JavaJane

I have some friends who left recently because of they didn't feel their chidren were being taken care of in the fellowship. They began attending a local church just so their kids could spend time learning the Bible from a child perspective. But we were always taugth after they did away with children's fellowship that it was the PARENT'S responsibility to teach them the Word.

I grew up in Sunday school in my preschool days, and I loved it. I wanted to learn all the Bible stories, and it really helped me understand the Bible when I was old enough to read it myself. It's a shame that they couldn't see this, and instead taught these children (as well as the rest of us) that the Bible and God is a burden to be borne without fun, and especially without twitching!

I should get lots of rewards for commitment. Probably few if any for brains.

I'll be right there next to you, AS to receive those committment awards. Hopefully I will have lost the dunce cap by then!

It's amazing how much this place has inspired me to start on my creative endeavors again. I'm getting inspiration all over the place.

I aim to take some time in the next week and really work on some stuff. I'm actually excited!

I'll let you all know how it goes!

I remember when Steve died as well, I was good friends with someone in their fellowship. It happened in the middle of a foundational class my friend was taking. They just kept going with the class. I remember thinking that was very weird.

But, with only the suppresion of the conscience, a mind could become reliant upon only that which it was taught as right and wrong. This would account for behaviours exhibited in TWI where a person was commanded to perform an action, for instance, believed to be morally wrong, but which the person willingly carried out due to being taught that such action was correct. This confusing behaviour...morally wrong, yet the right thing to do...could, then, be the result of the conscience being surpressed...and in the extreme, actually seared.

I think this suppresion happens gradually, over an extended period of time, and conversely, could be healed gradually, over a period of time (barring a miracle such as Paul's being blinded). Gradually comming to the realization of the wrongs done at the hands of TWI leadership might be an example of this healing conscience. Couple this with input from the Word and, not only the conscience could become whole again, but the mind would re-learn the application of right and wrong thinking....the end goal being a fully renewed mind.

Hmmmm......still trying to fit the pieces together in this puzzle called life. :)

This makes a lot of sense to me... Thank you, Listener!

One thing I realized a few minutes ago: It wasn’t so much that the doctrines were such a big problem (if they were, I wouldn’t have paid much attention to twi at all). It was more the context and application of the doctrines that were so destructive. Take the law of believing for example. Had it not been used like a baseball bat, it wouldn’t have been so bad. Be indifferent to terrible tragedy, because believing was at fault. How about especially good to the household? Well that’s in the Bible. Fine. The problem was in the application. Twi was the household. Be indifferent to all others. Thus, twi redefined right from wrong in a manner that would violate the ethics of most people, Christian or not. All over the world, to be exact.

So, our ethics changed, our morals changed, our beliefs regarding right from wrong changed, we suppressed our emotions, it changed who we were in some very fundamental ways. I know it affected my conscience, I’m just not sure how exactly. At a bare minimum, it was certainly sedated. I think of sedated as asleep. Turns out it’s a synonym for numb. That fits too.

Hmmmm….sin. The leadership sinned ie T-bone’s post. They taught us to do the same, see paragraphs above. Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm. We did it. That by itself is a big deal.

God, I LOVE this place!

As I was sitting before almighty mr. "never mix my bread and vegetables", he "boldly" proclaimed,

"if I were you, I'd spill your guts. Tell me what your problem is.."

Hmm.. did I forget to shower that morning? Brush my teeth.. lessee.

At that point I figured it out, that I was dealing with lunatics.

But what was he fishing for..

As one of the "new guys", he had better start getting "results". Of course, to have results, you must find some problems to solve, and then of course, solve them.

How many of us were force fed problems, often that we did not have, then to undergo radical "treatment" to justify these sycophant's existence...

Yeah, I remember that - and quite recently, too. Made me sick... literally. I would get so tied up around myself trying to figure out what I done wrong that this "spritiual" man could see, I would end up hiding in a closet (literally, at times) crying my eyes out not knowing what was wrong with me. Lost a lot of weight dealing with it, too, because I had no appetite.

