JavaJane

You know what a dehumidifier is and the consequences of not emptying one.

You parents encouraged you to not have friends in school.

You vacationed in the Black Swamp.

You consider fairy tales to be devilish.

You can say f**k but you can't say luck.

Your knee jerk response to seeing someone you know is "bless you."

You know the horrors of the showers of blessing (we called them the showers of cursing.)

You thought WOW burgers tasted good.

You thought people who didn't buy meal tickets at WIB weren't spritiual (really they were just smart.)

Anyone smarter than your leadership was considered possessed.

(((((JAVAJANE)))))

Right back at ya!

I am not in as much pain as I used to be... I'm feeling much better after having a nice hot cup of reality to wake me up! I guess that's good!

You feel guilty for condemning yourself.

Your schedule is so tight you have to schedule when you can have sex with your spouse.

You have to approve that congugal time with your WC coordinator.

You clean your bathrooms three times every day so you can feel decent and in order.

A toothbrush is used for everyday cleaning.

I really think if they had just COME CLEAN on the whole bit and admitted to the wrongdoing, a lot of crap would have been avoided... instead people talk, they find out about what went on anyway, and then sit wondering what the hell else happened that they didn't know about.

And then they find out from other sources (court documents, GSC, etc.) Makes you question everything.

I have to say, I might even have maintained some respect for them if they had just ADMITTED the wrongdoing and been honest about it instead of thinking they had to protect us from the evil like little children. Instead I just felt like I was being treated like a moron.

...made "witnessing" a little difficult, too... since people could look twi up on the internet and read all the s*** that had happened, but when they questioned you on it, you knew nothing about it.

DOH!

Mmmm.. Stir Fried Poodle with Pineapple and Duck sauce

Johnny, are you getting hungry yet?

Almost thou persuadest me to be a vegetarian...

almost.

I was once trapped in a mosh pit with a friend of mine and were knocked down flat when two mosh pits at a concert merged... Thought we were going to be crushed when we fell, all the wind was knocked out of us. Out of nowhere a huge bald man covered in tattoos walked (the crowd parted in front of him) up to us, picked us both up, one in each arm (we're not little girls by any way shape or form) and simply walked out of the crowd. He put us down, and said... Don't go back in there. We told him thank you, and he was gone. We didn't see him again, which was strange, because he was at least a foot taller than everyone else at the concert.

When I was in college, I had a friend who had severe asthma. She had a bronchial spasm in our dorm room. My roommate and I got her in the car and rushed to the hospital. She was blue by the time we got there. While my roommate ran to get the ER staff, I started SITing for our friend, and she suddenly took a breath! The staff arrived just a second later and got her into the ER.

I have more, but not the time to post.

Belle sez,

in reference to how TWI operated and why it was coercive to the point that we _really_ didn't have a free-will choice.

Hoo-kay, in that case, would you (and others who agree with you here) apply the same rendering to mainstream, orthodox churches who say that unless you "come to Jesus/be saved" then you will be cast out from His Presence/into the lake of fire come Judgement Day? ... I mean, talk about something that will 'cost you your soul'! :o

Coercive, is it not? I mean, let's be consistant here. And yet, how much of that mainstream teaching allowed without so much as a 2nd thought among the same posters here? ... Wordwolf? JavaJane? Anyone else? :huh:

Well... I don't believe that people who won't come to Jesus/be saved will be cast into the lake of fire. I've never believed that. Even (if I remember correctly) while in twi it was taught that the lake of fire would be reserved for the devil and his children, not for people who just didn't chose to believe in Christ.

I do agree that teaching that you will burn forever is coercive, however.

God gave us the ability to think and exist and do. I think He wanted children who would love him even though they could think... not because he was ready to hit you over the head at any given moment, or throw you into a burning lake, or because any other alternative was too horrific to think about.

The reason I wanted to start this thread was to better understand how "free will" operates, and how to access it better. When I said we had "all" been coerced, I did not specifically mean JUST by twi. Even Eve was coerced... so was Adam... the devil tried to coerce Jesus Christ... Every human being has dealt with this in some form or another.

This forum just seemed a good place to ask, because so many people here do feel like they were coerced, manipulated, or otherwise had their free will usurped by an organization...

So, just as a refresher, since we're so far into this thread... here are my original questions:

1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?

2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?

3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?

One definition of coercion is government by force. You know.. do it, or die..

manipulation is much more subtle, not so up front.

You can lead a horse to water by salting his oats.. or you can try to drive him to it with a whip.

I guess either way, the horse needs to get the water. In the first instance (manipulation) the horse ends up with a physical need that must be met, while in the second, the horse needs the water in order to avoid pain.

