chockfull

From my perspective, clinical psychology does offer genuine help in recovery from groups like TWI. Whether it is identifying characteristics of groups that commonly cause psychological trauma, identifying external resources for additional help, or mental and emotional viewpoints or exercises that help people move on, all can potentially have a benefit. It may not be necessary that the individual has specific TWI experience. For example, the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is a book written by a couple of people involved in starting and running a small community church. Yet parallels abound that specifically apply to TWI.

With respect to the profession and offering it here, I would suggest that John is only doing target marketing for his services. He is doing marketing here, and he is selling a service. On a forum that is more or less dedicated to recovery from and discussion of an abusive group I would suggest that it is nothing more or less than target marketing. He is making a step towards people on this forum in this fashion. Yes it is true he doesn't post here regularly, so his commitment level towards understanding TWI specifically and the details of it and recovery is unknown at this time. I'm sure as with any profession, the more detailed his understanding of TWI is the better the help will be.

I don't think target marketing should be understood as anything different than what it is - offering a service to a market segment. In this field, like in accident injury cases (someone mentioned ambulance chaser lawyers) the market segment is hurt or injured people. So only an individual's personal ethics can determine what genuinely is the difference between caring about people in detail in offering a service and being a businessman first who cares less. The end product, or "fruit" becomes evident with time.

If we as a community want to preseve this forum as more of a pure "self-help" type, we could request to Paw that it be advertisement free, or construct another forum subsection that is dedicated to that type of thing. Until then I would suggest just viewing this thread as an advertisement thread that may or may not pertain to individuals.

These people. What they say with their mouth and how they live in their life are so vastly different it's nauseating.

When I think of these topics, one of the verses that is the most comforting is Joel 2:25:

"And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you"

I look forward to with anticipation God restoring to me the years the worms have eaten.

"Hello, my name is chockfull, and my best longsuit in abilities is in smelling bullsh1t. How I plan to implement it is by saving my nose".

I agree with all the previous posters who have said TWI was rotten to begin with.

The only thing not rotten were the hearts of those who genuinely loved God who were duped. At some point I believe every one of them has the opportunity to look at and be disgusted with how they are living as Christians and to stop lying to themselves.

"believers" were taught to use their unbelieving parents to support them through corps training, then to carry mortgages for them because while it's not ok for a "believer" to have debt, it's ok to have someone else take on a debt to benefit you. so now that the parents are passing away from old age, the believers will have to start tapping their only other resource, their children, so they can remain holy and unblemished in doing the lord's work by giving to that stupid organization what they should be saving for their own later days.

This is one of the most classical Pharisee-like functioning of TWI people and especially leadership there is. Leaders who have family members - brothers, sisters, parents - carry mortgages for them so they can basically own a home and bypass the debt policy. At the same time they look down the nose at those who carry mortgages in their own names, and don't allow them to attend stupid boring Advanced Class specials or function in any leadership capacity like a fellowship coordinator on up.

It is completely contrary to scriptures - very clear ones. Look up "surety" in Proverbs. And yet you have people from fellowship coordinators all the way up to Region coordinators that have functioned like this for years.

brainfixed,

Good stuff. I have a couple things to add from talking things over with friends who work in psychology fields regarding behavior modification. A common tactic is to make the changes or concessions to behavior small and many. So the abuser asks for just a small concession to make them happy. "Just do this for me - it's not much to ask". Then when the victim grows comfortable with that, another small request. Over time, these small concessions turn into a huge deviation from what a person would normally out of common sense agree to from a simple moral perspective or a perspective that puts one's self and family at the center of decisions. But the brunt of the requests are never to go from the norm to the outer extremes, it's incremental. "Well, it's just a small change". This is the unhealthy cycle of abuse where the abuser bends the victim more and more to their will and the victim justifies it.

