brideofjc

Sure he is Jonny! Haven't you read Psalms? "I poured out my complaint before the Lord..." "I cried unto the Lord and He hear me."

T-Bone when you write, you really write! Interesting thread…I used to believe in a threefold composition of man [body, soul & spirit – a trichotomist view] – but now lean toward a twofold model [body & soul – a dichotomist view], in keeping with the Hebrew thought of seeing the unity of God's creation. Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground [material] and gave him the breath of life [immaterial] - man became a living soul. And yet, one must deal with the Apostle Paul's writing and who I believe was led by the Holy Spirit when he wrote 1 Th 5:23 and one could argue the point in the differences between Hebraic and Greek theological systems, but Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and would have been very familiar with what today we call the dichotimist view and he would also have been very familiar with the trichotomist viewpoint as well since his family was part of the diaspora and so Paul was Hellenized. Yet when he wrote Thess, he could have chose to introduce Hebraic thoughts on the subject, yet the HS led him to pen the Tri view. On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit [man being made in his image] and on the basis of such passages as Hebrews 12:23 and Revelation 6:9-11… But what exactly is that "union"? I do not believe that Elwell means it to be the one and the same. But the union occurs because the spirit of man had entered into the flesh thus producing the soul of mankind. Because if humankind is made in the image of God, as listed above, "pure spirit", then it must needs be that there is also a "spirit" inside of mankind. Thus 1 Th 5:23 holds true. What two parts united to form the soul? Was it not spirit entering into the flesh? Therefore, it should be noted that body and soul cannot be the same because one came first and then the other. I would also add that the writers of the first testament didn't have all of the pieces, but had to wait for the fulfilling of the Scripture and the coming of the Savior. It was at Pentecost that re-introduced the HS to humankind and then the understanding that humans were really three part beings. Just like even now we also, although we have a fuller revelation than what Isaiah or Jeremiah had, we also are still looking through darkened glass at the concepts of eternity. I am sure we will all be thrilled when the full revelation is finally understood. Blessings.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ok either this is the last trump or the last trump is not what we think it is Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. o no here another trump after the last so either we each have our own last trump making God's Word more personal or Revelation 1:10 was not the last trump Hey, Roy....these verses contain a figure of speech called "simile" which means that the key words that mark it off are either "like" or "as", and it is describing or modifying that which goes before. "and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," and "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;" This merely describes how the great voice sounded, Roy. It does in no way state that it is the last trump. Blessings

Roy, I think if you read what I wrote it is apparent that by "going back to what it was" implied being a dead soul. but talking about the bible being simple you have not deal with the open graves of Matthew 27:52-53 I will not deal with this. My choice, Roy. You can't make me. (Hint>Forgery?)nor have you show us what the last trump is Forgery? Does this come forth from RachelWorld? My Greek NT has what is called a "Textual Apparatus" which is a series of scholarly notes of various translational readings, listing them according to Papyrii number, lists Lectionary notes, highlights differences such as choice of Greek words in the variant mss, etc. It does list Mt. 27:52-53, and that it concurs with Ezek. 37:12. So then you must be prepared to concur that Ezek 37:12 is also a forgery as well. In the Greek text proper above, it does not put brackets around these verses to indicate a "traditional rendering" and therefore, the scholars seem to concur that it is a valid verse. Did this come forth from WayWorld. VeePee seemed very breezy as well as when he didn't like certain verses of Scripture, he was all too free in claiming it was a forgery as well. If your idea has come forth from Wrongsville, Rachel, you should be scared...I mean really scared. If you are being led by the Holy Spirit, He should be taking you to the point that you will concur with the vast majority of other scholars. It is when we end up by ourselves with the lone translation that we should look around and wonder how we got there. If, however, you can cite other scholary opinions on the subject of these verses being a forgery, I will be happy to link to wherever you find it. Otherwise, dear sister, you are out there all by yourself. Please look around and realize you are standing alone.

RachelWorld? Shouldn't it be GodWorld? Who are you anyway? Shall the clay tell the potter...? Dear Sister, I have! You need to read and reread 1 Thess 5:23 there are three components to humans...I didn't write it, but the Holy Spirit did. Shouldn't it be self-evident that your thinking should line up with what the bible says and not that which comes forth from RachelWorld?

