chockfull

Because while VPW was a charismatic leader and could sweet talk his way out of just about anything. LCM was not and could not. He was a "leader" by position, not by calling. That's why he simply got rid of anyone who wasn't "loyal" to him. I'm sure it was hard for him to realize that the people's loyalty to VPW did not translate to him.

And RFR, having the charisma of a band-aid and a little bit how do you say, butchy, also leads by control based upon position. Smile to the face, knife to the back, move the body off the property. In all of these cases why does anyone listen?

Like JAL. Who hasn't yet realized his leadership ability went out with the hair bands in the early 80's.

For a little lighter perspective on the definition of a cult, I was watching Dana Carvey's latest comedy stand-up routine the other day. I believe it's entitled "Squatting Monkeys Tell No Lies". Which the title is a portion of a really out there mind journey he takes trying to define a religion that a Scientologist would say "now that's out there!!!". He brings in all sorts of strange and controlling behavior with weird quirks into this "cult". And honestly, after watching it, there was a part of me that said "did I believe anything that was THAT out there????? Naaaah, couldn't be." And then I walked away while sinking back slowly into denial.

With all due respect to those who disagree with me, I for one don't buy the "Satanic blindness" explanation. We were fooled, blinded if you will, because we didn't know enough about the bible to be able to discern truth from error in the words of our teacher. We were dazzled by the arrogance disguised as confidence, because we didn't know any better. Once hooked, it became harder and harder to get out. No Satan needed to explain what happened to us.

I guess you could look at that like God is voting for you, Satan is voting against you, your vote is the tiebreaker. Even talking in terms of God / Satan, that doesn't remove personal accountability. That would actually be pretty much what you're getting at, talking about it in different terms.

I've seen enough of this touched on in other threads in this forum and others that I felt the urge to start a current discussion on the elephant in the room. Here's some questions related:

1. What is your understanding of the Trinity?

2. Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

3. If one does not believe in the Trinity do they believe in "another Jesus"?

4. Where is VPW's JCNG book accurate / inaccurate?

5. What turns have your beliefs taken w/r to theTrinity surrounding your involvement in TWI, in and out?

This is not really a debateable issue. It is how the church defines a cult. It is not how the church defines groups such as the 'emergent church" or those who follow after the "health and wealth" gospel. Catholics, Jews, Islam, are all religions. There is correct terminology to define these differences. I suppose one could readily say Islam is a cult. In fact, I have heard this said, but they do not claim to be Christian. Jews either.

A cult can be defined in many ways, by many people. For the church, the primary is "Who" they say Jesus is. Which is why the church always defines The Way as a cult.

Not really much to argue.

So let me get this straight. Because the "church" has a definition, it is right? How is that any different than following a man like in TWI? Because it's a group of men and/or women? Which specific group of men and women are we discussing? Actually, from my interaction in denomonations / non-denominational churches / Christian groups, while in VPW's day the trinity seemed to be more of the dividing line with what defines a cult, more modernly the view I've seen is more of like Oakspear is getting at - looking at thier practices. And actually, if you want a Biblical approach to it (NIV, NAS, KJV, RSV, whatever choice you want), Jesus taught himself "by their fruit you will know them". So the modern viewpoint is more Biblically sound. Take the Catholic church for example. Not a cult - old definition. They uphold the trinity. However, look at their practices. Priests and alter boys, all sorts of shenanigans, very heavy-handed dogma, praying to Mary, a saint a day, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the structure there actually prevented people from being born again in many cases - of course that's an individual thing. In practice are they a cult? You could make a case for that.

Many of us sought after TWI initially because of the bigotry, hypocrisy, closed-mindedness, and lack of genuine Biblical research that was present in "the church". The fruit we saw there was certainly not of a Christian caliber. So we immersed ourselves in the Word, fellowship, and saw many signs, miracles, and wonders in our own lives. Most of that apparantly was in spite of much of the corruption happening in TWI leaders lives. Eventually that fruit turned sour as well. So here we are.

Satanic blindness hides behind labels. God, however, looks upon a man or woman's heart.

your example of one child being a victim, we are NOT to remain stupid and child-like in our understanding of God.

So you are saying we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves? I would agree. That would include areas like forgiveness and vengeance.

Good discussion, pond.

