chockfull

Estimated Prophet,

Thanks for your responses and consideration. We are as you say pretty much on the same page. These are murky waters to navigate and all of us are blind at junctures.

I am thankful for Ralph taking the time to delve into these matters, and provide some detail and clarity. I don't know what he's up to lately, but hope all the best for him.

My hopes are that we all can pursue a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and our Heavenly Father, free from the yoke of bondage and the leaven of the Pharisees. My goal and vision is that we can stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and walk the path that God enlightens for us in pursuit of His will for our lives, wherever that takes us.

Those are some very good and valid points Chockful.

Thanks.

Except for the central statement I have quoted here.

Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ ,

let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth."

That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time.

My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will.

Namely Jesus Christ.

I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI.

I would agree, and add that they "teach for doctrine the commandments of men". I have always viewed Jesus Christ as the head, yet through my association with TWI and their leadership who appeared to, yet in their inner hearts and life practices did not, I was hurt as well. Is this my failure to hold JC as the head? Or just that I was deceived because I didn't know details like Ralph shared?

I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines.

Once you recognize

that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI,

then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture.

I agree with you.

Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig

"Dr Weirwille was Wrong!"

In 1986 I would have called that heresy.

Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place.

Praise Be to God

I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith.

I can relate to you here - I'm thankful for the Word I learned. I have forgiven and will not allow bitterness over what was lost to rule my life.

If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life.

Maybe instead of judging others you should take your own suggestions?

If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then

(as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express)

"You Better take Jesus With You"

Peace

Who exactly is it that you think it is that motivates exposing the sinful and destructive practices of TWI? Jesus Christ? Or the flaming head of Jerry Garcia in a vision? Or is it Satan? I'll tell you there are varying opinions on that. I know who motivates it for me.

"Today if you will hear his voice,

harden not your hearts"

I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987.

But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.

Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and of itself as a clear reason to bring it all back up now. There are many details in his podcast that never have been brought up before. What's your motive in questioning?

Yes.

It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst.

But Why,

now that he wants to speak up,

does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd?

After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief.

As are most people who have a conscience's heart. They grieve the injustice, and the years and effort spent supporting such charlatans. This is a godly thing.

Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to.

That's where the genuine healing is.

Yes, pal.

I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski.

I am just seeing other things under the surface.

Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts.

What is really behind this message?

What's behind your message besides a veiled reference to a mote in your brother's eye? What does this veiled reference accomplish other than to discredit his account?

Why is it that every genuine heart sharing here on GS seems to have people needing to attack it and discredit it immediately afterwards, all in the name of Jesus purporting to bring "healing" and "forgetting the past"?

Most people here have had enough of people trying to silence the atrocities commited by the leadership of TWI by sweeping them under a carpet, paying off millions in lawsuit settlements with believers ABS, and talking about some nebulous concepts of healing and forgetting the past. They could experience that in the organization.

People don't hide behavior that's appropriate, they hide behavior that is inappropriate. When the inappropriate behavior is brought to light, people can make better decisions than when it was hidden.

Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?

I think not.

We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth.

We are even more blessed to have recognized

and pulled down

those things contrary to the obedience of Christ.

That is a day by day and thought by thought process my friend - pulling down strongholds, casting down imaginations, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Well if I've learned anything,

it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out.

and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years.

So write him a letter or give him a call. Asking about it in this forum in response to a sharing he made on events in the past serves nothing but to cast doubt on what he did share.

His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church.

Which Church is this you speak of? TWI? Another Christian group? The body of Christ as described in the Bible? If the latter, how can you purport to speak for the entire body of Christ to say he has not been communicating Christ? Does casting doubt upon your brother in Christ somehow bring Christ more clearly into the picture? If so, please enlighten us how.

