Shifra

Dot, Unless you can reconnect with God or Jesus or an angel - like you did when Jesus took you back to see again what happened to you - unless you get an explanation straight from a truly holy source, you will never know WHY these things were allowed to occur. I agree with Dan. Seek out your answer in the same way that you were blessed to revisit the incident. And if this does not come around for you, if you can't reconnect in this way, then you must accept that we don't think the thoughts of God ... Yet He is still all good and all knowing. Shoot, if we did think His thoughts, guess what that would make us. God! I am in awe of your continued love for Him, despite your trauma and despite your questioning. I promise you that you WILL understand someday. If it happens soon, let us know!

OK. I get it. I did the same thing. Sorta. They were liars and we were naive. "Senses Realm" implies inferiority, less-than, beneath. There were other labels like that: "the Natural Man" was one of these. It didn't mean a long-haired, granola eater, like the rest of the world would have interpreted it. It meant a poor ignorant soul who had not accepted VP's program, and would never receive eternal life. Sorry to get off-track here, but language is just so ... powerful. Amazing how two words, "Senses Realm", can bring it all back - that elitist, self righteous, arrogant flavor that TWI emitted on everything. Give me the Senses Realm any day, and I'll show you more Spirit than you can shake a wooden spoon at!

Dot, I have no answers for you. Only a question. Nowadays ... can you be around flannel, look at Kiefer Sutherland, refrain from washing your hands, ignore those smells? Just wondering if by re-living the event ... did it help? I have been guided through some memories by my therapist (not like a movie, though). These were things I never forgot, things I remember clearly, but had not pieced together correctly - like how one event was related to another event. She has helped me to explore how these patterns even went back two or three generations in my family. Now instead of my weird disconnected thoughts of isolated incidents, I see a bigger picture, so it makes some sense to me. It takes away the blame and leaves me with a more peaceful perspective, sad, but peaceful. So ... for me ... it helped. I don't know where God was when you got hurt. I'm sorry this happened to you. When my kids were little and they would ask me hard questions about God, I would tell them to never forget the question, and to ask Him when they meet him someday. Love to you. -Shifra

"Senses Realm"? You must be kidding! Nobody uses that terminology except Way people. 'Haven't heard it for a long time. Just reading it sorta made me sick. I do understand what you're saying, Mr. H: Material, concrete, tangible things ... rather than the unmeasurable stuff. Could it be that one of the Way's errors was their very limited view of how physical and spiritual things can merge and sometimes be the same? Their obsession with DEFINING and DIFFERENTIATING and DIVIDING and PUTTING EVERYTHING INTO A VERY SMALL BOX ... this led to their downfall, for sure. Black-white, right-wrong, godly-devilish, in the Household - marked and avoided. Spiritual - Senses. Don't know about you, but my senses are spiritual.

With all respect intended, I am wondering what the point of this thread is, or its sister thread (about what we learned in PFAL), "practical" or otherwise. Is the purpose of these two discussions to make a statement that TWI was not All bad? Or is it to help ourselves and other readers to put aside the regrets, and not consider the time and money we invested into PFAL ...and the Ministry as a whole... as being such a waste? Or is it to unify those who still value the doctrines of the Way? As I read the various posts, it makes me sad, and after each "benefit" of being in PFAL or TWI which is listed, I find myself responding with: "Yeah, but was it worth it?" -and- "Couldn't we have learned this somewhere else, somewhere safer, somewhere without the bondage?" No offense sent with this post - I love you guys - just wondering.

Maybe it's just a legend, but what I know about Luther is that he put the Bible into a language that the people could understand instead of relying on the religious leaders to tell them what it said. (The ultimate in interpretation of tongues?) Then he realized that the common folk were mostly illiterate, so he took another step and set out to teach them how to read - with a goal of getting them to read the Bible. I like him because he opened up possibilities for people to THINK on their own. He could have used the FOXnews slogan: "We report, you decide".