God does want us ignorant we are to study and pray and seek Him. God is with us Jesus has sent a comforterto guide us we are not left alone in this dark cold world to fend off behaviours that are not Godly .

but vengence belongs to the LORD clearly he is the King of Kings who can decide what Justice must be done, not us we do see things darkly today and that is exactly why the Lord says vengence belongs only to Him and commands us to love and serve oneanother.

Vengeance does belong to the Lord. Yet when you look at that topic in the Bible it does deal with it. OT Law - avenging a death was lawful, there were even safe cities for someone to flee to for protection. Jesus forgave his enemies and instructed us to do the same.

Yet when you look at setting up healthy systems on earth, there can be twisted applications of the vengeance verse too. For example, the Allen lawsuit. Vengeance is the Lords, yet a man consulted a lawyer and filed papers in a courthouse seeking damages. That could be considered taking vengeance. Yet it produced a healthy outcome in toppling a perverted predator. I've certainly heard TWI application of the vengeance verse discouraging people from taking action where common laws of the land could curtail behavior when people's moral conscience does not.

People with no boundaries interpret the vengeance verse to mean they should not take any action to protect themselves.

People with boundaries understand that vengeance belonging to the Lord means He will make right whatever has not been able to be set right.

how does the Lord forgive?

as far as the east is from the west.

that is the standard Jesus set .

how an individual who claims Jesus is Lord forgives depends on his ability to follow Jesus's commandment to forgive somone 70X 7 times.

I can see this functionally carried out in a marriage. There is a healthy blend of accountability and this level of forgiveness.

If you believe vpw "belongs to the church" as you say that means he will be in the kingdom and be healed at the throne of Jesus and we are to forgive him as Jesus did.

the church is the body of christ .

no not at all scary not at all it is the most beautiful gift Jesus ever paid for me and you and vpw.

The body of Christ does sin indeed given in this day we have choices and two natures to chose from that is why we can ask forgivness and receive it as the power of the risen christ grants us all such priviledge.

is that scary to you? I know you do not like it lol

This topic of forgiveness is truly a precarious one. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" of the mob assenting to his death. Yet what of those that do know what they do? Many times I've heard TWI leadership in very high places sluff off their atrocities with explanations like "I didn't know I was hurting anyone". Or they blame that people are hurt on the people, when they are the ones that hurt them. It's quite an exercise in dysfunctionality, twisting scriptures, and the true governer for life being politics. Functionally more like the Pharisees.

When Jesus Christ comes back, all will be made right, healed, and we'll see clearly not darkly as if through a glass. In that, the scriptures can't be broken. People have to reap what they sow, or God is mocked. So in addition to being healed at the throne of Jesus, there will have to be some form of justice. Works being burned like stubble I guess are one form of that. But I've also heard TWI interpretation of that stuff saying to people that are hurt and wanting some form of justice that at the return people are only rewarded for their good works, so get over their bitterness.

In love and forgiveness there has to be a form of accountability. Even with children, making them apologize to each other specifically for wrongs is a form of accountability that can allow forgiveness between people. If you have 2 children, and one never has to apologize to the other, and the other is always being told to forgive, one will grow up an abusing megalomaniac, and the other a victim. That's not God's love. Even people with mature love have accountability. I can think of God certainly being no less.

DWBH,

Thanks for standing up for what is right. I respect all those who have continued to learn and help others be whole and healthy emotionally and in their minds. I can confirm any form of counseling training did not exist in WC training later than the time periods you mentioned that I have been familiar with. I don't want to narrow down dates too much at this point.

-CF

She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father.

Dang, kind of like all of us in TWI.

Belle, I've done some research on this and understand their concern over his name…After running the name "Rudy" through my PFAL Decoder Ring [and yes, I used the standard thoroughly & throughly procedure adopted by the Spiritual Perception & Awareness board] the following has been ascertained: Rudy has an etymological root in Middle English, from a declarative statement typically used by self-appointed clergy when referring to a man who is woefully negligent in paying them due respect, "Rude, he!"… As a matter of truth behind the fact, The Athletes of the Spirit Encyclopedia Appendix 666 ½ lists Rude & Cantankerous Spirits as the exact opposites of the Browbeaten & Obsequious Spirits.