It's clear that you don't want to answer the questions. It's clear that Jesus or his followers did not spend their days talking about personal evil day in day out , that's what is clear. It's clear that their warnings were to the point and then the focus was not continously on the sins of others but upon helping. Anyone can run their mouth about someone elses sins. that does not take much effort. If you want to stay stuck talking about others sins fine. Dont try to pass it off as something Jesus would do clearly he did not engage in such actions. Jesus helped those in need he did not set them down and tell them all of Herod's sins thinking that would somehow help them.

Have you not read Matthew 23, where Jesus confronts the scribes and Pharisees in detail? Very interesting read. He uses the words as a figure of speech "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" 8 times. This represents a new beginning. He teaches in detail to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

So by your logic, Jesus himself spent a significant amount of time "running his mouth about someone else's sins", and that doesn't take much effort.

The Bible speaks differently. Considering deeply in detail all of the leaven of the Pharisees, as well as highlighting in detail the hypocrisy they functioned with in the outward appearance being godly but the inner reality being evil, can be healing. It can present a new beginning to people.

In this thread, Kristen's account presents a story that unfolds to detail out this exact hypocrisy. The accounts of abuse people have suffered can be healing to those who have suffered similarly. It can expose evil which previously was unexposed. It can help people leave, and stop supporting evil with their time, effort and money. That is a good thing.

Enlightening account of events surrounding that time. Additional info I learned by the accounts were that all BOT / BOD were aware of adultery doctrine and practices, Donna was in the Yak twig and thus aware as well, and the extremity of the viciousness that is wrapped within the corporate culture when one loses favor with whoever is perceived to be in power. Those are reasonably established facts.

They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed? Donna and Rosie must have lied about Donna's knowledge of the adultery practices to justify her staying at HQ. She has a top administrative executive position now. When people lose favor there is still a viciousness of treatement. So lies, political posturing, and viciousness. All ingrained in a corporate culture that was developed in the '70's and has not changed. People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it. And the fact that time has passed before these accounts were detailed and questioning the purpose. By the same logic, we should discount reading the gospels because they were written possibly 60 years or so after the events occurred. I'm sure the Sanhedrim would question the accounts and accuracy in the gospels, as it would discredit their position of political power.

Ralph comes across to me as a man governed more by his inner conscience and ethics of morality established as a Christian man than a man governed by political posturing. That is to his credit. He has even rightfully through this questioning asked some root core questions about establishing ministries as his reasons for not jumping on a spinoff bandwagon. Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

Foundatio Nal Class ? What does the "N" stand for?

I really have no idea. It's just the abbreviation they use on blue forms when somebody registers.

Maybe its a secret code that unlocks the hidden 'extra special' Genesis 3 interpretations in the class. All done in interpretive dance.

Where's the power?

In the Energizer 'D' batteries. Where else?

Even more interesting is the current lawsuit TWI has against insurance companies who don't seem to want to provide coverage for their BOD for some reason....

chockfull,

there's a new class called FNC?

what does FNC stand for?

Just letters standing for the Foundational Class on the Way of Abundance and Power (FNC), or Foundational Class. It is videotaped so no longer taught live, by 3 teachers, and is basically the same as the Martin@le class, minus a couple things.

Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep

wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.

Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...

Eye witness accounts here on the boards say that Donna and Rosie have been chummy for years. In some peoples' minds, a little TOO chummy if you get my drift. Even before Craig left, they were known to take shopping trips together, vacation together, sharing one hotel room... Could be nothing. But the fact that Rosalie had two well-known (supposedly ex-)lesbians living in the basement of her home for years, and the fact that Craig had such a hatred of homosexuals does make it look a certain way...

Interesting...