In TWI, this behavior modification centers around the political structure of the organization. Politics and bribery drive TWI. The bribery has financial components, and even more emotional components. This is in direct contrast to a healthy service from love perspective. TWI has moved away from "It Is Written" as a standard for their leadership to "It Is Position". It very much has turned exactly into what VP used to criticize about the Catholic church - their priorities are 1) Pope speaking ex-cathedra 2) Traditions of the church 3) The Bible. And with the priority being such, this basically discounts any God-inspired individual armed with the scriptures from being able to speak up about any practices. As what the Bible says matters less than how it fits in to traditions and traditional decisions, and all of that has to be checked with the one in power speaking ex-cathedra.

It results in things you see today - like teachers at an Advanced Class Special teaching at a dull and dumbed down 3rd grade perspective, the mind-numbing articles in magazines all that are less challenging than an average Sunday school class for middle schoolers in chuch. People never speaking up. Scriptures being ignored and brushed off with phrases like "we're not working that topic now". And this behavior is modeled all the way throughout the organization to various degrees. You may have some variation in the ego and despotism that some local leader functions with, but to maintain their little local fiefdom they conform that way upwards, and eventually downwards too.

It's all just one huge ball of Pharisees and vipers - something to pray to God to be delivered from - like 2 Thess 3:2 speaks of - to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.

I still, 14 years later, wonder sometimes if I'm going to he11 or outside of God's favor.

Meanwhile God is up in heaven giving you a standing ovation round of applause for your love for your husband and family and your tireless efforts to fight for them despite all odds. And your sense of community and involvement with other Christians who are the salt of the earth that we can find so easily in all our communities.

How come this stuff always reminds me of the Matrix?

Because it's astonishing how people can see all the tubes and artificial world and still take the blue pill and fall happily back to sleep?

People who should really grow some friggin' balls and take the red pill, but don't out of fear and complacency?

DWBH,

Amen, brother.

It was at least implied positions would circulate more. Young folks were coming up with all sorts of damned ideas. People have been expecting rosie to step aside for a long time.

her role as "healer of the ministry" as was prophesied is supposedly done

B,

What they say in a public forum and what they do behind the scenes is vastly different. Those in top positions - ESPECIALLY RFR - are there because they have politically maneuvered themselves there. They will not give up their power. That line sounds like it's some kind of excuse for her to control behind the scenes as the Chairman of the Board while not having to have any day to day responsibility as a president. The control and the power remain.

I have never heard any "prophesy" regarding RFR that contained a reference to her being a "healer of the ministry". I did hear a word of prophecy in the ceremony at her installation about "prophet and pastor", but that was by okie boy whose judgement and connection to God have to be severely questioned due to his other activities at the time. I could certainly see some of the more impassioned butt kissers saying something of that nature. But honestly, that phrase just makes me want to puke. It's such a 100% lie. How many lives have been ruined, destroyed, defamed, and denigrated by that Jezebel? Healer? A fitting result would to be having the dogs eat her just like the person she most resembles in the Bible. God is a just God - these people will be rewarded according to their fruit and works, not by anything we do on this earth.

Sorry - didn't mean to soapbox - I just had to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

I don`t know about *content to stay* Most people that I knew were flat out afraid to leave the hedge of God`s protection that surrounded them as long as they were in twi. To leave meant to open the door to satan, to die.

It reminds me of all those polygamist cults with the women whose personality has been completely washed out. The thousand-mile stare, the concern for the "family" over any personal rights, the groupthink. The fear of the unknown.

Maybe I'm out of circulation lately, but I've not heard that this was the real reason why Harve was replaced. I've always wanted to know, since he seemed to be doing fine....even helped and was very encouraging for a few people I spoke to. How sure are you that this was the reason? Not to doubt, but would like to know.