He was the worst I've had to deal with. I know others had a worse time that I did with the guy, too.

I am completely amazed and in awe of the responses posted here! You guys are some awesome deep thinkers!

Mrs. B - your experiences mirror mine in a way I didn't even know. Someone's perception at that moment is their reality - no matter what else is going on at the time, and though we would want to do things differently, our motive of heart has a lot to do with how God sees it - why else would it say that He is the heart-searcher?

RG - good points on factor effecting free will!

MarkOMalley - Thanks for the post - it was very healing, and good examples to think about.

Hammeroni - I like squirrels. I wonder if they have free will?

Oakspear - your quote "We have free will, but sometimes none of the choices that we can freely make are good ones." - profound, to say the least.

Waysider and Twinky - "TWI usurped our free will" is a great way to put it.

PB - "They preached "free will" but in practice is was "do what we tell you to"." - Never thought of it that way... things were so shrouded, but like Mrs. B said, the critical thinking has been turned on.

Johniam - "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". I like that song, too.

Likeaneagle - I just stopped giving people those damn forms. When they called my cell phone because they didn't know how to contact me (but they called me??) I told them that they didn't need the form, they got a hold of me just fine.

Mike - Way deep thoughts (no pun intended, or offense.)

Speaking of racist: During my interim year in the 13th Corps at HQ, I went with a black woman from the 12th Corps to Adolph's. They would not allow my friend to order because she was black ... this was 1984! Talk about racist ... I think the entire town of New Knoxville had some issues with black folk, if the folks at Adolph's were any indication.

And to think the place was named "Adolph's" Who would have thought?

Ok, one more question for you guys who were around for longer than me....

I had heard from someone a long time back that interracial marriages in twi were discouraged? Is this true? what backing did they use from the Bible?

At first I thought about putting this one in the Doctrinal section, but I think I'm looking for something not doctrinal, but practical...

I have some questions:

1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?

2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?

3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?

I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...."

But, was this truly the case? Where does free will end and where does it begin? How does spiritual abuse factor into the concept of free will? Past experiences?

I thought maybe asking some people who have been manipulated by twi would have some answers and be able to shed some light on this.

Thanks for listening and thanks for posting!

dear bolshevik

my prayers have turned to talking

love,ex

I'm getting there, too! Thanks for the thread!

I also was raised in twi, but not until I was a teenager, thank God!

My main concern for the children raised in it was the extremely sheltered life they led, without being exposed to anything that was considered "devilish" - no He-Man, no books with magic or fairies, or aliens. No scary movies... and not being allowed to be around other normal children. I have often wondered if this led to extremely rebellious behavior after they were finally out on their own.

It did to me, and my parents weren't that bad! Once I was out of the house, it was like the world was my candy store, and I had as much of it as I possibly could (except for drugs, because I figured that would lead to IMMEDIATE possession, which scared the poop out of me.) Ended up in some bad situations because I didn't understand what was going on - I was toooo niave.

Mr. and Mrs. B - did this happen to you guys, too?

Are you saying I was born of a twi toilet?

sure do feel that way at times.

No, not that you were born of a toilet, simply that your name was... How can they expect people to stay as an employee when basic human dignity is ignored??

Have to go to work soon, so this will be short:

Just wanted to thank all of you for giving me something deep to think about today!

I have come to the conclusion that one of the greatest things God gave us was free will... even greater than any Law or commandment, He gave us the ability to think and choose freely how we want to be. This right is incredibly huge.

It must hurt His heart terribly to have that right squelched or to have His children taught that only one way of loving Him is right. To teach people to turn off that ability that even natural man has to choose right or wrong and simply be led blindly has got to earn people (as my husband says) "a special place in hell."

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

There's a happy thought!

Keep thinking!!

What about "Righteous anger?" That has yet to be explored because artists are too busy painting the easy stuff and preaching to the choir.

Give me some time to look up an article and I'll show you just what a painting can do....

Breathe ....breathe.... breathe......

May you live to be a thousand years old, DOOJABLE!!

I also hate trite art. We used to call it back in college - artsy and vague... boring peices of art with no meaning behind them!