So one possibility is that the 2 living in the basement (sharing 1 bed) potentially could have had something on Rosie & Donna such as knowing the true nature of their relationship, and so were protected. Craig's hatred of homos AND the kind of out there interpretation in his FNC of the original sin being lesbianism could point to him knowing about such a relationship, yet with those 2 having all the dirt on his escapades being powerless to do anything about it besides rant like a lunatic. The basement duo survived all the purges at HQ, and Janet even provided a lot of 'genuine spiritual suspicion' evidence (takes one to know one). Rosie gave them a lavish banquet when they left that nobody there could understand. There is evidence (can see on Wikipedia and published in a newspaper) that Rosie knew of Craig's escapades by 1995. It's quite a stretch to think that she wouldn't have told her good 'friend' Donna, and they potentially may have known years before this. Then they conspired to oust Craig. The reason given Donna didn't have to leave with Craig was 'she didn't know about it'. Yeah right. They've ousted more people than that for 'lack of CP1'. I hear in the new FNC they took out the lesbianism in Gen 3, and removed Craig's closing the class with Romans 1. Everything else is pretty much intact.

In my opinion spin is a political term, and is a way to influence and control public perception. The argument is that one doesn't have to spin something inherently good, it stands on its own merits. We seek "the real thing", not something that has to be spun. However, that is all too rare where people are involved.

Pocket Full of Kryptonite

Now that album by the Spin Doctors, in my opinion, definitely stands on its own merit. Snappy beats, good crunch warm guitars, intriguing lyrics. Overall good sound.

Joel 2:25-27 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Catcup,

I like your posts, and I share your sentiments. For my life, what I struggle with is that I think those many years ago I was praying to God and following God. I don't know what happened, but somehow really want to believe that all things work together for good for us that love God and are called according to His purpose. It's just that years ago His purpose and TWI's purpose diametrically divurged for me, and I've since learned all this stuff about how the corrupt roots extend way back to the highest and earliest, how a lot was plagiarized, the sex scandals, the homo stuff that's probably still going on. I just have to believe that somehow God has protected my heart and that all that scripture I worked at learning is worth something. Why should their pathology be mine? But maybe I'm just chockfull of nuts and in need of therapy.

Hey, I just got back to GS and I am excited to see that excath and dog lover responded to my post. You see, my post was meant to be a test within a test.

Yanagisawa, I've got a test myself. It's a really cool one, involving a bucket of water, a car battery, jumper cables, and someone's testicles. We'd all like you to participate.

And to stay on track on this thread, it's unfortunate this wronged man wasn't able to perform this kind of test on the veepster when he was still alive.

Thats just it there are no facts presented...... Only a one sided version. Or what they thought they may have heard or at least maybe understood them to mean or well hey they made me wash my face once and I didn't like that so what the hell I'll just say anything cause I don't like that person. So Drew Peterson says he did nothing to his wife or wives by your standard do we just believe his facts of his experiance? Maybe you should call the police and let them know that what he says is truth because he says so . They wont be needing any facts to get in the way of his experiance.

WhiteDove, my speculation is that you work for the public relations department at TWI.

What exactly is so wrong or evil about a one-sided story? We never get to hear both sides, and not the other side, as TWI and leaders there are too busy with the silent treatment and damage control tactics. Hell how many people have they paid off in lawsuits to keep from having both sides of the story exposed for all to see and make their own judgements?

What we have here at GS is a little bit of an exposure site. So people who want nothing more than forget their experiences with TWI and move on come on here, find similar stories of evil functioning, get incensed, post their experiences, feel better about themselves, and move on.

But as for you, to quote Shakespeare,

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet Act 3 Scene 2

Jeff

Since you are throwing my name about I'll remind you that I never put down anyone here . I simply asked that if someone was accusing another of a crime ,or any likewise serious charge ,they should in a public format have some documentable evidence to back up their story . This is common place in the media and a reasonable request. I doubt you would feel so compelled to accept the heat as you put it if I were to accuse you of being a child molester. I'm guessing that you would want some explanation why I thought so, some reason for my accusation maybe? I was hurt, can I just say anything I want about you and you'll just let it slide? Doubtful.........

And again, since we are going over this one more time, the point here on this forum is that the burden for proof here on an anonymous public internet forum is NOT the same as it is in a court of law, or in a journalistic publication such as a newspaper. It's lower.

