chockfull

So then you are saying that the Pharisee's did not have individual sins, cause I'm bettin they did just like those in the way yet Jesus seemed to only address them as a group. Why do you think that is?

No I am not saying Pharisees did not have individual sins. If you would actually read my posts, I have pointed out numerous times that Jesus addressed them as a group because they were criticizing him and attacking him as a group.

Would you like another example , I think you get the point Jesus did not single out individuals and sins and discuss them day after day. He did not discuss exactly how Joe Scribe spent temple money or how or who Sam Pharisee slept with. he spoke of the general sin stealing or sexual sins only. You think he did, show me......... chapter and verse.

I do not get your point. You are ranting about someone singling out individuals and their sins and discussing them day after day, and how Jesus didn't do that. Is this an overall condemnation of all of GS? If that's how you feel, then don't let the door hit you where God split you on your way out of here.

Jesus dealt with individuals and their sins all the time. The man with the possessed kid trying to pin his believing on Jesus - his response - 'if you can believe, all things are possible'. Raising Lazurus from the dead - everyone criticizing him - he put every single one out of the room. The person criticizing the woman for wiping his feet with her hair - he confronted that sin right there. Even in his resurrected body he told Peter - what is it to you? when he asked about the disciple he loved. He most certainly singled out individuals, dealt with their sins, and if they were responsive helped teach and heal them. Even if they were not, like Judas Iscariot, he still dealt with him individually and publically, and the record is there for everyone to see. He healed a guard's ear after someone lopped it off, confronting that sin.

These examples are numerous and right off the top of my head. You seem to be the one that is trying to prove that Jesus did not single out individuals. So prove it - where is your chapter and verse?

So exactly who was that he was addressing in 1 Cor. 5:1? Sorry I missed the name there?

While he doesn't name the name there, he names the report, and that the person is commonly known. He addresses ONE INDIVIDUAL, and that person would be very well known to anyone in the Corinth area involved in Paul's teachings.

You have some really stupid logic there, WD. By your logic, maybe courts shouldn't single out individuals who commit rape or talk about the rapists' sins day after day during their trial. Maybe trials should only deal with groups of people in general. Maybe there are no individuals that abuse, it's just society in general's problem. Maybe even your own stupid and intolerant logic is not really your fault - it's somehow some group's fault, whoever raised you, or taught you wrong, or whatever.

People who sexually abuse others in the name of God SHOULD be exposed, they SHOULD have people talking about their hypocrisy, and they SHOULD become famous for their deeds. Kind of like OJ Simpson.

No he didn't that is a usage of a generaric term "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" it does not address anyone in specific or their sins . There are none named by name and continually discussed. The point being address the wrong not rant about the individual involved.

Where exactly is it you see 'ranting about the individual involved' ??? This podcast is an individual's account.

There are individuals in the gospels who wronged Jesus - like Herod for example. Pauls talks about Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil.

As I stated before with the Pharisees, there were a group of them all together attacking Jesus to try and discount his healing people on the sabbath, not washing hands enough, hanging out with publicans and sinners. Since they were attacking all together, he addressed them as a group. You failed to address that point, and yet it's your main founding logic behind telling Kristen and all here that it's wrong to bring up an individual's sexual sins.

As for 600, it would not surprise me if OFFICIAL membership of adults

was at 600 now. I don't have a source for that number other than the

post above, however.

This is an estimate, not fact. There are 15 regions in the TWI USA work. Each region represents from 500-600 what they call 'active believers'. This puts membership in the USA work currently at 7500-9000 people. I don't have a means to estimate international involvement.

a poem written by my 13-year old son yesterday ~

I Am

I am a funny and daring person

I wonder what my future will be like

I hear, "try your best in school"

I see myself in twenty years

I want to live a good life

I am a funny and daring person

I pretend nothing can go wrong

I feel myself being more responsible

I touch the sky

I worry about dying

I cry for my life

I am a funny and daring person

I understand nothing is perfect

I say we will all go to a better place

I try not to think about that day

I hope for the best

I am a funny and daring person

exc,

Your son sounds like a wonderful and interesting young man who has courage, a sense of humor, and is starting to ponder the deep things of life.

May he grow into a tall tree in the forest showing forth all God's beauty.