Oooohhhhh! That's nice! I like it!: "The world conforms us, and God transforms us"! Beautiful! "Liberating" and "Confining" - Well, let's see ... Loving God is liberating / Religion is confining Jesus Christ is liberating / Paul was confining Martin Luther was liberating / Dr. Wierwille was confining And speaking of all of that, why do we say there are only nine manifestations?

Cool. When I was in TWI, sometimes I (secretly) wondered if the language I was speaking - when speaking in tongues - was perhaps a language that I spoke in a past life. Never consulted with leadership about this though. Wonder what they would have said.

Dan, The Meg Ryan clip was funny. Thanks for making me laugh. I had to quickly turn down the volume, since I'm sitting at my office computer, within ear-shot of other people! But ... honestly ... my posts weren't meant to be funny or devilish. I have often thought of the manifestations as "intercourse", in a really wonderful sin-less way. I'm totally serious. Not sure, but maybe this is what C-Man was commenting on. But it's OK. This thread has become more of a weaving, and your video clips sorta tie it all together. Mr. Guess, you are too young to be so wise. You have been around for a long time. Proof of reincarnation. OK, now back to the topic at hand: "Shon-tay-may-looma-von-shan-tay-bonishka" = "Be bold and stand strong in the prevailing blah blah blah".

With the sensual parallel in mind, now look at how TWI perverted the manifestations of Spirit: They intimidated people about "doing it" right. They put it on display at every meeting and function. They encouraged children to participate. They boasted of their own prowess and conquests. They forced us to fake it, or be rejected. It was a form of abuse that is not discussed often, even here at Greasespot. Maybe that's because TWI's other abuses were more obvious. But in the same way that a rape victim suffers the fear and shame and hatred of the rapist, TWI's form of so-called manifestations actually repelled us from God, in fear and shame and hatred. Seems like the analogies are endless. I hope this answers you question, Abi. Just my funky way of looking at things.

Abigail, A true manifestation of the Spirit is an unexplainable creation of a good and pure and beautiful result ... which can only occur when you and God interact in perfect intimacy ... so that for a few magical moments God and you become one and the same. And it feels really good. God plugs in to the human-ness of you and responds with a force which meets the need you have (words of guidance, miraculous turnings of events, absolute healing, permanent riddance of darkness ... whatever). And simultaneously you plug in to God, in pure love, to the level that you feeeeeeeeeeeeel and know and experience God ... in every cell of your "heart, soul, mind and strength". It's sensual and spiritual. Explain how an orgasm works. I have no idea. Explain how a manifestation of the Spirit works. It's even more mysterious, even more beautiful. Sometimes love-making produces intangible goodness, relationships, peace. Sometimes love-making produces brand new people. A genuine manifestation of the Spirit is like that too.

Faking SIT or any other manifestation is like faking an orgasm ... except your lover is God.

It's over. The area where my house is was not touched by fire. It is amazing. They opened up Emerald Hills Tuesday at noon, so that we evacu-ees could return home. There are cops at the three entrances not letting any spectators come up here, and requiring ID from anyone who wants in. Strange. But I appreciate the privacy for awhile. I had to drive through quite a bit of blackened land to get home, but much of it is grassy hillsides, which will green up again next Spring. Seeing the homes that burned just broke my heart. But many homes were spared, and that's incredible. The rest of this area is wooded, and we lost a lot of pines. It's surprising though, how many did not burn, even though the land beneath them is scorched. From my deck I can look in all four directions and see no evidence of fire. When I drove into my driveway, there was a fat rabbit sitting on my front porch, and two twin fawns in my yard. These three critters have been visiting me all summer, so I was glad to know they survived the fire too. Such is life this year, in smoky Montana. But God is so good. Thanks for the prayers.

Thanks for the prayers. They're still not letting us go home. The governor came and toured the area, and FEMA is now involved. So far, nobody has been hurt, and they've even saved all the pets!

