on their hands and knees begging forgiveness of that God and of those they exploited. To do anything less is unthinkable, nevertheless start up new ministries with new doctrines and new books. And people still want to worship him and think he was the real deal.

I don't remember any leader apologizing but I sure do remember being told to write apology notes myself. Dear Branch Coordinator I apologize for giggling while you were teaching the greatness of God's Word during the branch Sunday morning fellowship. No, I don't think the Word of God is funny, it was the morning sun coming through the windows behind you that illuminated your bristle hair cut and made you look like a porcupine in heat or something. I apologize for being so easily distracted from the greatness of God's Word and promise to try not to get possessed again. Yours truly Full Circle

I always saw it then as an attempt at humility, the great MOG in believing and power saying he wished he was greater in his walk with God, because if the great MOG could say that, how much more farther do us saps need to aspire, now I see it as a mock attempt at humility period.

I heard many of them say that even when they were wrong, they were right. Somewhere for some it was ingrained in their training by certain leaders. They were never wrong by then the Grand PooPoo was never wrong either.

*LOL* oh my, my cat loves to get her claws on rolls of paper towels and toilet paper, shreds it to death too after unrolling it all through the house

It is most certainly the responsibility of any organization, especially TWI, to notify their members if they had taken a change in course in belief and doctrine. Since TWI has been especially rabid against homosexuality (both male and female) and had hunted down believer in their own group, accused them, labeled them and kicked them out, not ONLY should they come clean about changing their minds on that tennet but should issue a public apology for all those hurt/ousted and mistreated because of prior doctrinal beliefs. To not do so is lying by omission, neglectful and deceitful. Until they issue a public statement saying they changed their minds, it is proper to conclude that they have the same thoughts about homosexuality of males and females. With Martingdale gone, it matters not if the same amount of vitrol is being spouted against homosexual males and females. This is a cult we're talking about and not an honest research group. Cults change enemies and the intensity of hate towards their enemies as is needed. Usually when the heat is on against an enemy that the leadership decides to target, it is an indication of how much the leadeship of said group wants to get the eyes of the followers off of leadership and distract them elsewhere. It has nothing to do with honesty or re-evaluation but finding the most handiest smoke screen available and is not a viable option to consider in not pursuing a group for previous held passionate beliefs. It is valid to consider what we know now. The facts are, there was a homo purge of males and females. There was much hurt done. It is posted that there was behavior on the part of Rosie and Donna that showed there could be an alternative lifestyle in play; which by the way, many more rank and file believers were accused and ousted for A LOT LESS. Facts are that while this 'homo purge' but TWI ensued, they survived. It is not unreasonable to ask why that is and it is not unreasonable to point out that the ONE thing TWI hated is quite possibly being practiced by those in upper level management. Did Rosie stick up for the male and female homosexual? Fact, did she come out of the closet to all? No. She did get honest and pack her bags and leave like on her own free will conscience while who knows how many people were marked to be avoided? No, she did not. Did she confront LCM? Who knows and who would ever believe any story told by either of them? That is like one Nazi guard telling the other Nazi guard not to turn on the gas chamber. People were hurt and neither of them are accurate, honest or viable enough to believe anyway. Guilty by association. Should Rosie be spared that? No. Not unless she publicly made a statement to address said issues. Which she didn't. Which she won't. And that in itself leaves TWI and Rosie wide open for speculation of why it is okay for her while for others it wasn't. If that isn't what you are asking, I have no idea then what to say.