I believe I mentioned that warning has it place, that said I don't see lots of records where Jesus spent considerable time on it in the overall scope of scripture. nor do I see where he looked specifically at any Scribes or Pharisees personal life and commented over and over daily on the same subject for years upon years. I see where he addressed them as a group, not where he called each one out by name and ranted about every detail of their life. On the other hand I think he did mention something about a beam and motes in the eye. One could argue that in his day the leaders were spending peoples money on high living, and owning too many chariots, as some have discussed VP's cars in our time , If it really was so important that we be warned of such things Jesus should have felt the need to talk about it in minute detail day after day . Sorry I don't see that happening in scripture. Apparently his concern was not with discussing their personal sins but with overall points of contrast. I see where he warned of specific things none personal in nature and then focused on a solution not the sins . To suggest that it in any way compares to gossiping about someone with no plan for resolve is foolish. It is not even close to the same thing. While having no internet in his day of course , I see no lengthy accounts of Jesus sitting in the temple and listing what every Scribe was doing or has done wrong in their life. who ,and how many times they had sex with, nor did I see him argue over every "the" they said looking for some twisted meaning. Apparently he did not think that was the way people needed to be warned. I'd agree.

WD,

Kristen's sharing is her unique life's experience. She is sharing it to provide clarity, and help those that can benefit from it. She is not commenting on Pharisee's personal lives over and over day after day. The Pharisees attacked Jesus as a group, so he addressed them as a group. The sins of TWI leadership many times were individual offenses as opposed to group offenses. So responding in generalities to them as a group makes zero logical sense. The coverups of the individual sins were group efforts, so we can call them modern-day Pharisees, that strain at gnats and swallow camels, that tithe of mint and spices, but ignore the weightier matters in life, that need to learn what it means that God would have mercy and not sacrifice.

Pharisees typically didn't own too many chariots. They were the working-class religious zealots. The Saduccees were the ruling class.

If you'd take the time to look through the account in Matthew 23 rather than making vague generalizations about it, you could learn some great detail about what Jesus did think needed to be confronted.

With respect to handling individual sins publically especially of the sexual nature, you don't need to go much farther than Corinthians, in 1 Cor. 5:1 one individual is singled out for a sexual sin, and Paul's recommendation was to handle it and confront it publicly. This is not even a person with a leadership responsibility, yet it is to be brought up in an epistle meant to be read in all the churches, and with impact for generations to follow.

That is not gossip, that is not a lack of concern with personal sin and the impact it had on all the believers. That is confronting it, saying it's wrong, and handling it.

For you to state that Jesus would not want these things exposed or handled publicly, or that he would not want accounts like this to get out to warn people is a completely slanted view of what the scripture teaches, and it is one that is similar to the way TWI leadership handles these things, to discount them and sweep them under the carpet. It has taken legal action to change this, when in all honesty it should have been handled from a good moral Christian conscience. Yet that is the pattern - there is no good honest moral Christian conscience when it comes to TWI leadership.

Estimated Prophet,

Thanks for your responses and consideration. We are as you say pretty much on the same page. These are murky waters to navigate and all of us are blind at junctures.

I am thankful for Ralph taking the time to delve into these matters, and provide some detail and clarity. I don't know what he's up to lately, but hope all the best for him.

My hopes are that we all can pursue a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and our Heavenly Father, free from the yoke of bondage and the leaven of the Pharisees. My goal and vision is that we can stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and walk the path that God enlightens for us in pursuit of His will for our lives, wherever that takes us.

Those are some very good and valid points Chockful.

Thanks.

Except for the central statement I have quoted here.

Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ ,

let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth."

That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time.

My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will.

Namely Jesus Christ.

I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI.

I would agree, and add that they "teach for doctrine the commandments of men". I have always viewed Jesus Christ as the head, yet through my association with TWI and their leadership who appeared to, yet in their inner hearts and life practices did not, I was hurt as well. Is this my failure to hold JC as the head? Or just that I was deceived because I didn't know details like Ralph shared?

I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines.

Once you recognize

that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI,

then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture.

I agree with you.

Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig

"Dr Weirwille was Wrong!"

In 1986 I would have called that heresy.

Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place.

Praise Be to God

I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith.

I can relate to you here - I'm thankful for the Word I learned. I have forgiven and will not allow bitterness over what was lost to rule my life.

If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life.

Maybe instead of judging others you should take your own suggestions?

If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then

(as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express)

"You Better take Jesus With You"

Peace

Who exactly is it that you think it is that motivates exposing the sinful and destructive practices of TWI? Jesus Christ? Or the flaming head of Jerry Garcia in a vision? Or is it Satan? I'll tell you there are varying opinions on that. I know who motivates it for me.

