JavaJane

I can see where he's coming from because I've been there. I don't think the whole book should be thrown out - not when you can sell it on eBay and make fat bank! j/k, Oldies. You're all right with me! I want to know the answer to this question, too!

Mr. H, are you the one who torments the two boxers next door to my house?

I can't figure out why she'd go for someone so mean and ugly as LCM!!

Does your dog have a gift ministry?

Bye! Oldiesman, I'll miss you! hahahahahahaha!!

Click here, wolfie: http://www.ex-way.com/gallery/twighopper-500-20.jpeg But the old sailor suit is a little hard to see...

Maybe another way of stating it is that the only way we could truly have free will is if there was no fear of condemnation or consequences for mistakes we have made... I have actually heard it taught that "unchecked free will only leads to evil." This was taught at one of the last fellowships I attended. Scared the pooooop out of me.

By "disobeying" WITH the leadership's kid, I meant that they BOTH were involved in said disobedience. In this case, why weren't BOTH sets of parents dealth with? Instead, only one set of parents was asked to leave. As for the details other than this, I don't feel it my place to state as they involve my family members personally, and I don't want their names being drug into this. Oldies, I do appreciate your posts. Really, I do. It takes guts to speak your mind like you do, and I enjoy it! You make people think, and that is always a good thing!

That's EXACTLY what I was referring to, Mr. B!

Because, after all, how the hell are we supposed to know it's godly and edifying UNLESS you put a verse on it? Oh, wait! that would require thought!

He may have meant that the ones between women were ok if he could be there, too.

Thanks, Belle for your sweet post! My own flesh and blood father even took me back and forgave everything... in fact, he never even held what I did against me! What does that say for fatherly love??

How about this for choice? A husband and wife with a slew of beautiful children commit themselves to the Word of God. They sell everything they have and leave their eldest behind who has never been out on her own in order to go into the WC to "serve God better." They pull their other children out of their schools (two of them are in high school, one almost ready to graduate) and head into the Corps. At the advice of their leadership and because she has no where else to go, the eldest child heads out on a mission to bring the Word to the World. While there at the root locale, the family is kicked out due to a disobedient child who is "disobeying" with the leadership's kid. They are sent away in disgrace to a completely different area where they know no one. They live like homeless vagrants, but they don't tell their daughter, because they don't want her to stumble in her own believing while is is serving the Word to others... Once they are finally settled, the "disobedient" child becomes severely depressed because that child is the cause of th evil that has happened to their family. They watch him closely, fearing suicide. But, when the child becomes involved in drugs (in order to mask the pain and guilt they feel) the parents are told by their WC to kick thier child out because he won't obey. So they do. The child is left alone before they are even 16 years old. This child becomes a drug dealer to support theirself. They end up in gangs, and eventually in prison. Meanwhile, the parents try once again to go serve God as WC. But, hey, once they get there, now the wife is considered to be headstrong and difficult, and the husband is told that he is "ballless" and needs to take their remaining child (the rest are on their own now) away from his wife, and divorce her in order to serve God. This couple was made MA. Their eldest, trying to serve God the best she can, gets a phone call from her WC telling her that her parents are MA, and that it is up to her how she wants to handle the situation. She speaks with her parents. They tell her of the terrible wrongs done to their family. She tells them to write to the MOG and tell him, because he must not know what is happening! They do. A month later, their daughter gets a letter from the man who made her parents MA and caused these injustices. It tells her that her family's conscience has been seared with a hot iron... that they are evil... But the stand of their daughter (mind you, she has been "raised in the Word") could save their lives. So, in order to save her family, and at the encouragement of her personal leadership, the daughter does not speak to them for 5 years... Does this sound wrong to you? It happened. The Word of God was twisted. It was used not as God intended, but as a weapon against His children. It was wrong. Did I have a choice? Yes. Could I have walked away? Yes. Did I think it would result in calamity for my family and possibly their deaths? Yes. Seems very similar to having a gun pointed at them, only I couldn't see the gun... That gun was God. And what about the child who was thrown in prison? Well, here's a happy ending... That child is now an adult who has been through a lot, and has a lot to give. This individual exercised their free will and overcame their addiction and got out of the gangs. In many ways, twi was my addiction. GSC is my rehab.