[this post has been edited and formatted with a mathematical exactness & scientific precision...and a smattering of spiritualistic mumbo jumbo]

You see, here's is an interpretation that just doesn't quite have the correct SP & A. When you look at it a little closer, it contains the insightful background reference of a really mentally tough small guy who washes jock straps for the Notre Dame football team. You wouldn't want to call a guy that first of all because it might subconsciously plant a reference in his mind of being small, jock straps, or even worse, the mediocrity of Notre Dame as a football power.

Thanks y'all. Glad it makes some sense.

"SP and A" has certainly been a playground for the Way over the years, Shaz. Given that the def. of "discerning of spirits" was a spiritual knowledge, not knowable by the 5 senses, I think we saw a consistent and probably predictable move towards expanding that to rely more on what a person gathered by their "5 senses" versus what they gathered by "spiritual" means, that was truly that kind of information. When the spiriitual know-dat is in short supply, waddya do? If I feel compelled to know that I know that I know when I don't know - yeah, black and white reliance on what I think I do "know".

It's reasonable I think to put two and two together, and get four. What that really means, is a whole nother question. "Judgment" is easy, anyone can say anything and come up with a reasoning for it. Is it right? Nother matter.

SP & A means whatever the particular hotshot at the time you're dealing with wants it to mean. And usually it means that they have it and you don't. And usually the facts don't line up with that. In other words, how it is used in practice is that if you are too lazy to investigate the facts, you can just rely on your "SP & A" if you have clout. If not, tough.

I mean, just look at the personal prophecy fiasco over in CES land they went through. "I saw so and so as a dog". "No, I saw her as a snake". "No, she's a can of Cheese Whiz". That can get real nutty real quick. I kind of look at all those revelation manifestations or gifts or whatever Christians call them as kind of like my underwear. Yes, I'm wearing some. No, you can't see it (and don't want to). They are for my personal benefit and comfort and to protect my private parts. You wear your own.

Although, just for sheer entertainment value, I'd consider starting a thread called "Spiritual Perception and Awareness: Your Revelatory Mind Pictures of TWI Leadership". That would be awesome.

What was my infraction? BC guy insisted that I come closer and sit on his lap while we talked. I told him I no longer needed to talk, but he became irate when I refused to sit in his lap and talk anyway. When he continued to insist using a fake "caring" voice and wanted to know why I wouldn't do it, I said it wasn't appropriate to sit in a married man's lap. His wife was standing right there, and I could have misread her body language, but sensed that she agreed with me and was glad I'd refused his advances. That was one time my radar was loud and clear and there was nothing he could say to talk me into it.

Later that day, wifey appeared to tell me I had to talk to PP about what had happened??????? wtf was up with that? Anyway, next day BC guy was there and PP said from what he understood I didn't want to sit in BCs lap so he just shrugged with a funny look on his face and said he supposed I just didn't want to sit in BCs lap....and that was it.

At the time, I just thought it was about his "I'm the ldr and you'll do what I say" attitude, but the lap business always puzzled me.

Was he pimping, or was he just plain stupid?

I did talk about an unhappy family life growing up in my autobiography, but there was never any sexual abuse. Could the powers that were have thought I was leaving that part out and decided to give me a try anyway?

A more normal response for this guys wife would probably be a frying pan upside the head. But I guess the environment conditions out normal responses. I guess eventually it caught up with him. A normal Christian response of course would be that the BC would be reproved and relieved of responsibility for a lack of "good Christian character" like they say are qualifications for applying for the program.

The BC guy sounds like the type who, outside of being married, you'd wonder if he'd ever touched a woman. That's just stupid behavior. You said he didn't come off as too bright. He was probably stupid. He was probably too stupid to be pimping, but trying to pimp. Did he have access to read your autobiography? The CC did probably, and he sounded a little more balanced (but as a CC he should have been correcting that kind of stupidity by the BC).

Krys,

Thanks from the bottom of my heart for the truth and details in your account. I read in a book somewhere that people do not hide what is appropriate, they only hide what is inappropriate. And this is one in a whole series of stories of the inappropriate being hidden. Thanks for exposing it so those who wish to be informed can make decisions with more knowledge.

I missed reading that on the benefits card for a Foundational Class under the "more harmony in the home" section - "use your wife as a sexual playtoy to be passed around, causing insurmountable psychological damage". Or on the prosperity section "have your belongings stolen and destroyed". Or on the believing and confidence section "be threatened with handguns by mooks for not going along with hotshots breaking laws, attempting bribes, and betraying spiritual authority".