This should probably be in the "Prayer Request" section, but most of my GS friends live down here in the "Doctrinal" basement, so I'm posting here. Paw, please leave it here for a couple of days, OK? We have a wildfire here that has forced me and my neighbors (300 homes) to evacuate. I wasn't home when it started, and by the time I arrived, the cops wouldn't let me up the hill to my place. A neighbor of mine rescued my dog, and managed to hook up with me to deliver my "Katie" to me. I am staying at the birth center where I work now, so I'm grateful for my own bed here, but have not heard whether or not my home is still standing. I live in one of those mountain areas, where we all own about 5 acres of pine and sage brush, nice homes out of the city, but still within sight of neighbors. Everyone got out OK, but I'm praying for the deer and fox who live there too. Sure makes ya stop and count your blessings. They won't let us go home this morning, and no word as to when we can. The wind has died down some, so hopefully they'll get it contained soon. Please pray for the fire to go out. It is one of about 30 fires now burning in Montana. I'll keep you posted.

I am so sleepy I'm dozing at the computer. I have delivered several babies in the past few days, and am missing more sleep than I can remember. What day is it, anyhow? But ... I gotta respond here. I recall checking this out a few years ago, and NO WHERE is the word "renew" used as an imperative. We are NOT told to "Renew our minds". We are told to be "transformed" but the passages never assign the word "renew" to a specific subject. Go back and read those verses, and you will see that each one of them can be understood with God as the One doing the renewing. It aint us. We're not that smart. All of those disgusting commands from leadership to "Renew your mind" were not only misinterpretation of scripture, but actually served the opposite purpose that those verses were encouraging us to do. When you think that the Bible is telling us to acknowledge the power of God to shift our mental status, ie to "transform" by way of His power, then you realize that this is totally contrary to some clergyman screaming at you to push yet another religious law further into your brain. It's amazing how messed up all of that was. Geeeez, I wish I wasn't so tired. Two baby boys and a baby girl to blame for this fatigue. Oh, but it was worth it. I want to tell you what I know about the trees. Abigail you wrote about the trees. Well, another day.

Fascinating. It made me think about how I understood God when I was a little girl. Wow. Sometimes I think I understood much more back then.

Roy, that's pretty wild! While I recognize that both SIT and dreams need interpretations, that's about the only thing I see in common between the two. But I'll think some more about it. You sure make us think! AnotherDan, I now only SIT when I am frightened by something - y'know - like when you almost have a car accident, or when you think someone is breaking into your house. For me SIT has become one of those automatic responses to fear, similar to a sweaty palms or a racing heart beat. It is THAT basic and deep in my brain (thanks to TWI). I hate it when I realize I'm doing this. On a conscious level, I don't SIT. I don't believe the Biblical references to SIT are correctly understood, and I think most folks who do it outloud are faking it, and patterning it after whatever denomination's guidelines that they learned it from. I also believe that it is definitely NOT a requirement for salvation, or proof that one is born again.

Just shared the "Surely" video with the ladies in my office. They all say "Thank you, AnotherDan". Very cute.

Wow! We've got a very RED moon, and also the sunsets and sunrises are mostly RED lately, around here. I live in Montana, which is basically on fire right now. We presently are dealing with 27 large fires, totalling 370,510 acres. You can check out http://www.inciweb.org/state/news/27/ to read about it.These fires have been burning for weeks, and quite a few counties including my own have warnings for air quality. Interestingly, this is "Big Sky" country, because of our typically gorgeous blue skies ... but lately it's been brown and grey ... and the sun and moon have appeared to be bright red. Also, I was a bit disappointed a couple of nights ago, because I couldn't watch the predicted meteor shower - because of the smoke! Red moon? Falling stars? Very interesting.

