chockfull

IMO that is by design. With the amount of micromanagement and control they are exhibiting it is clear that they want the most compliant of sheep. They definitely don't want anyone involved that is a free thinker and expressive. They want obedience, compliance. No questions. No "suggestions". No individual research to deal with. Followers that nod the head, do what they are told including cutting off communication with those outside of favor, string chairs at meetings happily, and send in their ABS check. They persecute and run off anyone with a voice. They want Stepford wives as followers. Other types they will give that colonoscopy to. Also, this is masked in sugar-coated terms. In today's TWI, when someone talks about "unity" or "the one body" or "we function as a household" within TWI, this is what they are talking about. They are brain-washed jargon terms, not genuine Biblical terms of how they function. True unity has its basis in love, not fear or paranoia or the lust for control or micromanagement.

Can a zebra change its stripes? If you wanted to do what you are discussing you'd have to write TWI, and be subject to a scrutinization period by a local leader, likely while being on "probation". There would be rules regarding contact and interaction with TWI members. IF they approved, then you could attend a STS at TWI, but likely with reports traveling back and forth between local and TWI on your "status". And people would be monitoring you, looking for your conversations, etc. No, Rosalie is as bad or worse on ANY of that stuff. The problem with trying to have friendships there, speaking of things we agree on, friendly discussions or debates on issues of biblical concern is that they will not be honest with you. There will ABSOLUTELY be another side conversation with a leader regarding ANY conversation, and it will be surrounding how possessed or not you are after being "out of the ministry" for whatever time period. And people won't be real with you - they will be in that mode.

newlife, they did "WOW placements". how? 1) determine numbers 2) determine WOW cities (from strategy, Limb coords lobbying, etc.) 3) interviews (where they would make a recommendation where to send, like "East Coast" for a west coast lifer, etc). 4) placement meetings - put together people in families, etc. 5) finalize I've heard some tales in placement meetings about flipping coins or darts or something, but mostly just sorting piles out....

I can't even get my mind to focus on this for more than about 5 seconds. What a waste of my life that was. But I'm sure I'm now overqualified to manage the Girl Scout bake sale.

Maybe eventually they can get how they operate efficient enough that they all can fit in Rosalie's pool.

WG what a nightmare. Totally toxic environment. No wonder they turned out such monstrosities.

I don't know, healing and rebuilding? That may take a while....

john, I hope you will think about one thing. if clear evidence is brought up about geer, and your knee-jerk reaction is to discount it as a "witch hunt", and then not review the evidence and try to be somewhat objective about it, do you think honestly that what your mind is going through represents a healthy and balanced response? Do you really think that doesn't represent cult think? In TWI we all threw around the ideas of devil spirits. Leadership would commonly label someone as possessed when they were not just to shut down anyone considering the validity of their point. Like the adultery paper and Schoenheit. Geer was the king of this. He labeled more people as possessed than anyone I ever saw. A radio with a low call-sign ID number and a reputation where everyone was afraid of him because of the extremity of his antics?

I would go more with Ralph and Bobby experiencing a genuine teenage #BreakingAmish moment. Continual repression seeks a relief valve. I'm sure there's plenty more of those that we haven't heard about, with those two and others. Chalk it up to #WhatACultDoesToYourKids That they are a whole lot more normal than their Pharisee parents? Kids have a built-in BS detector.

If you really want the point by point, John Juedes has a pretty good analysis: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_geerclone.htm "While it doesn't appear that Geer actually copies Wierwille's PFAL book word for word, WIGP reproduces almost all of Wierwille's class, topic by topic. WIGP is PFAL piracy." Those arguments are factual, not hollow. They also cover what Geer is doing now, not just controversy over the POOP paper. Which just to fit in one more point about that paper - I've read tons of autobiographies by people with big egos. I've never seen anyone stroke themselves anywhere near as much and with as big an ego as Geer did in that paper. That's the true inner workings of someone's mind. That is not going to change after 27 years - he may tone it down, but you will see that ego come out if the guy's confronted, and how he answers criticism.

Well, after reading Chris Geer's paper on "Passing of the Patriarch", it most certainly was ALL about Wierwille for Chris. Even all his books he published under the "edited posthumously" editor tag - they were certainly all about Wierwille. It's pretty intellectually dishonest to not recognize Geer's connection to Wierwille. So you find yourself once again trying to genuinely worship God while still under the authority of a guy whose Wierwille worship has visible evidence of being far beyond what any rational human being would have for another man. And yet somehow this is just the individual and God again? Sorry. Not buying it. You're changing one cult for another.