Did you ever find out from the DIL about how she was recruited for this? Or how the wrong doctrine was introduced to her? Did others condone the behavior and encourage her? King Okus just approach directly? Some of those details are the most hidden usually as they can prove collusion and collaboration. There are some stories of those in high places serving as pimps and what's the official court term "procurators" for these acts. It's amazing how deep the rabbit hole actually goes on some of this stuff.

Finding useful information in the forums is difficult. There is a pretty low signal to noise ratio. But you can find the podcasts easily, and those are all content.

One idea that might be worthwhile is to have a new forum for people's personal accounts that is highly moderated with zero noise tolerance. Then we could leave the

About the Way forum open for the normal shenanigans.

So it is to be if it is written on these threads. It is the gospel truth?

no accountability needed, no checks no balances. nothing but words on the www, grease spot friends say it is true so if you do not believe it you must lack compassion.

quite a leap from your stance towards STF and CES when you write in that thread about how foolish their decision making skills were tanzia.

I guess we get to pick and chose who to judge and believe at the end of the day hmm.

So you believe people make up stories that are completely false to cause people to leave TWI?

Mr. Lynn,

After 21 years, Momentus, and the stranger than fiction stories surrounding what you've researched leading to all of the personal prophecy "entertainment" in STFI, I would have to say that you and STFI are poster children for Jesus words "you can't put new wine in old wineskins". After your interpretation of the scriptures basically led to "catfight by prophecy", and "character assassination by prophecy", your credibility is at an all-time low among any who ever took PFAL. However, by your letter, it seems the one thing that hasn't suffered through all of this is the size of your ego and delusions of grandeur. Get a life, get a job, go back to school, and if you want to be a minister maybe you'll learn how to not fail.

In the language of the kids today,

You = Fail

Lucy,

That's a nice letter. You are a good friend. Great example.

-cf

Has anybody heard of it?

No, but that web site provides some pure entertainment!!! Look at the Blodgett's pages under the Wolves tab. It reads like Passing of the Patriarch meets the Unabomber, and gives an overview about what life is like running that outfit! You just can't make up fictional stuff that funny!

Of course you know CES is now STFI (Spirit and Truth Fellowship International).

They should expand their vision, though, and call it Spirit and Truth Fellowship Universal.

That way their initials would communicate better - STFU!

Beautiful!

Then they could have an offshoot that starts their own Research Teaching and Fellowship Ministry. Referred to as - drumroll - RTFM.

I can hear the conversations now. Where did you come from? STFU

What do you believe now? RTFM

When I rejected the "family" vs. "household" blatherings of TWI, it was amazing to me how much more I valued genuine Christian fellowship regardless of the doctrine or background of the Christians. I saw that it was I who had blinders on due to a condescending and judgemental attitude I carried towards brothers and sisters in Christ. They were not considered "household". Boy what a beam I needed to remove from my own eye.

Hi Everyone,

I'd appreciate any advice on ways to recover from all of the verbal abuse heaped on us. If ypu have a story to tell, I'd like to hear it.

Thanks,

finallyunderstand

To me the verbal abuse happened by words that had the power of perceived spiritual authority behind it. What I had to deal with mentally was coming to the conclusion that the spiritual authority was a false one, and was there by people climbing political ladders that were self serving as opposed to what God set up.

Secondly, I realized that as an American citizen I have freedoms that nobody can take away.

Thirdly, I realized that the only power these words had over me were what I allowed. So I made a decision to rightly judge these words as coming from deluded people, and rejected their authority over me.

Fourthly, I started building my own mental patterns, Biblical research, and relationships around the premise that the only authority I would allow to be over me is that which is genuinely from God. I had to change myself from habit patterns of being compliant to false spiritual authority. That was hard work and would have been much easier to ignore or avoid.

I feel more free today than ever before. I am totally convinced that which is truly from Christ produces the fruit of complete spiritual, mental, and emotional freedom.

I got another email from Bob today. He compared me excusing myself from the Way to the betrayal in a marriage. Sez that he stayed, it was rough, Craig is gone, he was a jerk, but once you have worked in a common cause with someone and they leave, the trust is gone.