Rachel, you're a real card. But be careful, someone else may have the ace up their sleeve and TRUMP you! LOL. You made me laugh [with you, not at you] with your last paragraph because that was exactly where I was headed. But and however...there is always one or more of these. Look at the wording in 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which (Spirit) [,] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (semi-colon) Which [better translated as "who"] sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The text does not state that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison during the days of Noah. The text states that "the spirits (who are now in prison) were disobedient during the days of Noah, which is why they didn't make the boat on time. LOL. So Rachel, how if as you state...the dead know nothing....could Jesus (by the Spirit) go and PREACH (now that takes some thought action) to spirits who were in prison. How did they hear if they know nothing? Dear sister, your confusion lies in the fact that you are not separating body and soul. To call a human being a "living soul or a dead soul" is what I would call using a colloquialism. The people of past eras who tried to be biblical, sometimes wanted to speak like the Bible spoke...and so they adopted some of the phrases such as from the account in Acts and Paul's shipwreck, where the text states that all 116 SOULS stayed alive. They stayed alive (so to speak) because the body did not perish by drowning and therefore the SPIRIT didn't leave the vessel that it was housed inside of. Oft times, when a phrase is adopted, after some time has passed, the origins become dim and the phrase begins to take on other meanings that were never intended. This is one of them I do believe. You are making them one and the same and therefore when the body dies, you are equating that the soul is dead. In a way, you are right in that the soul is no longer evident because the flesh is now dead. In the first place the body is merely a vessel that carries the important things, i.e. our spirit which is what formed our SOULS in the first place. Another aspect one can look at is OUR SOUL is the physical expression of OUR SPIRIT. You cannot see your spirit, but you can see and hear the manifestation of said same by listening to yourself or other's souls. When the vessel that is carrying our spirit dies, the spirit leaves and of necessity one can say that the SOUL DIED. The manifestation of our spirit DIED, or left the immediacy of the earthly realms, but since the SPIRIT is eternal, the soul doesn't really die either. Because if you could have the power to inject that spirit into another piece of flesh... guess what? The flesh would come alive and VOILA! a manifestation of SOUL would become evident. This is why when God, who is SPIRIT, breathed into....Adam...HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God, who has the power to inject spirit into a hunk of flesh, breathed into that piece of flesh that we later came to know as Adam and then the SPIRIT became manifest or evident as SOUL and we called that SOUL, ADAM! Conversely, when ADAM BREATHED (spirit) his last breath, the manifestation of his spirit (that is SOUL) LEFT when the SPIRIT left. It left the vessel lying dead on the bed and which was then buried back into the earth from which it came and soon melted back into the earth. Rachel, this is by no means a judgment of you, nor of any others nor even of myself. But I would highly recommend taking at least a beginners Greek class. Sad to say, maybe because of the dumbing down of America...most people do not understand even their own language. I know I didn't. I thought I did until I began to take Greek class in Bible college. THEN WERE MY EYES OPENED! lol I then of all things began to understand and appreciate my own language and understanding the parts of it, by learning another more complicated and highly inflected language, i.e. Greek. [Wikipedia: A colon may also be used for the following: introduction of a definition. In English, the semicolon has two main purposes: It binds two sentences more closely than they would be if separated by a full stop/period. It often replaces a conjunction such as and or but. Writers might consider this appropriate where they are trying to indicate a close relationship between two sentences, or a 'run-on' in meaning from one to the next; they might not want the connection to be broken by the abrupt use of a full stop. It is used as a stronger division than a comma to make meaning clear in a sentence where commas are being used for other purposes. A common example of this use is to separate the items of a list when some of the items themselves contain commas.] A colloquialism is an expression not used in formal speech, writing or paralinguistics. Colloquialims denote a manner of speaking or writing that is characteristic of familiar "common" conversation; informal colloquialisms can include words (such as "y'all", "gonna" or "grouty"), phrases (such as "ain't nothin'", "dressed for bear" and "dead as a doornail"), or sometimes even an entire aphorism. ("There's more than one way to skin a cat"). Dictionaries often display colloquial words and phrases with the abbreviation colloq. Colloquialisms are often used primarily within a limited geographical area.]

Soul is not body...even the Scripture that Paul wrote of when he was saved along with 116 souls or so. Soul is what makes us who we are, or basically our personalities, which is why there isn't anyone else just like you, so it is not the body that makes alive the soul. Again, when God breathed into Adam or the hunk of hamburger or chunk of clay that God had just formed, it was the entrance of God's Spirit that made Adam jump up and say, Hallelujah! Geez Dad, I'm hungry! LOL The spirit of man remained even after the fall, what died that day was the lost connectivity to the Holy Spirit of God. I also do not believe that we will be floating around on clouds strumming our harps...I mean...how God Awful boring. After all, the God of all the Universe....when I see His handiwork in the millions of different buggies and they each have their own unique habitat...I think that God will be able to make a heaven for us right here on earth. In fact, this is what I believe that Heaven and Earth will become one...no longer will there be a separation between the two and we will be able to pass through if you will, even as Jesus suddenly appeared to His Disciples, yet He was also able to eat food and to be touched and obviously He felt real to His disciples, because at the first they thought He was a ghostly apparition. Otherwise, if indeed it is not upon this earth, why bring up that He will make rulers over 5 cities or of 10? Does Heaven need any other ruler but God?