What that means is that you have plenty of hurt people who have a venue to vent their feelings at what happened to them, receive some support, and help heal.

And you have a number of pinheads on here who like to attack those people's stories, discount them, try and uphold standards for accusations that don't apply, and in general behave like buttheads in many ways exactly like the insensitive morally depraved control freak morons who hurt them in the first place.

And that of course is why people post their stories here and then leave.

But maybe that's the intent of the buttheads. Damage control for TWI, trying to discount stories by these tactics, and drive away people so more aren't affected.

break it down.

vpw died . people left no one has ever been able to find him guilty of any crime.

uh, yeah. because dead people are prosecuted all the time in our society. right?

lcm was sued in in a CIVIL court of which the details and evidence is never going to be disclosed they settled out of court hello.

settled means no one is found guilty they settled their issues without a judge ruling ANYTHING!!!!

on top of that the details of the suit are not to be known by anyone and are sealed.

so along comes gs to fill in the blanks with what ever imagination or speculation they think or heard or whatever.

part of the pattern of abuse is to call real things that happened to people imagination or speculation. that's what twi leaders have done, except where they've had to accept and sign the lawsuit settlement papers. even then how it was publically handled is by presenting a victory that they were settled.

no crimes were cominted by record.

not exactly" evil atrocities" in my book.

internet folly and fun to read sure but no one really made any changes in anything by bitching on a thread.

like twi Greaspot is a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.

i beg to differ. speaking up always has value, and many times catalyzes changes not immediately seen.

the founding fathers of our country were a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.

certainly the king of england wanted to dismiss them. they became a burr under his saddle and took his power,

in the process establishing a great country.

nothing world changing about twi or greaspot Rascal. yes we do see different perspectives.

I think what helps is the wonderful front page pawtucket has set up with his papers and resources now that is helpful.

the constant ranting of invisable people with no names making accusations without merit really doesnt rock the cult world as much as you believe.

rock on.

the accusations most certainly have merit. they have proven so legally. they have merit in thwarting further abuse. stories like these are used all the time in the business world to educate buyers. they are called "customer reviews". they affect the ability to sell the product.

If any other secret society comes to mind please reply.

The Illuminati. Or the Templars. But I'm not sure if that comes from TWI, or simply the cool dreams I've had since watching the latest "National Treasure" movie.

your not alone Rascal

As jesus said to the crowd with stones ready to kill a woman full of "atrocities" they had every legal right to kill her with the stones, you know she was a very bad woman in the eye of the law and God.

He never told them they didnt have a right to punish or hate only those who had never sinned to go first.

He forgave her Rascal, so imagine that.

the entire bible is a book about God redeeming worthless man back to His love.

do not make this about how i must idol vpw I do not BUT i do listen and learn from what the LORD did and how he instructed us in his scriptures

How sweet. pond is projecting the past abuses pond committed onto the woman caught in adultery, and is subconsciously repenting and asking all of us for forgiveness.

How kind, loving, and honorable, pond. And of course, we all forgive you. Now, go and sin no more.

Ho, ho, ho and a Merry Christmas to all. Mistletoe, eggnog with rum, lots of presents, cookies and milk for Santa.

Family, fun, and the joy of childhood.

And if it's all of pagan origin then God bless the pagans who helped establish a tradition that gives me days off of work and a fun time with my family.

-CF

"Dedicated to putting the X back in Xmas."

I can't read through this whole thread, I did about four pages. I got involved in TWI in 1975, took the class in Jan 1976 and as early as 1976 I heard the line of "Happy is he in the thing he alloweth" in reference to sex and drugs and I was told by leadership to quit judging people who were doing just that. In 1978 I had some twig leader trying to give me that swill because he wanted a sexual relationship with me and told me in addition to there being no condemnation that two believers having sex was okay but a believer and non believer was like hooking up with a whore of Satan or some crapola like that. I told him to shove it up his yahoo.