As for the righteous anger bit, that's the subject of one project I am in the midst of... it's become cathartic for me as I work to express this anger in the situations my characters find themselves in.

So, maybe, one day, you might get a glimpse of that righteous anger in a written form... I just need to finish the darn thing!

For me, that's what music is about.

Sometime one musician can speak volumes with one single soulful note while another more technically polished musician can play flurry after flurry of intricate phrases and "say" virtually nothing.

I wish I could quote Shakespear. There is a line somewhere about an actor boxing with the air in an effort to convey the essense of a line to no avail because the essense was lost and consumed in concern over technique rather than meaning.

This is one of my biggest problems with some writing - the authors get so caught up in using big expensive words that it takes forever to figure out what exactly they are trying to say - gets a little bit annoying.

R&E book was like that for me...

And eloquent phrases that mean nothing are the absolute worst... It's such an easy way of looking smart without saying anything (i.e. "God bless you abundantly in the powerful prevailing name of our living Lod and Savior Jesus Christ, I greet you with a holy kiss... blah blah blah... only really worked for epistles, not every damn document... especially greeting cards when a simple "happy birthday, we love you" would probably really make someone very happy.

Boys will be boys... so don't even give them an opportunity if you can help it!

It always bothered me when I would hear about multiple married WC couples having to share a room together. Did this actually happen, or is it a rumor? I heard it so long ago, I may have just not heard it correctly.

Then again, with some of the things I have heard posted here, maybe it really did happen.

yuck.

Ok, Mr. B... you asked for it

Excerpts from emails from various points of view regarding the conscience and morality:

(warning – lengthy post)

Agnostic: My general thought/feeling is that there are some good values taught by the Bible. BUT… and it’s a big but… I have a massive problem with the more extremist factions that act as if good values begin and end with Christianity, as if prior to Moses everyone ran around killing and wife-swapping and so on. Simple logic dictates that societies would not have existed in the form they did at that time had there been mass chaos and absolutely no morals or ethics. It’s good business to be honest and not kill your neighbor or steal stuff from your boss, and business was thriving by all archeaoligical accounts. …It just really gets me when people imply that if you’re not Christian, you’re some sort of unpredictable chaotic neutral potential evil.

Christian Minister: Okay, so then where does our conscience (that which tells us right from wrong or even suggests that there is a right and wrong) come from?... Seems to imply some sort of Maker of humans, doesn’t it? How can science explain the source of a conscience? How does science explain things like love, beauty, awe and wonder, creativity, the desire to be in a relationship with others, etc?

Athiest: It appears what is being referred to is the existence of a soul. I’m sure we’ve all heard of dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, melatonin, etc… Those are all chemicals that are present in our brains and bodies, and we know (again, thanks to science) that these chemicals are linked to emotions. Not only do we know of the link, we can even manipulate brain chemistry through medication and see a direct and predictable effect on emotions. And conversely, we can stimulate emotional responses and see corresponding and predictable changes in the brain.

…so what does this have to do with a conscience or a soul? All of the things you have implied are evidence of some higher, external force acting on humans are emotions, which science tells us are controlled and created by chemicals internal to the human body. Evolution also explains several of your questions. …all of these things are traits that (most) people possess. They are also traits that are necessary for the human race to survive. Natural selection does an excellent job of explaining these things, despite what the Kansas School Board would have you believe.

JavaJane: I agree with the agnostic’s viewpoint and strangely can quote something from the Bible to back it up:

Romans 2:10a But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good…

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2:14 Even when the Gentiles who do not have God’s written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.

Romans 2:15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.

Unitarian: I have four worthless comments that will add absolutely nothing to this fascinating dialogue and discussion:

1. I don’t believe in God but I am very interested in Her.

2. Sometimes I think we’re alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we’re not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

3. The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.

4. The god that the atheists deny never existed.

Undeclared: Well, I certainly believe in “God” – but I also believe that “God” is the ultimate scientist – Creator of the Universe!