All I know is I remember all too well when I was working towards my Master's degree that I received an email from a degree mill wanting me to take their classes....and I was so stressed out writing my thesis papers that I actually brought it up at class one day...because quite honestly I didn't know such things existed. I really need to get out more, I guess. And the Doctorate from Scotland looked at me and said..."Are you depressed or something?" I had to laugh. But if only he knew....

I believe there is....from NHU, that is...NutandHoney Univ.

"Aaahhhhh! Nothing like getting home from a long day at the workplace and get to bask in the wit and wisdom of the GScafe." Thanks for the laughs, I needed that.

It's not about finding a dead person to see what they have to say about it. There isn't any question that the body is dead and therefore the brains cells have decayed and so logically speaking the person doesn't have the capability to retain or remember anything physically such as how to tie your shoes, etc. 1 Thess 5:23 Paul clearly demarcated that there were three components to the human person, namely: spirit, soul and body. It is when we do not observe such distinctions that we find ourselves wading through questions. Does the body die? yes. Does the spirit live eternally? yes. I believe that whether you believe in Jesus or not, your spirit is eternal and you are merely deciding on which place you will live in for all eternity. Now about that tricky thing we call soul. The Scriptures for me are clear and that it says that when God breathed into Adam, he BECAME a living SOUL. So it is when we die, we become a dead soul. So where does the soul go to? I believe it is our soul that will be judged. Our spirits were made alive when we chose Christ to be our Savior. The flesh will one day be resurrected. A good way to think about it is this: I am saved (spirit); I am being saved (soul) and I will be saved (body).

When I read Eccl 9:5, I used to espouse what TWI said, but no more....it doesn't say that THEIR memory is forgotten, but the memory OF THEM is forgotten. I occasionally still remember my Grandfather, but he's been dead now for 33 years and I know that once I die my daughter will not think about him other than a name in a family Bible. Why? Because he died before my daughter was born. and then look at Ps 6:5....in death there is no remembrance of thee (: colon) in the grave who shall give THEE thanks? The remembrance is of God and the next clause verifies that the writer is thinking of the Lord for he then says "give thee thanks?" I personally would like to think that when I die, I will be awake and in the presence of the Lord. When the Bible speaks of people who have died as being asleep....it might be only talking about "resting in the Lord" and not a literal sleep or unconscienceness.

Why don't you just OUT with it and tell us what YOU REALLY THINK? Some comments from you in conjunction to the thread title might be extremely helpful.

Many laughs, Jeff....I seem to remember...but don't quote me....that while we think that the KJV seems to have Shakespearean type language is because it was the common folk who spoke that way. The well educated did not, at least I think I remember hearing one of my professors give this anecdote. Today, we read it and imagine that the kings and queens spoke this way and they did not. Some of the apocryphal books are strange, but they are written in apocalyptical fashion even as the genre of Revelation, so one has to be careful to not take it literally. Probably one of my favorites, is probably the Book of Enoch. This gives some rather neat insights into the creation of the world and the Watchers that were put here by God. It was probably these Watchers (angels) who were probably the ones written about in Jude who left their first estate and cohabited with the daughters of men and thus the Nephalim came into being. When the world became so wicked that God sent the flood, the Nephalim were spiritual B astards and so when they drowned they could neither go to heaven, their fathers' dwelling place, nor could they go to hell or Hades, the abode of the dead because of their physical parentage, i.e. their mothers. Therefore, it is thought that these then became what today we call demons. They are stuck in a quasi-state probably until the final judgment when God will make the final call. Blessings.

The people that sat over the process of establishing the canon, I believe did their best with what they had at the time. I believe that our God did watch over the choices that were made. But is God through? No, look at the other findings of papyrii that keep coming up over time. If the same board or even another canonical board were to be established after all of the more modern finds, I wonder what today would be included in our Bible?? The KJV is not perfect, although if you told this to a fundamentalist, you'd better have a 50 foot running head start I once said that there were better versions than KJV and there was just such a fundamentalist in the group....well, let me tell you...he got red faced, blew up and said that the KJV was the veritable writ of God....you could almost see the pages in his Bible smoking from the finger of God having touched them. I tried to inform him that the translators had done their best for 1611 and everything that they had at the time...but alas....no use. Needless to say, we didn't get off to a really good start. The extra-canonical writings are an excellent source of knowledge, but again, it should be approached with caution and realize that they were rejected from being in the canon for a reason. It would be best to find info about them on the internet about the books you wish to read and to see why they were rejected and then read them. You won't go to hell if you read them as some people believe. Bruce Metzger is also the editor of the 4th rev. ed of the "The Greek New Testament" which I keep on hand at all times.