Outstanding!!!

We had a branch leader make his way through the females of the branch. I have been oogled and leered at by some of the most popular Revs of TWI and don't tell me I don't know a sexual undressing via the eyes when I see it and that includes being leered at by VPW himself. I had Revs practically sit on my lap when I was in alone in the branch home I lived in and in the early 1980's I was told by a believer that Rev F was telling the males it was okay for a married man to have sex with other females as it was godly and spiritual to have their needs taken care while they were away from their wives. So Oldies, most of the sex was between a married man (or woman) and a single female (or male). How does that fit into your right and wrong perspective? How about a man or woman of God keeps it zipped up tighter than a zip lock freezer bag. Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed.

I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?) and just living off of our believing. Corps leadership told me that, repeatedly. Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, remember that? Not even your own family. TWI was great at condemming family traditions (and you can still see remnants of that teaching over in the open forum where posters warn against having traditions) because TWI wanted NO tradition or family event before a TWI event because it was putting other things before the things of God. TWI twisted the scripture where Jesus condemmed the Pharisees for teaching rules of men as commandments of God and it got twisted by TWI so they could effectively separate us from our own families and if TWI tried to separate us from our own families, (advanced classes at Thanksgiving time, etc) from our own careers it is ONLY a hop skip and a jump to separate us from friends or potential friends. It was all about control. Control over us.

Control was a major underlying theme through a lot of the behavior and teachings.

What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true.

The paper that John S wrote. I remember that. I also remember the spiritual hype and fear campaign that CG started against anyone reading the paper. He said that John S' paper undermined the whole work of VPW in that it supported the .....drum roll please.............THE TRINITY!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, The Triniity???? What an effective way to keep people from reading the paper by making them afraid of 1. aiding in undermining the great teacher of all times work 2. OMG THE TRINITY (what an effective tool to control people that became) and 3. He said you would get possessed, another effective tool of keeping people in line.

A fitting end that John S after being abused helped found another group that he still leads.

And I hope with all the garbage you had to put up with that God seeing your real beauty gave you someone to take care of you and not use you.

Ah... apologies. Offended people always think apologies are owed to them. When that doesn't happen according to their terms and conditions they remain offended and become self-righteous and judgmental themselves.

Ah... apologies. Offending people never think they did anything wrong, and so don't think they need apologize. They rationalize and sublimate their behavior. Then they go on to offend more people. Pretty soon the trail of damaged lives starts to become evident behind them. And thus by their fruits they are known. And what they have sown they begin to reap, as God is not mocked.

Was it something someone did that offended you, or was it the truth that was preached to you that you didn’t like that offended you? The Jews had the truth taught to them and they stumbled and became offended. They didn’t like the truth that justification and salvation came by the cross of Christ. They thought the way to being justified was through the keeping of the law, so they stumbled at the truth. They stumbled at the truth and couldn’t receive it.

If a truth from the Word of God comes to you and if you don’t walk in that truth, then you also become offended.

That's a neat pet theory. Is it a Biblical one?

Now most people don’t call it that. What people don’t realize is that there are two sources for being offended. Is it something someone did wrong to you, or was it the truth that came to you that you didn’t like? The Jews had the truth presented to them, that salvation was through faith and not by the works of the law and they were offended by the claims of Jesus Christ. They thought the law was the way to be justified and sanctified before God so they stumbled at the faith of the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:22,23)

Now the way one gets out of offence is by realizing what they stumbled at. The way one gets out of the offence of someone who did you wrong is different than the way you get out of the offence of stumbling over the truth of God’s Word. Well, you may disagree. If it is the truth, then it doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree – or even if I agree or disagree. If we don’t walk in the light of the truth then we are offended.