"Today if you will hear his voice,

harden not your hearts"

I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987.

But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.

Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and of itself as a clear reason to bring it all back up now. There are many details in his podcast that never have been brought up before. What's your motive in questioning?

Yes.

It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst.

But Why,

now that he wants to speak up,

does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd?

After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief.

As are most people who have a conscience's heart. They grieve the injustice, and the years and effort spent supporting such charlatans. This is a godly thing.

Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to.

That's where the genuine healing is.

Yes, pal.

I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski.

I am just seeing other things under the surface.

Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts.

What is really behind this message?

What's behind your message besides a veiled reference to a mote in your brother's eye? What does this veiled reference accomplish other than to discredit his account?

Why is it that every genuine heart sharing here on GS seems to have people needing to attack it and discredit it immediately afterwards, all in the name of Jesus purporting to bring "healing" and "forgetting the past"?

Most people here have had enough of people trying to silence the atrocities commited by the leadership of TWI by sweeping them under a carpet, paying off millions in lawsuit settlements with believers ABS, and talking about some nebulous concepts of healing and forgetting the past. They could experience that in the organization.

People don't hide behavior that's appropriate, they hide behavior that is inappropriate. When the inappropriate behavior is brought to light, people can make better decisions than when it was hidden.

Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?

I think not.

We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth.

We are even more blessed to have recognized

and pulled down

those things contrary to the obedience of Christ.

That is a day by day and thought by thought process my friend - pulling down strongholds, casting down imaginations, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Well if I've learned anything,

it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out.

and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years.

So write him a letter or give him a call. Asking about it in this forum in response to a sharing he made on events in the past serves nothing but to cast doubt on what he did share.

His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church.

Which Church is this you speak of? TWI? Another Christian group? The body of Christ as described in the Bible? If the latter, how can you purport to speak for the entire body of Christ to say he has not been communicating Christ? Does casting doubt upon your brother in Christ somehow bring Christ more clearly into the picture? If so, please enlighten us how.

It's clear that you don't want to answer the questions. It's clear that Jesus or his followers did not spend their days talking about personal evil day in day out , that's what is clear. It's clear that their warnings were to the point and then the focus was not continously on the sins of others but upon helping. Anyone can run their mouth about someone elses sins. that does not take much effort. If you want to stay stuck talking about others sins fine. Dont try to pass it off as something Jesus would do clearly he did not engage in such actions. Jesus helped those in need he did not set them down and tell them all of Herod's sins thinking that would somehow help them.

Have you not read Matthew 23, where Jesus confronts the scribes and Pharisees in detail? Very interesting read. He uses the words as a figure of speech "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" 8 times. This represents a new beginning. He teaches in detail to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

So by your logic, Jesus himself spent a significant amount of time "running his mouth about someone else's sins", and that doesn't take much effort.

The Bible speaks differently. Considering deeply in detail all of the leaven of the Pharisees, as well as highlighting in detail the hypocrisy they functioned with in the outward appearance being godly but the inner reality being evil, can be healing. It can present a new beginning to people.

In this thread, Kristen's account presents a story that unfolds to detail out this exact hypocrisy. The accounts of abuse people have suffered can be healing to those who have suffered similarly. It can expose evil which previously was unexposed. It can help people leave, and stop supporting evil with their time, effort and money. That is a good thing.

Enlightening account of events surrounding that time. Additional info I learned by the accounts were that all BOT / BOD were aware of adultery doctrine and practices, Donna was in the Yak twig and thus aware as well, and the extremity of the viciousness that is wrapped within the corporate culture when one loses favor with whoever is perceived to be in power. Those are reasonably established facts.

They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed? Donna and Rosie must have lied about Donna's knowledge of the adultery practices to justify her staying at HQ. She has a top administrative executive position now. When people lose favor there is still a viciousness of treatement. So lies, political posturing, and viciousness. All ingrained in a corporate culture that was developed in the '70's and has not changed. People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it. And the fact that time has passed before these accounts were detailed and questioning the purpose. By the same logic, we should discount reading the gospels because they were written possibly 60 years or so after the events occurred. I'm sure the Sanhedrim would question the accounts and accuracy in the gospels, as it would discredit their position of political power.

Ralph comes across to me as a man governed more by his inner conscience and ethics of morality established as a Christian man than a man governed by political posturing. That is to his credit. He has even rightfully through this questioning asked some root core questions about establishing ministries as his reasons for not jumping on a spinoff bandwagon. Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

Foundatio Nal Class ? What does the "N" stand for?