Rascal, What you just posted ... is why so many of us stayed around for so long. What you said here is enormous! We stayed and endured BECAUSE WE THOUGHT THIS WAS GOD'S WILL. I think there's a primitive part of us, in all of us, which tells us we must sacrifice and suffer for God. This is not specific only to Christians, but to many religions, down through history. Our ignorance or denial of God's Solution to this misperception (which of course is Jesus Christ, who suffered so we wouldn't have to) ... our rejection of this Solution is/was based in the distancing that TWI did, when they practically ignored the Gospels and barely touched on any information about Jesus. The focus was elsewhere, such as "Jesus Christ is not God", Mary was not a virgin, the Gospels are part of the Old Testament, etc. These are/were diversions away from any emphasis on the liberation offered by Christ. Had they taught us about Jesus to the degree that they taught us about the manifestations or the devil spirit realm ... we would have recognized our own God-given FREEDOM, and we would have been outathere. But no, we were fed the so-called "Word", which was really the word of the leadership disguised as the Word of God. And they said, "the Word of God is the Will of God". So we just kept on enduring, believing this was how to live in order to show God that we loved Him so very much. And I think God honors this, much the same as He honors other uninformed societies and tribes who cause themselves harm in order to worship Him. But it must make Him very sad. I believe He has shown similar Solutions to these groups, but they continue to suffer for similar reasons, ie manipulation by popes and zen masters and medicine men. In a way, it's sorta comforting to understand that we were in a cult, NOT because we were stupid or naive or weak, but rather because our love for God was so strong. On the other hand, it makes me wonder about how the intangible and unmeasurable nature of spirituality can be twisted by immoral men into such a very tangible and measurable TRAP. Anyhow, thanks, Rascal. Your post was a big lightbulb above my head today - y'know - one of those things that I already knew, but it just never clicked before.

As soon as I started reading this thread, I thought of the day my family was banished from the Indiana Campus. Some of you already know the events that followed that day, ugly stuff, so I won't go there right now. But the concept of taking God's name in vain ... and this being a form of abuse ... well, that's totally accurate in describing what happened to me as an individual, that day. To keep it brief, the MOG or "mosquito of God" (so you will know who I'm referring to) called me and my husband into his office, where none of us sat down, but simply stood there, waiting. He turned his back and paced a bit. I always thought he was pretending to be Jesus, drawing a line in the sand, as the story goes. And then he turned and faced us, and said (to ME): "God has shown me that you are a self-willed bitch, and that you are contaminating the others here". He went on to inform my husband that he should divorce me, keep the kids, and stay there in Rome City. But this never happened. we left, as a family. What DID happen was that for days and weeks and months, I questioned whether this was all true. Despite my utter hatred for this man, I was programmed strongly enough to believe that he spoke for God, that it was nearly impossible to let go of this notion. I'm really OK now, and don't mean to play the victim, at this point in my life. But at the time ... I actually believed that God had rejected me. I remember returning to our room, to "pack our things fast", because he had ordered us to be off the property by nightfall. But all I could do was just crawl under the old chipped sink that stuck out from one wall of our room, and sit there hugging my knees, and rocking back and forth like a scared little kid. I had known since I was a child that God loved me, and I had prayed my requests and my thanks to him every day of my life, but after "Reverend" Mosquito's revelation ... FROM GOD ... it was like there was no God anymore ... and I was all alone. Of course it was all bull sh!t It was the ultimate in taking God's name in vain. And it was abuse.

Keep a notepad at your bedside or in your bathroom, and write down a few words as soon as you wake up, to remind you of your dream later in the day. When my youngest child (now age 23) was little, he would come to the breakfast table with incredible verbal descriptions of his dreams. I told him to write them down, so he could make them into movies when he grew up. He actually had a "Dream Book", which began with childish letters and pictures, and evolved into a more sophisticated journal of dreams as he got older. He lost his Dream Book when we were in residence at the Indiana Campus. Seems appropriate.

Wow! I never heard that story before.

Both.