And again we get into this new "offended" definition. I John says if we walk in the light then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we don't it's not described as being "offended". It says if we say we have fellowship, and walk in darkness then we lie and do not the truth. There is a central deception and a central delusion there in I John. And all the talk about truth doesn't make it the truth. Al Gore has a movie entitled "An Inconvenient Truth". His logic is offensive. His clamoring to be in the public eye is offensive. It's certainly inconvenient, but it's not truth. If you really want to understand some things around here, stop blinding yourself to the "offender" and turning all your attention on to the "offended".

What does that mean? It means we stumble. That means you’re not going any further because when light comes you have to walk in that light, otherwise you stumble. It is the entrance of God’s Word that gives light. When light comes then you walk in that, so when the Word of God is taught and more light comes to you as you walk in that light further revelation also comes to you. But if you don’t walk in the light, then you cease to walk altogether. You can’t run the race that is set before you as you can’t even walk without the light.

When Jesus preached the Word of God many were offended at his claims, of who he claimed to be, etc. I always thought if someone was offended at me then I must have done something wrong. Yes, sometimes you have to ask yourself – did I do them wrong? If it’s true then its true and I need to repent, but if it’s not true then I don’t need to ask for forgiveness for something I didn’t do. You don’t owe someone an apology for something you didn’t do, and you don’t have to apologize for something you didn’t do. The reason we think people owe us an apology is because we think they wronged us, and the reason they don’t apologize is simply because they don’t believe they wronged us at all.

And the real reason most of the leadership in twi never apologized is that they wronged people all the time, and pretended they didn't know it. They lied about what they told people and did, played politics and ruined people's lives, and then never apologized trying to delude themselves into believing they didn't wrong anybody, but just presented the truth to them. And yet a little voice in their conscience knows differently, unless it has become seared with a hot iron due to their behavior. Ultimately, God is not fooled.

But I was talking earlier about the process of restoring fellowship with one who was offended. In that process repentance is not involved (repentance is for the unsaved sinner) but that of forgiveness (forgiveness is for the one who is saved). Now I haven't read anywhere in the Word of God it is always guaranteed one can restore the fellowship they once had with someone. There are many factors that come into play as to whether that is possible or not – i.e. what was the relationship before the offence took place? What value do you have (and what value does the other person have) toward that relationship? Those are probably the primary questions.

Many times the reason we feel people owe us an apology is largely because we feel something of value was lost. The reason someone may not apologize to us is largely due to what they value themselves out of the relationship. If LCM and Rosie etc., have not apologized (and they don’t intend to) then what value is the relationship to them – or even to you for that matter? Perhaps the better question to ask yourself is: What is it that you value the most? Because whatever you value the most is your god – (or your God) and there certainly are a lot of gods alive and well in America today, not necessarily the true God. Now a lot of people value money more than a lot of other things, perhaps even more than the relationships they have with others. Now there is nothing wrong with money in and of itself, unless you are relying on it and somehow it meets your needs far more than what you are relying on God to meet your needs. Yeah, money is one of the many gods that people do have.

The value of the relationship of those people to the people they have abused is obviously very low. So they didn't value a good name and relationship with the common. I'm not sure WTH you are talking about w/r to what you value is your god. Is this some kind of a lecture on idolatry? Money? For that to be an idol you actually have to have some.

But I believe there is something we as Americans today have come to value far more than money, and that is: privacy. That’s right. We don’t want people getting into our lives, or being involved in our lives or having to share our lives with one another – the essence of what real relationships are about. Many times the god that we are worshipping is simply ourselves - and we have not come to realize or have dealt well at all with the god of our own privacy. That too, I believe, also comes into play as to whether or not you are capable of restoring the relationship you had with someone who may be offended.