All of these posts have got me thinking about my motivations as well as the concept of free will... They seem to tie together. My motivation for doing the things I did while in twi that I am now ashamed of... these motivations were (as Mrs. B said earlier) because of my reality at the time. And these motivations were bred because of my environment, an environment that started as a loving place that actually read the Bible and people who (although seeming a little strange sometimes) genuinely loved God. Slowly the environment changed, and so did my reality. It went from a place where people read the Bible and loved God to a place where I had to be right all the time in order to love God. My experiences were similar to Mrs. B's... I remember the desire to go into the Corps being shoved down my throat many times - I was told I had a ministry, that God was calling me to go into the WC... It fed my ego, but deep inside, I knew that God had not called me to by WC... it seemed so restrictive. I'm glad I chose to never go WC, but to stay a little meek believer and give to people as I could. So, I guess in this instance I did not allow my free will be usurped. BUT - in other cases I was taken advantage of and convinced to do things I knew were not right. For instance, MAing my family, not speaking to them for years and years, and letting myself be convinced that they were evil possessed people who were using their abilities to further the cause of the devil... and deep down I didn't want to do this... I allowed myself to be convinced that they were evil people, and that somehow, by never speaking to them again, I would bring deliverance to their lives. I cried for days after making that decision... because I didn't want to do it. So, why did I? How was I convinced to hurt those dearest to my heart? How was the choice manipulated? In short, what was my reality at the time? I wanted to serve God, I wanted to do what was right... and I was afraid - afraid for my family and myself. Afraid that God would withdraw His love and protection from my family's life if I did not stand with the ONE TRUE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. Did I have the free will choice? Yes. Did I make the choice I wanted to make? No. At another point, I was serving in a place that I hated. I hated my job, I hated the place, I hated the weather (the sun didn't shine literally for 21 days straight while I was there), BUT I thought I needed to keep a committment I had made before I knew what I was getting into. I thought I was serving God. That was my reality. I made choices based on that reality. But these things were illusions brought about by two distinct things: fear and the desire to do the right thing. I think the only way I could ever really have the ability to be free is to recognize that I don't have to be "right" with God because He's my dad, and loves me no matter if I make the right choice or the wrong choice. This is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, not being entangled with the yoke of bondage (legalism, trying to cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness.) I hope that makes sense. True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.

I think this ties in with the concept of sunesis... those different types of understanding flowing together. I tend to learn in this way... I take a lot in, and then while putting it into practice, suddenly it pops together and makes sense... With me a lot of times it's a gut feeling. I've learned recently to follow those feelings, they are usually based on knowledge previously gained and as yet unused. Plus, it helps you to learn yourself and how you think... and gives you the ability totrust your own judgement.

I have some friends who left recently because of they didn't feel their chidren were being taken care of in the fellowship. They began attending a local church just so their kids could spend time learning the Bible from a child perspective. But we were always taugth after they did away with children's fellowship that it was the PARENT'S responsibility to teach them the Word. I grew up in Sunday school in my preschool days, and I loved it. I wanted to learn all the Bible stories, and it really helped me understand the Bible when I was old enough to read it myself. It's a shame that they couldn't see this, and instead taught these children (as well as the rest of us) that the Bible and God is a burden to be borne without fun, and especially without twitching!

I'll be right there next to you, AS to receive those committment awards. Hopefully I will have lost the dunce cap by then!

It's amazing how much this place has inspired me to start on my creative endeavors again. I'm getting inspiration all over the place. I aim to take some time in the next week and really work on some stuff. I'm actually excited! I'll let you all know how it goes!

I remember when Steve died as well, I was good friends with someone in their fellowship. It happened in the middle of a foundational class my friend was taking. They just kept going with the class. I remember thinking that was very weird.

This makes a lot of sense to me... Thank you, Listener! God, I LOVE this place!

Yeah, I remember that - and quite recently, too. Made me sick... literally. I would get so tied up around myself trying to figure out what I done wrong that this "spritiual" man could see, I would end up hiding in a closet (literally, at times) crying my eyes out not knowing what was wrong with me. Lost a lot of weight dealing with it, too, because I had no appetite. He was the worst I've had to deal with. I know others had a worse time that I did with the guy, too.

I am completely amazed and in awe of the responses posted here! You guys are some awesome deep thinkers! Mrs. B - your experiences mirror mine in a way I didn't even know. Someone's perception at that moment is their reality - no matter what else is going on at the time, and though we would want to do things differently, our motive of heart has a lot to do with how God sees it - why else would it say that He is the heart-searcher? RG - good points on factor effecting free will! MarkOMalley - Thanks for the post - it was very healing, and good examples to think about. Hammeroni - I like squirrels. I wonder if they have free will? Oakspear - your quote "We have free will, but sometimes none of the choices that we can freely make are good ones." - profound, to say the least. Waysider and Twinky - "TWI usurped our free will" is a great way to put it. PB - "They preached "free will" but in practice is was "do what we tell you to"." - Never thought of it that way... things were so shrouded, but like Mrs. B said, the critical thinking has been turned on. Johniam - "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". I like that song, too. Likeaneagle - I just stopped giving people those damn forms. When they called my cell phone because they didn't know how to contact me (but they called me??) I told them that they didn't need the form, they got a hold of me just fine. Mike - Way deep thoughts (no pun intended, or offense.)

And to think the place was named "Adolph's" Who would have thought?

Ok, one more question for you guys who were around for longer than me.... I had heard from someone a long time back that interracial marriages in twi were discouraged? Is this true? what backing did they use from the Bible?