Did I believe VP when he said that in the class about David and Bathseba? Yes. But then I was only 19, easily swayed by anyone who seemed to be reputable and who seemed to know what they are talking about. That is not a strange phenomena since commercials like to use actors in white lab coats with clipboards to sway people into thinking they were experts. As you mention a virus, either here or in your other post, it was just that. We had no idea what we accepted (some of us) and that just laid dormant until it sprung to life at the right time. It was like we had sleeper terrorist doctrines sleeping in our brains until the right stimuli came along to wake it up, ie VP and David, a man after God's own heart and all that jazz. Some of the most insidious doctrines were those we learned covertly. We didn't even realize what implications we were picking up and that were roosting in our brains as we weren't allowed to ask questions at the time to honestly evaluate what we just heard;nevertheless with all the countless new info we received in a very short time, many questions were left by the wayside. Let's take it further. Did we believe VP and company were Kings and princes over their serfdom? I don't think anyone would ever say that they honestly thought that or believed that, not then and definitely not now. But actions speak louder than words. Someone on the other thread said that some posts sounded like a D/s board, and I agree and I even think that the structure of TWI was set up with Dominants to be served by submissives or Kings and servants. Jesus said in the gospels that the minister was to be the servant of all and the greater should be the lesser or something to that effect. I can't tell you how many times I found it to be just the opposite in TWI with us lessers serving the greaters at all times. I lived in branch Way Homes, worked full time, came home, cleaned for PFAL (even if the house was clean, which is was, it was not obssessively clean enough for PFAL) and then sat down to eat a sandwich before people arrived for the class and was publicly reamed in front of the entire Way Home and class staff for daring to eat before the man of God did. fok you MOG. I have been to churches since then, I don't go now, but when I did and we had pot luck suppers, guess who was the LAST in line on purpose? The minister and his wife. Always. On purpose too. How about how we used to set up (in the 1980's) for visiting/teaching leadership? A nice table, cold glass of water (no ice it makes the glass sweat) How about bowls of cloves (when that was the fad) or mints, cigarettes nicely displayed in a serving dish. Ever try offering a MOG an instant cup of coffee? I wonder if the prophet with the Shunamite woman was thankful for his little bowl of gruel or got in a huff about what to serve a MOG? A limb leader came to town several times and I had the priviledge of living with Corps then who stripped MY MY MY room without MY permission of MY plants, my rugs and my books to haul to some building to set up this MOG's office who like to oogle me with his eyes when I sat in the front row for the class he was teaching live. Witnessing and Undersheperding. Hell even natural men didn't eat me alive with his eyes like that. Oh how about when we all had to go help an area leader's wife cook, because she sat home all day and needed to go to the hair salon, so I went and cleaned her house and cooked her share of the buffet/pot luck dinner for her minus mushrooms because this very MOG could not stand mushrooms so NO ONE could make a dish with mushrooms. Kings and queens, princes and princesses? You bet. VP was King, every one else was either vassals or serfs. We may not have said it aloud but we sure practiced it. That lie about the kingdom and all the women in it went further in practical application than we knew.

What makes me angry and disgusts me is all the anti rhetoric against anyone who was homosexual while in TWI. I remember years and years before they started the 'homo purge' (TWI's words) how TWI was very anti gay/homosexual whatever. The Heart Magazine (do you remember that) once wore a cover of Uncle Sam made up horrendously and with long painted finger nails under the banner of a title "The Queering of America." I remember how TWI taught (and I found out many funadmentalist churches as well) it was the lowest of the low to be gay, lower than a murderer and it was all the result of idolatry. I can't imagine what it would have been like to even suspect you had tendencies in that direction nevertheless to be gay/homosexual. (I don't know what the right word here is to use w/o being offensive) I can't imagine the anguish, the fear and the condemnation of thinking you were possessed because of the doctrine of TWI. Sometime during 1995 I thought I had missed the ministry after being out for five years so I called up HQ and got a phone number for a local fellowship. I never went, I overcame that laspe of judgment but I got a letter from HQ, I think it was from HA about the WOW program being cancelled or something like that and the reasoning was because of 'homos.' Their words. The letter was so ill, the content was so ill, and I saw plainly a really lame and sad attempt to lay all the blame of the ministries problems solely on those who were gay/homosexual. It was disgusting. To put out that much fear, to put out that much condemnation, to do that much damage to people's lives in purging the ministry of those who had alternative lifestyles and to accuse them of being possessed, but not only them but anyone who had NO problems with them or could or would be sympathetic to people who were gay/homosexual, to break up their marriages (there's plenty of testimony of women who were not submissive being accused of having a lesbian spirit) ONLY to be practicing the same thing in private is beyond wrong, beyond being unethical and beyond understanding. It would have been one thing if TWI believed their doctrine was true and they really meant it. It was and is a totally different issue for them to cook up a scapegoat to lay all the problems on TWI on, knowing that they did not believe it to be wrong or devilish and had upper crust members doing the same thing. If a person within a marriage finds themselves attracted to the same sex as themselves and has an affair with a same sex partner while married, it is STILL adultery. Being with the same sex partner doesn't NOT make it any less an affair or a betrayal of the marriage committment.

*tongue in cheek* Remember in PFAL VP sitting at his desk talking about the Pastor who worked a little on his sermon all week then put it in his desk drawer then took it out and worked on it and put it back and took it out? Then came Sunday and it seemed the people in his church were all set against what he was teaching? Was it VP that explained to him that the devil came and read the man's sermon and then went and visited the congregation to turn them against it? The moral of VP's story was that you had to keep the devil guessing and not let him know what you were going to teach? (how many actually did that or referred back to that during their TWI tenure) I guess the moral of the story should have been don't let the devil sit in your class either or read your books, because he would steal that as well.