Oh, this is top notch entertainment. Privacy. We sound like a brainwash victim here. The problem with relationships w/r to TWI is that the leadership was blind to the boundaries that exist in normal healthy relationships. They would so constantly overstep freedom of will with controlling advice that relationships there are more of a controller and a co-dependant as opposed to free adults healthily interacting. This is so easy to see in the sentence equating people "getting into our lives" with being involved with and sharing lives. In a healthy relationship people share what they choose. Instead of hundreds of inquisition type inquiries and "checking things by someone". That's a puppet and a puppeteer, and is a dysfunctional relationship. One of the ways you start to see the dysfunction there is when the puppeteer shares little, and the puppet is required to share much. VPW taught on the lockbox. But these clowns freely pass innermost secrets of people's lives up and down chains of authority, all inserting their opinions. They put the "fun" in dys-fun-ctional.

The god of our own privacy. Yeah. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights which is the foundation behind law. In God We Trust. That's why it takes lawsuits and the threat of lawsuit to effect change where common sense and common Christian courtesy are so missing. Simple HR laws that prevent defamation of character toward former employees. A level playing field for all is the goal of law. And it's a beautiful thing, otherwise the control of the few elite might have been unchecked, and life would gravitate back towards the Inquisition days.

But in reality contributing nothing but negatives!

I want to contribute some negatives...

1. It's not quite a perfect day today. Beautiful blue sky, only 1 cloud.

2. My family isn't perfect either.

3. I dislike my job 1 day out of 30.

4. I only get 4 weeks of vacation.

How am I doing so far?

I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..

That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..

I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.

On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..

I became, and am becoming what could have been..

I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..

I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..

It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..

but still the past is part of me.

Rascal got the black belt..

"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..

The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..

You know H, that's an interesting thing to consider you brought up, about whether or not we can really separate ourselves from our past as its still part of us. That made me actually go look up Phil. 3:13 again and look at some of those words. The religious would lecture about "forgetting the past", etc., etc., etc. and speak ex cathedra from a throne and try to shut down talking about it. But I tell you I can sure remember the offences that happened to me in detail and with great clarity, many years later.

So what does that section mean to me? One of the definitions of that word "forget" is "to neglect, no longer caring for". I guess I'd have to say that a lot like the things you are sharing, what I am building now is more important to me than all that. Education, business, hobbies, relationships in my community. And yes, studying the Bible. But I do it now more for me - what interests me, rather than out of obligation or religious duress. I guess over time I spend more time on the things I love and less time on all the sicko stuff I went through. But I tell you, the indignation at the injustice still gets me worked up. And maybe that's a good thing, to keep evil from functioning.

Congrats to you on what you've built, rascal you too. And who cares if we could have done it years ago? God will bless us and prosper what we're doing now because He's God.

so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.

DWBH,

Thanks for all you've done and posted. You're cool in my book.

CF

as far as the sheep story by chockfull that was written to isreal and they are not son and daughters of God they were servants, no He doesnt love them less , they lived under the law they are not sons and daughters times changed with Jesus we are not sheep we are not to be compared to what God displyed for them things changed with the grace of Jesus Christ and the power of HOLY Spirt within.

and that is why and how the bible is used to wound and hurt people.

Apparantly you haven't read Rom. 8:30 - you know, the one right before calling us "more than conquerors"? And also have missed Hebrews 13:20 Hebrews "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"

You probably also missed the whole context of VPW's Foundational Class, which the theme verse is John 10:10, and the context talks about Jesus, the good shepherd, and his sheep.

I guess Jesus must have been using the bible to wound and hurt people when he drew the same analogy of himself as a shepherd and believers as sheep.

And I'm sure you must have overlooked I Peter 2:25 - "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls"

But hey, look on the bright side. Your powers of wrongly dividing administrations and ignoring truth outside of the Grace Administration to justify spiritual abuse, and shift the blame away from leaders who hurt people on to the people and those who speak up against it probably displays some of the leadership qualities that abusive organizations actively seek.

Best of wishes with all that.

Oh, and fyi I have a very merry heart. It's overjoyed and all healed up from the past abuses I've suffered because I've been able to get to the truth of the Word rather than living in denial. I can call it what it is, allow vengeance to be the Lord's, and move on in life with a light heart. No delusions to weigh me down.