Agnostic: Do I believe in a god? (notice I didn’t ask if there is a god, just if I believe in one.) I go back and forth on this one. If there is something out there, I’m damn sure that it’s absolutely horrified at what the American Christian church – and most others, probably – has been up to. I can’t think of anyone who should be more ....ed off than the Christians about the president using God as a reason for anything. I generally think that religions are beautiful things that should be preserved, and the whole “because God told me to” just irks me. It’s like using a Greek bust for a boat anchor.

And as for atheists, I don’t know that I really pit myself in that group, mainly because so many of them are so obnoxious… as are fundamentalist Christians. What good does it do you to coerce/nag/guilt people into joining? Doesn’t it just weaken your church? I should clarify that I do NOT think that this is because of the religion – JavaJanes’s quotes made that clear – there is such a sense of self-righteousness or pride or correctness that is carried around by many Christians, and I’d have to say that if there’s one thing that keeps me absolutely sure that I’m disinterested, it’s that attitude.

Christian: It once occurred to me that man was the only animal capable of good and evil. If I ever set out to “prove” that there was (or WHY there was) a God, I think this is where I would start. Animals take on characteristics that we say are good or bad, but in the end an animal can only follow its instinct. A well-trained dog may not dig through the trash when you are gone, but it’s not out of any moral obligation. (This may be a foundation of most people’s ethics too, but I digress.)

I think the mystery of God and goodness and the devil and evil is in the choice we have. Why are we the only species that has the ability to act beyond our instinct? Why can a man chose to starve to death before he steals bread? Why are we different? Good deeds would cease to be good if they were either instinctual or automatic. It’s only in the ability to choose one action over another that our lives have any moral weight at all. It’s hard to argue that the ability to override animal emotion was a survival mechanism evolved over time. It would argue that adherence to biological instinct would prove to be a much more resilient trait. I think we are what we are because God, taking the chance we might turn out absolutely horrible, gave us the chance to be good, and I think that’s where our link to God lies. It’s not in the faith you profess (cause who really cares? God?) It’s in what you do with your life. …Ghandi once said “To me God is Truth and Love. God is Ethics and Morality. God is Fearlessness. God is the essence of life and light and yet He is above and beyond all these. God is conscience. He is even the atheism of the atheist. For in His boundlessness, God permits the atheist to live. He is the searcher of hearts. He is a personal God to those who need His personal presence. He is embodied to those who need His touch.

Atheist: I try to avoid associating intelligence or lack thereof with religious devotion (or lack thereof), but you do make an interesting point. I’ve always had the same belief that most people never examine why they believe in their given religion. And, hopefully I’m not offending anyone, but I’ve always found it to be extremely bizarre behavior to believe so strongly in something and be totally devoted to it and let it make your life choices for you, without ever honestly considering any other option, or for that matter, without CONSTANTLY considering other options. That’s how humanity has achieved so much – not by continuing to do the same thing over and over again just because that’s how it’s “always” been done.

Some people believe choice is an illusion; that we’re all just passively playing out our little parts in the inevitable result of the grand scheme of things, whatever that is. I generally don’t buy that. I think we do have free will.

Agnostic: Many people have this idea that someone that does not believe in God would be miserable, without morals, directionless, would have not hope and not dreams for the future and no joy in their lives. The truth of the matter is quite opposite. For me, there was a sudden realization that I am accountable not to some invisible spirit who may or may not be paying attention and may or may not care, but to myself. That the good that I do can be attributed to me, and for the bad I must hold myself responsible. I did not suddenly think “there are no consequences for my actions” as people seem to think atheists believe, rather I thought, “there are massive consequences for my actions.” …a true atheist realizes that no one is going to save us except us. There is no God to clean up my mess or help me make a decision or find me a job. There is no safety net.

I said before I don’t tend to call myself an atheist because so many of them are so obnoxious. There are pretty much two groups: People who are trying to get a rise out of other who haven’t really thought about I, and use it because it sounds good and they don’t like church. These people tell everyone they can they are atheists and try to disprove others beliefs often with a good chunk of “I’m smarter than you” thrown in. And secondly, people like me.