I suppose the horse could run away, but in any case, the horse cannot avoid the "consequences" of its actions, either ending up dehydrated or beaten and bruised.

Either way, he ends up feeling like a horse's a**.

The ones that bark nonstop? Yep, those are the ones... now where's C G33R when you need him?

Oldies has the thought that wholesale dumping of pfal et al down the crapper because those who produced it were so jaded is some form of "victim entitlement".

Thinks it is unfair to "the product".

or to vic when he was "standing" in his "greatness".

I know, it doesn't make sense..

I can see where he's coming from because I've been there. I don't think the whole book should be thrown out - not when you can sell it on eBay and make fat bank!

j/k, Oldies. You're all right with me!

What is the difference between coercion and manipulation.

I want to know the answer to this question, too!

Mr. H, are you the one who torments the two boxers next door to my house?

What I can't seem to figure out, is why would Donna go for someone as old and as ugly as Rosalie Rivenbark?

I can't figure out why she'd go for someone so mean and ugly as LCM!!

Ahem, that dog is my departed dog's Grandfather....

Does your dog have a gift ministry?

Praise God it's FRIDAY.

Have a wonderful weekend, one and all.

Until next time. :D

Bye! Oldiesman, I'll miss you!

What you mean to say is, by your free will, you let yourself get scared, which is negative believing, so God took his hand of protection off your sphincter, and you released your bowels.

hahahahahahaha!!

Does anyone have a photo of vpw in this "sailor suit"?

I would pay money to see the GSC host an image of vpw in a Village People outfit...

Click here, wolfie: http://www.ex-way.com/gallery/twighopper-500-20.jpeg

But the old sailor suit is a little hard to see...

Garth, in the context of TWI, especially the TWI under craig & rosie, it is an accurate statement, imo.

Being wrong in that situation could cost you your soul and the "hand of protection" from God.

Maybe another way of stating it is that the only way we could truly have free will is if there was no fear of condemnation or consequences for mistakes we have made...

TWI argues that bad things happened to Joseph (son of Israel) because of by his free will choice he made bad decisions that got himself into trouble.

They really make free will a bad thing. That's why you need leadership. To do the work of the holy spirit.

I have actually heard it taught that "unchecked free will only leads to evil." This was taught at one of the last fellowships I attended. Scared the pooooop out of me.

JavaJane,

Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?

By "disobeying" WITH the leadership's kid, I meant that they BOTH were involved in said disobedience. In this case, why weren't BOTH sets of parents dealth with? Instead, only one set of parents was asked to leave.

As for the details other than this, I don't feel it my place to state as they involve my family members personally, and I don't want their names being drug into this.

Oldies, I do appreciate your posts. Really, I do. It takes guts to speak your mind like you do, and I enjoy it! You make people think, and that is always a good thing!

That's EXACTLY what I was referring to, Mr. B!

I've been watching you, Ham. Just not here at the cafe, but rather here:

Many times the work is beautiful - but the addition of the scripture is in my opinion, a manipulation that the Christian public falls for. Now, maybe because most folks are so ignorant about art, that the addition of a verse at the bottom is sort of a subliminal, "Buy me! I'm Godly art" that helps clinch the deal.

Because, after all, how the hell are we supposed to know it's godly and edifying UNLESS you put a verse on it?

Oh, wait! that would require thought!

So is this what LCM meant when he said "certain homosexual acts are worthy of death" but not all...

He may have meant that the ones between women were ok if he could be there, too.

Yeah.... that's a LOVING god... NOT! My own flesh and blood father doesn't require me to jump through half the hoops TWI's god does. [/color]

Thanks, Belle for your sweet post!

My own flesh and blood father even took me back and forgave everything... in fact, he never even held what I did against me! What does that say for fatherly love??

How about this for choice?

A husband and wife with a slew of beautiful children commit themselves to the Word of God. They sell everything they have and leave their eldest behind who has never been out on her own in order to go into the WC to "serve God better." They pull their other children out of their schools (two of them are in high school, one almost ready to graduate) and head into the Corps. At the advice of their leadership and because she has no where else to go, the eldest child heads out on a mission to bring the Word to the World.

While there at the root locale, the family is kicked out due to a disobedient child who is "disobeying" with the leadership's kid. They are sent away in disgrace to a completely different area where they know no one. They live like homeless vagrants, but they don't tell their daughter, because they don't want her to stumble in her own believing while is is serving the Word to others...

Once they are finally settled, the "disobedient" child becomes severely depressed because that child is the cause of th evil that has happened to their family. They watch him closely, fearing suicide. But, when the child becomes involved in drugs (in order to mask the pain and guilt they feel) the parents are told by their WC to kick thier child out because he won't obey.

So they do. The child is left alone before they are even 16 years old. This child becomes a drug dealer to support theirself. They end up in gangs, and eventually in prison.