I am going to sit on this for a day or two and allow God to work in me before I respond. Because whatever I say may be important to bringing some unity back in this situation. heart to heartwise. He did invite me to a Way fellowship, I just don't have the heart to tell him that the people that fellowship with the Way won't allow us in their home.

I don't know about you guys, but I didn't leave because the party got boring or I had to go to work, I decided on my own free will to not hang around a place that spews biblical platitudes and doesn't live what they believe. I mean what were we doing it for, I want rewards. This isn't a contest or a gang war, I want to get the prize. I am going to go God's way, if nobody follows.

In case you haven't noticed, this has turned into a vent. So just take it as that.

I think the most loving thing I can do for him right now, is to show him that I am still his sister, I still support him just like I always did and buy a CD. Money talks .... walks, right?

I did see a great bumper sticker ( I am trying real hard to not cry here, me and him were close. VP had given me a rose bud from the last time I saw him at Gunnison and at the time it meant a great deal, when he died, I took some petals and sent them to Bob.) we were tight.)

the bumper sticker says,

I am not in heat

Get away from my tail.

We shoulda had those around the Way leadership eh?

Thanks for letting me talk,

Lucy

Lucy,

He's brainwashed and can't see the truth. There's an element of truth in his analogy of excusing one's self from TWI being like betrayal in a marriage. It's just on the other side. Most licensed counselors equate spiritual abuse as very similar to emotional and even physical spousal abuse. So the betrayal in the marriage would be the one having the power and authority abusing the weaker like an abusive husband emotionally and physically abusing the wife.

You should tell him that. I hear he refused a request to go to HQ and be the new face of Way Prod. So he's not buying in to drinking all the kool aid even though he's acting like a jerk to you.

Plus I wonder.. how many details were placed in the hand of your overseer's overseer. How much debt one had, how many times and when one had sex with one's spouse, how much is in the bank, etc. etc.

Very personal information.

I wonder if as they were considered a counsellor or advisor in the organization, one could bring criminal charges against them for violating confidentiality. They had the organization's stamp of approval after all..

I'd like to see them argue that before a judge.. "well your honor, he had debt. Therefore, he was a danger to himself and others. We had to tell.."

I agree Java Jane, there seems there were two lockbox practices, one for the average follower, another for the mogster's sexual appetites and worse..

There definitely is a double standard. Whatever personal details you tell an overseer gets repeated all the way up to directors / trustees. However, whatever the top dawgs do or say is "lockbox".

Exactly .....beliefs I don't think he figured that he needed to list everyone , or that he could . the belief in the Bible as scriptural truth is a belief That means when John D.Schmitt said The right to believe is absolute. The right to act is subject to reasonable regulation. They are two separate things, belief of scriptural truth ( which is a belief) and actions are not one in the same. We absolutely have the right to believe and accept scriptural truth despite or regardless of any good or bad actions by the speaker. Actions of the speaker while subject to civil law as they should be ,do not however change the truth of scripture or earthly knowledge one can learn from their words into untruth.

Jesus dealt with this issue when confronting the Pharisees in Matt. 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

The difficulty presented by the Pharisees was that they had an appearance of goodness, and spoke words that sounded like truth. Yet their actions did not line up. What he was showing there was that in reality they were not speaking truth. The words they taught were tainted by leaven. It tainted the whole of what they taught. So he taught disciples to "beware" of this leaven. The Pharisees made up rules that protected themselves and caused their ailing parents to suffer.

Like this the teachings of VPW have to be viewed as tainted with leaven. With the same heart that he performed acts of sexual predation he prepared teachings, classes, research.

Can you remove the leaven out of bread? Take the little piece out that was tainted? No, as it spreads throughout the whole loaf, and you're unable to determine which section is leavened and which section is not.

VPW's teachings are of a similar sort. Like the leaven of the Pharisees, you can't remove the leaven out of his classes, teachings, research. The loaf has been leavened. If you want unleavened bread, the only solution is to throw out the loaf and bake a new loaf.

Unfortunately what you see with many of the offshoots is that instead of throwing out the loaf, they keep it and start a ministry around it, only changing the "behavior" to be more godly. Therefore what they attract is those who are accustomed to a leavened diet, as opposed to the unsaved, the untrained Christian, the pure soul in need of instruction. It just doesn't work.