I really have no idea. It's just the abbreviation they use on blue forms when somebody registers.

Maybe its a secret code that unlocks the hidden 'extra special' Genesis 3 interpretations in the class. All done in interpretive dance.

Where's the power?

In the Energizer 'D' batteries. Where else?

Even more interesting is the current lawsuit TWI has against insurance companies who don't seem to want to provide coverage for their BOD for some reason....

chockfull,

there's a new class called FNC?

what does FNC stand for?

Just letters standing for the Foundational Class on the Way of Abundance and Power (FNC), or Foundational Class. It is videotaped so no longer taught live, by 3 teachers, and is basically the same as the Martin@le class, minus a couple things.

Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep

wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.

Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...

Eye witness accounts here on the boards say that Donna and Rosie have been chummy for years. In some peoples' minds, a little TOO chummy if you get my drift. Even before Craig left, they were known to take shopping trips together, vacation together, sharing one hotel room... Could be nothing. But the fact that Rosalie had two well-known (supposedly ex-)lesbians living in the basement of her home for years, and the fact that Craig had such a hatred of homosexuals does make it look a certain way...

Interesting...

So one possibility is that the 2 living in the basement (sharing 1 bed) potentially could have had something on Rosie & Donna such as knowing the true nature of their relationship, and so were protected. Craig's hatred of homos AND the kind of out there interpretation in his FNC of the original sin being lesbianism could point to him knowing about such a relationship, yet with those 2 having all the dirt on his escapades being powerless to do anything about it besides rant like a lunatic. The basement duo survived all the purges at HQ, and Janet even provided a lot of 'genuine spiritual suspicion' evidence (takes one to know one). Rosie gave them a lavish banquet when they left that nobody there could understand. There is evidence (can see on Wikipedia and published in a newspaper) that Rosie knew of Craig's escapades by 1995. It's quite a stretch to think that she wouldn't have told her good 'friend' Donna, and they potentially may have known years before this. Then they conspired to oust Craig. The reason given Donna didn't have to leave with Craig was 'she didn't know about it'. Yeah right. They've ousted more people than that for 'lack of CP1'. I hear in the new FNC they took out the lesbianism in Gen 3, and removed Craig's closing the class with Romans 1. Everything else is pretty much intact.

In my opinion spin is a political term, and is a way to influence and control public perception. The argument is that one doesn't have to spin something inherently good, it stands on its own merits. We seek "the real thing", not something that has to be spun. However, that is all too rare where people are involved.

Pocket Full of Kryptonite

Now that album by the Spin Doctors, in my opinion, definitely stands on its own merit. Snappy beats, good crunch warm guitars, intriguing lyrics. Overall good sound.

Joel 2:25-27 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Catcup,

I like your posts, and I share your sentiments. For my life, what I struggle with is that I think those many years ago I was praying to God and following God. I don't know what happened, but somehow really want to believe that all things work together for good for us that love God and are called according to His purpose. It's just that years ago His purpose and TWI's purpose diametrically divurged for me, and I've since learned all this stuff about how the corrupt roots extend way back to the highest and earliest, how a lot was plagiarized, the sex scandals, the homo stuff that's probably still going on. I just have to believe that somehow God has protected my heart and that all that scripture I worked at learning is worth something. Why should their pathology be mine? But maybe I'm just chockfull of nuts and in need of therapy.

Hey, I just got back to GS and I am excited to see that excath and dog lover responded to my post. You see, my post was meant to be a test within a test.

Yanagisawa, I've got a test myself. It's a really cool one, involving a bucket of water, a car battery, jumper cables, and someone's testicles. We'd all like you to participate.

And to stay on track on this thread, it's unfortunate this wronged man wasn't able to perform this kind of test on the veepster when he was still alive.

Thats just it there are no facts presented...... Only a one sided version. Or what they thought they may have heard or at least maybe understood them to mean or well hey they made me wash my face once and I didn't like that so what the hell I'll just say anything cause I don't like that person. So Drew Peterson says he did nothing to his wife or wives by your standard do we just believe his facts of his experiance? Maybe you should call the police and let them know that what he says is truth because he says so . They wont be needing any facts to get in the way of his experiance.

WhiteDove, my speculation is that you work for the public relations department at TWI.

What exactly is so wrong or evil about a one-sided story? We never get to hear both sides, and not the other side, as TWI and leaders there are too busy with the silent treatment and damage control tactics. Hell how many people have they paid off in lawsuits to keep from having both sides of the story exposed for all to see and make their own judgements?