You won't find "doulos" in the OT because it is a Greek word. You will have to look in the LXX if you want to find that particular Greek word. Blessings.

I do believe that that class, which I took, and it was sort of embarrassing to sit there, was really VPW's attempt to open up people to spirits of lust so that he could continue to have his way with whoever. While marital sex is not embarrassing or shameful, I do not think any "ministry" should have such a class in the first place. If a couple needs help in that area there are plenty of other resources that a couple can share privately. Just my thoughts this morning.

In by midnight? Yeah, I remember. Went WOW in 1982 and had always wanted to see Jerry E. Lewis perform, but had to leave promptly in time to fulfill that silly rule (no exceptions) and so missed most of his concert. Oh, and yes had to get permission to see my own Grandmother when she was just a few miles away at the PTL club. OMG, sometimes I can't believe I actually did those things. And now that I remember....having to hang the pictures....just so....cuz it might warp your mind to look at a picture that was off a mm or 2....LOL And if you made a mistake???? We won't go there. Oh, well, why not....I had believed big time to be sent to sunny California for my WOW year...but when I opened the envelope....North Carolina????? Naaawwww! But then....received a letter from this woman. "Dear Daughter....How do like San Diego????....Love Mom!" Apparently, that year there were two women with the same name and they switched cards....Now that was REAL SPIRITUAL! So they sent a family WOW to a single family and what do you want to bet, the other woman was "SINGLE and got sent to a family WOW home. Then later they must of realized that they mis-filed the cards and so sent the other woman's mail to me, where she was probably believing to be sent and couldn't understand why the Lord sent her to sunny California. Probably hated California, too. When I left I stopped tithing....AND OMG, I ACTUALLY COULD AFFORD RENT WHERE IIIIII WANTED TO LIVE. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? Also, I let my place get sooooooo messssssyyyyyy...and if anyone said anything???? I told them it was THERAPEUTIC! Reverse brain washing. My My, the looks on their faces.

Home is where the heart is...and our Home is to be in Heaven with the Lord Christ... What you thought was home, was just a depot on the journey of life. Blessings.

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are labourers together with God; ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any many build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any mans work abide which he hath build thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. IMO, this is where VP went wrong. He may have started out with correct blueprints from the Lord Jesus Christ, but then he turned his back on the Lord Jesus and relegated the King to mothballs and so lost the accurate blueprints and was left only with scribbles in the sand, but continued to build upon the sand... AND NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY! Just so that no one accuses me of plagiarism....above quote from Paul Harvey.

Mark... I have never asked you...are you a priest? Or just a well informed adherent?

You're not that fuzzy and far off. That's because it was drilled into us that to OPEN your mind or let down your free will would expose you to every demon from the pip squeaks to the really big bad boys. Submission is good! The one thing that I came to understand finally about VP was that he was in full out and out rebellion to the Lord. He masked it well and sugar coated it for us, but that is why he taught never to surrender your free will. How devilish indeed. He was always warning everyone about demons, but he should have looked under his own doormat and got rid of the squatters there first.

It is interesting to note that in John 8:37ff "If the Son makes you free....(free from being in bondage to sins) ye shall be free indeed" Because whoever commits sin is the servant of it. But then Jesus tell them that He knows that they are Abraham's direct lineage, however, because they were thinking murderous thoughts in their hearts, just as Cain thought of murder in his heart at first as well. Jesus speaks of the devil as being a murderer from the very beginning. I think this very beginning was with Adam and Eve and not Cain, which is why Cain inherited the iniquity of murder from his parents. It is also interesting to read in v38... "I speak that which I have seen with MY father..." You DO that which ye have sen with your Father" Why did they want to kill Him? Because He had told them the truth and they believed Him not. So therefore, they were of their father the devil because he was a murdered from the beginning and a LIAR and couldn't hear the Words of God." This particular verse doesn't directly speak of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which in Greek to blaspheme means: "to defame, revile, slander; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme." However, in Matt 12 and Luke 12, it does speak directly about blaspheming the HS. The text is clear that if anyone speaks against Jesus, it will be forgiven if the person asks for it later. However, to speak against the HS and I would guess that it would be about His workings, His leadings etc. Look at the following verse....varry interesting....the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say. It does make you wonder if you are taught by the HS to speak a certain thing and you refuse or you directly contradict it, if that isn't what it really is. Because if you directly contradict...are you not in essence calling the HS a liar? Even more interesting is the record in Matt 12 that Jesus was telling them that he was casting out demons by the SPIRIT OF GOD, i.e. HS. Could it also have an element of calling the workings of the HS the works of the devil? Or perhaps trying to cast demons out with some other spirit, fooling the onlookers etc.