Shifra

Dear Another Spot, You talked about getting to a level where "It's not important how others treat you" ... as tho' this is the apex of Agape. Did I understand you correctly? THIS concept of Agape is the one that gets dangerous. In fact, this concept of Christianity itself is the classic twist in the road, that has led so many well-meaning people AWAY from the sort of life that God wants for us. Why? Because we prioritize Service above Self. And then we get sick or impoverished or cynical, because we have de-valued our own worth in order to take care of everyone else. This is sick. This is not the divine plan. As someone said earlier, we are not required to have nails pounded into our hands, because Jesus did that for us. Now THIS was God's plan, God's Agape. Not only do we not have to do this, we are not able to do this. To presume that we can even approach loving at the level that God loves us ... is ridiculous (maybe even blasphemy!). And to religiously make ourselves "low man on the totem pole" is ... sin. TWI and most churches are in defiance of God when they ignore - or more precisely when they condemn - the Godly principal of loving one's self. If we could get this straight, if we could be taught this as children, then we could vastly reduce so much mental illness, divorce, suicide, cult participation, poverty, lots of stuff. And once we understand and actually practice self-love to a healthy and genuine degree, then we can love our neighbors AS OURSELVES at the level and fullness that God intended. The results? Ohmygosh ... imagine it !!! Shifra

If Agape means that I have to love the way Jesus did, then count me out. It's those nails being pounded into my hands ... too extreme for this girl.

Jeaniam, You got pretty close to the description of Agape - as I understand it - when you said it was like "loving someone else when there is nothing in it for you". That's the concept of Agape I was thinking about, when I started this thread. If, in fact, there's nothing in it (no benefits) for the person who is doing the Agape'ing, then, at what point is that person giving too much? At what point is that person allowing themself to be used? At what point does Agape become damaging or dangerous to the person performing it? At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self? ... Because when this happens, then the second commandment is violated. The second commandment does NOT say "love your neighbor MORE THAN yourself"; it says AS yourself. "AS" means "the same as" or "equally". Not "more than". Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away! God, on the other hand, He can handle this kind of love. But us earthlings ... well, the ones I know, who have tried to walk the talk of Agape ... have indeed gotten walked ... on. Crushed, to be more specific. Shifra

You know you're in a cult, when you actually believe that another person is speaking for God when he/she tells you you're a piece of sh!t.

T-Bone, I was sitting here, eating breakfast and decided to go back to the computer to add a few thoughts about how TWI ignored the Gospels, because I too think this is related to the Agape issues. I checked the GS thread, and ... wow! ... you had already posted this very thing! I think this would be a great topic for a thread of its own. Wanna start a new topic? And Watered Garden, thanks for the welcome. I've missed all of you. Shifra

I don't think I have explained myself well. Let me try again. Look at Excathedra's list of things that Agape is made of: On the "do" side -- Agape is patient Agape is kind Agape protects Agape trusts Agape hopes Agape perseveres On the "don't do" side -- Agape does not envy Agape does not boast Agape has no pride Agape is not rude Agape is not self-seeking Agape is not easily angered Agape doesn not keep a record of wrongs Now, read the list again, and think about it as a job description for the PERFECT candidate to recruit into a cult. Or think about it as the understood rules within an abusive home. In the context of Corps Training, for example, I personally protected, trusted, hoped, and persevered to the point of insanity! Any pride and self-seeking which I might have had, were stripped from me immediately, and stayed stripped. It is only those victims of TWI abuse who actuallydid keep a record of the wrongs done to them (and reported these to the law), who finally de-throned LCM !!! And think about this: We were all taught that God is our father, and we are his kids. Well, would a loving father have these expectations of his kid? I'm a parent too, and I WANT my kids to seek themselves, to be proud, and to NOT trust every goofball who comes along, or to protect the creeps who are harming them. People who comply in this way ... are just sick. Now, I left a couple of Agape ingredients out of this recipe. The biblical list says that Agape rejoices in the truth, and never fails. These two objectives are the basis of my consideration that maybe we humans can't really do this stuff anyhow, and that Agape is really exclusively a God-thing. Lord knows that if we had truly rejoiced in the truth, we wouldn't have stuck around very long in TWI. Besides, none of us really knows the whole truth, although we keep trying. And ... obviously ... as humans ... we do fail. Otherwise, God wouldn't have sent Jesus to patch us up. So, what I'm saying is that I think Agape has been used as a law and a trap by TWI and others, and when we swallow it hook line and sinker, it's a long trip home. Shifra

I knew you folks would have some views about this. Thanks! I liked your note about Jesus assuming that we already loved ourselves, when he told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, T-Bone. Maybe things were different in that culture, because honestly I don't know of many people who love themselves. Especially Christians. Especially Christians influenced by TWI. It is as though we are to love everyone else FIRST. About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does? Likewise, we are told to turn the other cheek, and to forgive seventy times seven. OK, so if we are loving ourselves as - in the same way as - or - to an equal degree as - our neighbors, then we must forgive ourselves seventy times seven too, right? And if we become our own enemy, we are still supposed to love ourselves, right? Christians don't do that. We read Dr. Phil or get drunk or do confession at the beauty parlor. I believe that we Christians were never taught to love ourselves, so the second commandment is not something we automatically comprehend. This understanding was probably different in Jesus' time. And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad. Shifra

Hello old friends. I have been away from GreaseSpot for awhile, seeking my fortune and dreaming new dreams. (You knew me before as Xena and before that as Schwaigers). I needed to come back to get your input on some thoughts I've had about the concept of "Agape", the messed-up lessons we learned from TWI, and how this relatively small piece of misinformation has impacted all of us. Nice to be home. Xena was an angry warrior woman, and with that identity, I could express my recent divorced self. Not really me. Schwaigers was the married name, under which I would post things without assistance from my other half, even though I made it look like it came from both of us. Also a facade. Shifra is me, the midwife, the mom. You guys know me. Enough preface and re-intro. Here's my latest curiosity: TWI taught us that Agape was "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". Yuk. The rest of the world said it meant "unconditional love". Either way, I am now wondering if Agape is or has ever been HUMANLY possible. I propose that it is a form of love which only God can actually ... do. Sorta comparable to Creation. Could it be that for us to even attempt such love is arrogant and presumptuous? Could it be that making such attempts puts us into the role of a martyr, tolerating and accepting fellow Christians (and others) to the point of damaging or endangering ourselves? To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond. And what about TWI itself? Certainly they did not practice Agape. Any hint of love that they may have offered was totally conditional. But if we are indeed NOT practicing Agape, then are we as Paul writes, nothing more than a "sounding brass or a tinkling cimbal"? Hmmmmmm. Well, brass and cimbals aint so bad. Add a couple of guitars and ya got yourself a good rock band. Talk to me. Shifra

Hi you guys. It's me, Pat. I'm OK. Back on GreaseSpot with a different name, and a different life. All is well. Thanks for the prayers.