I think they should just drop the subterfuge and put together classes to train people how they really live. A new FNC, INT, ADV classes on "How to Be A Pharisee". I mean that way, rather than having to waste all that time sidetracking with teachings and classes that present their public image, they can get right down to what they do best and how they live and train people to do it.

I kind of think that the splinter group founders and people have not "moved beyond Wierwille". They want to be Wierwille, at least on a smaller scale.

Once you see the little man unmasked who was running the Wizard of Oz scam, it's kind of inevitable that you move beyond Wierwille. Although some refused to look at the unmasking, preferring to retain their old image.

Oh, we were pimping ourselves out like 3 dollar hookers to get people into those classes. Regardless of whatever actions we were taking.

To me marketing in a business sense is segmenting the overall population into a small group to the point where a business' expertise most directly meets the needs of that segmented group. The dichotomy to me is that Christianity is for the overall population, not just a segment - a gift given freely. Yet churches are man-made organizations that have a need to segment the overall population to reach members who will join thus increasing the church's numbers and bring in money. The big business of Christianity gets in the way of the genuine message and reach of Christianity.

If God didn't work in situations to help us even while we were caught up in a cult, then all of our lives would be nothing but a wasteland of lost time, money, and opportunity. It's all hard to make sense of because it's incongruent. Here you have VPW with some sage advice. Later on that day, VPW very well could have been having sex with a young lady other than his wife on his motorcoach. Or plagiarizing someone's work. Men are incongruent. God is not.

You know Steve, what's inspiring to me about this is your decision to put in the work and develop a voice. The route of publishing a thesis will hone that voice. I don't think you can skip that work. Too bad VPW didn't learn that lesson at a young age. So congratulations on this. It is inspiring.

The problem with bored billionaires (like for example Bill Gates) is that they still have the same acumen that they used in business to make the billion now that they are dedicated to philanthropy. So they are pretty adept at weeding out the hucksters. So if John Lynn wants Bill Gates money, then all he has to do is convince the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the selection committee there that giving money to John is a better idea than say, giving it to AIDS research to help end the epidemic in Africa. In other words, it looks like John Lynn is now on his 3rd failed or failing business model. But on the other hand Tzaia, your method of knowing people by their fruit seems pretty sound. :)

So to market Christianity we need the flaming demise of individual morality and plastic people presenting a false front? I say the opposite. Christianity and big business have opposing goals. True Christianity is at a personal level. It's a gift meant to be given freely and accepted freely, not a means to enrich a man's coffers or provide him with a legacy. It's the avarice of man at issue here, not the grace of God.

Haha - Ham you know the answer to this one from wayspeak. "The secret to his success was the secrecy of his moves"

And yet somehow in TWI it always comes around to the leadership never admitting they sin, and the cover-up of apparent sin, all along with the abusive judgment of those under their authority. It kind of reminds me of the parable of the unjust ruler. Except in the end of that parable justice is served, yet in TWI somehow the abusers continue to remain in power and the blind do nothing about it. And this is a perfect example of a cult mind-set and how abuse begins. You are evaluating a man not based upon Christianity, but rather on his proximity to the cult. "Gone for a long time, and only recently returned, with much to assimilate". What does that have to do with anything? And yet you and the leadership in charge have already discussed this and labeled the man. Why would you not come from the perspective that someone who has been "gone for a long time" is actually living an equally Christ-like lifestyle to you who "have remained"????? "Much to assimilate?" Only if you are talking about making sense of the sinful behavior of the 3 Presidents of TWI and why you should remain under the latest's authority. Not much else to assimilate other than that. I agree with you. Perhaps this is the problem - that TWI is not a godly organization. The behavior of those in power is self-serving rather than Christ-serving. So Biblical leadership principles are twisted around the politics of the paranoid few in power rather than truly being Christ-centered.

The parallel of the evil functioning in the leadership of TWI, and that being an old wineskin, seems to be lost on you.... The point for you is that with you continuing on under the functioning evil of the authority of TWI and its leadership, that "it" will NOT get replaced with new wine in new vessels. You are still experiencing the old wine, the old wineskin, the old bag that makes the wine, as well as some severe masochistic tendencies to return to an organization that has kicked you out 3 times. Unfortunately, that is not a parable. And the 4th time around, you have idolatry and wierwille worship right up front. And yet still you return to the self-flogging of participation in TWI. As for me, I choose to fellowship with those whose most spiritual moment was not when a drunken lecherous plagiarist walked by and touched their shoulder.

Well, you know what they say. Those that can do, do. Those that can't teach. Those that can't teach well start a cult to redefine what teaching well is.

And why would the congregating of Pharisees require anything less?