What we have here at GS is a little bit of an exposure site. So people who want nothing more than forget their experiences with TWI and move on come on here, find similar stories of evil functioning, get incensed, post their experiences, feel better about themselves, and move on.

But as for you, to quote Shakespeare,

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Hamlet Act 3 Scene 2

Jeff

Since you are throwing my name about I'll remind you that I never put down anyone here . I simply asked that if someone was accusing another of a crime ,or any likewise serious charge ,they should in a public format have some documentable evidence to back up their story . This is common place in the media and a reasonable request. I doubt you would feel so compelled to accept the heat as you put it if I were to accuse you of being a child molester. I'm guessing that you would want some explanation why I thought so, some reason for my accusation maybe? I was hurt, can I just say anything I want about you and you'll just let it slide? Doubtful.........

And again, since we are going over this one more time, the point here on this forum is that the burden for proof here on an anonymous public internet forum is NOT the same as it is in a court of law, or in a journalistic publication such as a newspaper. It's lower.

What that means is that you have plenty of hurt people who have a venue to vent their feelings at what happened to them, receive some support, and help heal.

And you have a number of pinheads on here who like to attack those people's stories, discount them, try and uphold standards for accusations that don't apply, and in general behave like buttheads in many ways exactly like the insensitive morally depraved control freak morons who hurt them in the first place.

And that of course is why people post their stories here and then leave.

But maybe that's the intent of the buttheads. Damage control for TWI, trying to discount stories by these tactics, and drive away people so more aren't affected.

break it down.

vpw died . people left no one has ever been able to find him guilty of any crime.

uh, yeah. because dead people are prosecuted all the time in our society. right?

lcm was sued in in a CIVIL court of which the details and evidence is never going to be disclosed they settled out of court hello.

settled means no one is found guilty they settled their issues without a judge ruling ANYTHING!!!!

on top of that the details of the suit are not to be known by anyone and are sealed.

so along comes gs to fill in the blanks with what ever imagination or speculation they think or heard or whatever.

part of the pattern of abuse is to call real things that happened to people imagination or speculation. that's what twi leaders have done, except where they've had to accept and sign the lawsuit settlement papers. even then how it was publically handled is by presenting a victory that they were settled.

no crimes were cominted by record.

not exactly" evil atrocities" in my book.

internet folly and fun to read sure but no one really made any changes in anything by bitching on a thread.

like twi Greaspot is a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.

i beg to differ. speaking up always has value, and many times catalyzes changes not immediately seen.

the founding fathers of our country were a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.

certainly the king of england wanted to dismiss them. they became a burr under his saddle and took his power,

in the process establishing a great country.

nothing world changing about twi or greaspot Rascal. yes we do see different perspectives.

I think what helps is the wonderful front page pawtucket has set up with his papers and resources now that is helpful.

the constant ranting of invisable people with no names making accusations without merit really doesnt rock the cult world as much as you believe.

rock on.

the accusations most certainly have merit. they have proven so legally. they have merit in thwarting further abuse. stories like these are used all the time in the business world to educate buyers. they are called "customer reviews". they affect the ability to sell the product.

If any other secret society comes to mind please reply.

The Illuminati. Or the Templars. But I'm not sure if that comes from TWI, or simply the cool dreams I've had since watching the latest "National Treasure" movie.

your not alone Rascal

As jesus said to the crowd with stones ready to kill a woman full of "atrocities" they had every legal right to kill her with the stones, you know she was a very bad woman in the eye of the law and God.

He never told them they didnt have a right to punish or hate only those who had never sinned to go first.

He forgave her Rascal, so imagine that.

the entire bible is a book about God redeeming worthless man back to His love.

do not make this about how i must idol vpw I do not BUT i do listen and learn from what the LORD did and how he instructed us in his scriptures

How sweet. pond is projecting the past abuses pond committed onto the woman caught in adultery, and is subconsciously repenting and asking all of us for forgiveness.

How kind, loving, and honorable, pond. And of course, we all forgive you. Now, go and sin no more.

Ho, ho, ho and a Merry Christmas to all. Mistletoe, eggnog with rum, lots of presents, cookies and milk for Santa.

Family, fun, and the joy of childhood.

And if it's all of pagan origin then God bless the pagans who helped establish a tradition that gives me days off of work and a fun time with my family.

-CF

"Dedicated to putting the X back in Xmas."