Meanwhile, the parents try once again to go serve God as WC. But, hey, once they get there, now the wife is considered to be headstrong and difficult, and the husband is told that he is "ballless" and needs to take their remaining child (the rest are on their own now) away from his wife, and divorce her in order to serve God.

This couple was made MA. Their eldest, trying to serve God the best she can, gets a phone call from her WC telling her that her parents are MA, and that it is up to her how she wants to handle the situation. She speaks with her parents. They tell her of the terrible wrongs done to their family. She tells them to write to the MOG and tell him, because he must not know what is happening! They do.

A month later, their daughter gets a letter from the man who made her parents MA and caused these injustices. It tells her that her family's conscience has been seared with a hot iron... that they are evil... But the stand of their daughter (mind you, she has been "raised in the Word") could save their lives.

So, in order to save her family, and at the encouragement of her personal leadership, the daughter does not speak to them for 5 years...

Does this sound wrong to you? It happened. The Word of God was twisted. It was used not as God intended, but as a weapon against His children. It was wrong.

Did I have a choice? Yes.

Could I have walked away? Yes.

Did I think it would result in calamity for my family and possibly their deaths? Yes.

Seems very similar to having a gun pointed at them, only I couldn't see the gun... That gun was God.

And what about the child who was thrown in prison? Well, here's a happy ending... That child is now an adult who has been through a lot, and has a lot to give. This individual exercised their free will and overcame their addiction and got out of the gangs.

In many ways, twi was my addiction. GSC is my rehab.

All of these posts have got me thinking about my motivations as well as the concept of free will... They seem to tie together.

My motivation for doing the things I did while in twi that I am now ashamed of... these motivations were (as Mrs. B said earlier) because of my reality at the time. And these motivations were bred because of my environment, an environment that started as a loving place that actually read the Bible and people who (although seeming a little strange sometimes) genuinely loved God. Slowly the environment changed, and so did my reality. It went from a place where people read the Bible and loved God to a place where I had to be right all the time in order to love God.

My experiences were similar to Mrs. B's... I remember the desire to go into the Corps being shoved down my throat many times - I was told I had a ministry, that God was calling me to go into the WC... It fed my ego, but deep inside, I knew that God had not called me to by WC... it seemed so restrictive. I'm glad I chose to never go WC, but to stay a little meek believer and give to people as I could.

So, I guess in this instance I did not allow my free will be usurped.

BUT - in other cases I was taken advantage of and convinced to do things I knew were not right. For instance, MAing my family, not speaking to them for years and years, and letting myself be convinced that they were evil possessed people who were using their abilities to further the cause of the devil... and deep down I didn't want to do this... I allowed myself to be convinced that they were evil people, and that somehow, by never speaking to them again, I would bring deliverance to their lives. I cried for days after making that decision... because I didn't want to do it.

So, why did I? How was I convinced to hurt those dearest to my heart? How was the choice manipulated? In short, what was my reality at the time?

I wanted to serve God, I wanted to do what was right... and I was afraid - afraid for my family and myself. Afraid that God would withdraw His love and protection from my family's life if I did not stand with the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.

Did I have the free will choice? Yes. Did I make the choice I wanted to make? No.

At another point, I was serving in a place that I hated. I hated my job, I hated the place, I hated the weather (the sun didn't shine literally for 21 days straight while I was there), BUT I thought I needed to keep a committment I had made before I knew what I was getting into.

I thought I was serving God. That was my reality. I made choices based on that reality.

But these things were illusions brought about by two distinct things: fear and the desire to do the right thing.

I think the only way I could ever really have the ability to be free is to recognize that I don't have to be "right" with God because He's my dad, and loves me no matter if I make the right choice or the wrong choice. This is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, not being entangled with the yoke of bondage (legalism, trying to cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness.)

I hope that makes sense. True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.

Yes I'm still not sure what exactly a conscience is, don't even know if that matters. I enjoy everyone's posts in this thread also.

Another thing that confounds me about conscience is intuition or "gut feelings". Things that don't have to do with morals. Like when I'm taking a test at school, have a "gut feeling" about an answer to a question, don't know why, but it turns out to be right. Just stuff like that. when you've got a problem and you're like "maybe I should try this", and it leads you to more answers.

Sounds similar to the conscience.

I think this ties in with the concept of sunesis... those different types of understanding flowing together. I tend to learn in this way... I take a lot in, and then while putting it into practice, suddenly it pops together and makes sense... With me a lot of times it's a gut feeling. I've learned recently to follow those feelings, they are usually based on knowledge previously gained and as yet unused.

Plus, it helps you to learn yourself and how you think... and gives you the ability totrust your own judgement.