JavaJane: Funny, how similar my arguments are for not wanting to tell most people I am a Christian.

Christian Minister: Yep. Any group of people has some resemblance to these two classifications.

Unitarian: Story goes that while on a trip to England in the 1940s, around WWII time, Ghandi was supposedly asked by a Brit, "What do you think of Western Civilization?" Ghandi is said to have replied something like, "Western Civilization? What a good idea. You should try it sometime." I'm afraid I feel much the same way about Christianity. Maybe we should try it sometime.

The basic, simple, yet profound gospel/good word espoused by Jesus as I understand it - love your neighbor at any given moment (who's next to you right now?)... and to practice Love (God as a noun and a verb) by being loving is pretty much expressed in action, by will and choice.

SORRY FOR THE LENGTH, I just couldn't stop after I re-read the emails!

The funniest part to me, though, was that all the dishes and silverware at HQ went through a heavy-duty steam-clean scald as they were cleaned. Killed all the germs, dontcha know. But it also left spots. So at the head table, we took a slightly dampened rag and polished everything. Granted we did it with freshly-washed hands and freshly-washed cloths, but I still felt like we were dirtying up the head table dinnerware, lol.

Hee hee... I always felt the same way when we would get the talk about getting your paper towels from the dispenser before you washed your hands after using the bathroom... So you wouldn't drip water across the sink and get it dirty. Then, after you dried your hands with the DIRTY TOWEL you got directly AFTER YOU USED THE POTTY you should use that to wipe up any water marks you made on the sink.

If you think it through, you just end up putting your potty germs you washed off your hands back on your hands and then spread them all over the sink, thereby spreading them to every single person who used the bathroom after you!

So much for all the cleaning!

I tend to lean towards the idea that the conscience is a part of God within us – a spark left over from the original way He created us in His own image.

Romans 2:10,11, 14, 15 (KJV)

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I had a very long email conversation with some hardcore athiest and fundamentalist Christian folks a while back about morality and conscience... it was very enlightening... I will see if I can come up with some of the remarks from my old emails. It was brilliant!

Mexicans ROCK!!

:P

Whiteside's book was also about how to evaluate art to make sure it lined up with twi theology.

That's why it included an example: a piece of art, and a critique of why it was considered

spiritually "off"-

the rigidity of the lines (the dancers' legs, and how they boxed in the violinist)

and the darkened eyes (the violinist's eyes were done in black)-

and how that makes a difference spiritually.

I believe I bought that in 1988.

That's scary, since I have relatives who's eyes are so dark they appear black... you can't even distinguish the pupils from the iris.

Could they be devil spirit possessed? Or just a different color?

The point I was trying to make was that Adam and Eve's original ability to discern between good and evil was based on an external commandment of God's, not on an internal, inbred warning system. It doesn't seem to me that they had some internal moral compass (or conscience) but had to depend on the direction of God. I'm not so sure either that they were that much different than believers nowadays (with the possible exception of Christ within that we have). We also have to depend om the written direction of God for much of our knowledge of good and evil.

But weren't they created in the image of God? They had His spirit within them at the time of the sin. Since it was built in to them at the point of their Genesis, wouldn't that be considered internal?

Just a question.

Thanks!

I couldn't resist after seeing Mr and Mrs B's handles. Reminded me of an old advertisement I saw in a friend's bathroom back in college.

"Is your bathroom breeding bolsheviks? Employees lose respect for a company that fails to provide decent facilities for their comfort."

From my experience and the experience of family and friends, seems like a there's a lot of bathrooms breeding bolsheviks at twi... Newly married couples not having their own bathrooms, telephones in the halls with no privacy, lack of internet, too many work hours...

Not to mention FAMILIA!! and CHARD!!

Not quite my picture of the More ABUNDANT Life...

How about you?

**edited to add poster image**

Did you know you can't play checkers and drive a car at the same time? You should also have both hands on the wheel and not around you girlfriend.

Or someone not your wife... preferably young and cute....

And a good reason for a motorcoach, complete with dirver, huh?

SAFETY FIRST!!!