Are you asking if you called her on the phone and asked that question would she confirm it? hahaha. Was that stated to a group of people like the Corps? No. They handle all of those things with zero explanation and refuse to answer direct questions about it from anyone. The only statement I heard directly repeated was she said that BOD "was not a lifetime position" when explaining that decision. After which she pretty much positioned herself to be "Chairman of the Board" yet not have to do any work personally for basically a lifetime position. Am I sure myself? Yes. Can I prove it? Nope.

It doesn't take much to get demoted and defamed. I guess if the bobblehead doesn't bobble with quite the speed it has in the past, that's enough to do it. Boy, now isn't that a leadership team that you'd be dying to be a part of?

One very funny related thing to transcripts - which I guess they can ignore any request for as they don't have any accrediting organization they are accountable to or play all sorts of stupid games...

To get accredited would mean actually attracting and retaining people of intellectual capacity that have PhD's to teach courses. The funny thing is that the higher educated level people really have a hard time buying any of TWI's definitions of "quality", "research", and are far too intelligent to fall for the amount of control and emotional bribery there is latent within the organization.

It does seem to be quite a waste of time taking all those "classes".

Chockfull... I didn't mean to say we should disregard the homosexual possiblities between Donna and Rosalie (I happen to agree there is a lot of evidence intimating such a relationship) I just meant in addition to that, to my mind, these two are bonded together by even more dark and dirty secrets.

I would love to sit the pair of them down with some veritas serum-laced tea!

Yeah, they know where the bodies are buried, in addition to having buried some themselves.

Leaving all possible homosexual theories aside for the moment, I have to think that Rosalie suddenly offered herself as a knowing shoulder to Donna... a friend who understood things that most of us weren't even aware of... one who could keep the deepest, darkest secrets... after all, both Rosalie and Donna were in the inner circle of the creepy old men, and didn't this friendship bloom in the midst of Craig's wildest dalliances and delusions? -- It's sad and it's sick, but it's kinda understandable.

Well there's a couple of things there that make me wonder. R has always been adamant about not having her picture on the internet - perhaps someone from her past might find her? An old girlfriend? There's quite a few things that support the homo theory. Two ladies 'formerly' lesiban + 1 bed + R's basement? Vacations with Donna sharing the same bed for a week? Other ladies walked in on making out who are doing prominent teachings and have high level jobs. Also, okie boy's going off the deep end on some of the homo stuff that you can read transcripts on, especially the lesbian side. What set him off to that extent? Things don't happen for no reason. Did he discover the relationship yet they had the goods on him with all his extracurricular activity so he was powerless? Also interesting what R removed from the FNC class - the newer one now. Gone are any Eve + serpent lesbian encounters. Gone is the closing of the class with reading of Romans 1 - including the homo part of it. Now granted some of that 'research' was skating on thin ice. But no more than other things that were left in the class. Peleg - one land mass theories, gas hydrates, etc.

Do the WayGB still actively monitor this site?

Here's a couple thoughts. If you've ever had a security job you know that many times at least trying to stay awake is the most difficult part of the job. What do you think some of the security people are doing to fill up their time? Solitaire gets old after a while.

maybe he could put a copy of atheletes of da spirit on his resume. Do you suppose some big outfit on broadway will clamor to his door to produce some kind of song and dance show?

Hahaha - can you see that on "America's Got Talent"???? That would be hilarious seeing Hasselhoff give him the big red X after 2.3 seconds....

I doubt you're going to get any accurate reading on numbers even with innies who have access to that. All the current field employees inflate the numbers, refuse to remove people from lists, include those who went to 1 meeting last year, etc. They preserve their own paycheck in this fashion. They aren't real active numbers. Last I heard, the trunk had to give the OK to remove anyone from their lists.

skyrider - a lot of good points. my main point in the quote was to contrast RFR's behavior of keeping ownership of her own home built with the same kind of manual labor you describe accurately on vp's farm.

just wonder.. what's the plan. When rosie the ribitter croaks her final one.. who's next in line? I mean.. who do they think has the supposed "competence" to continue to run a sad, aging, failed organization even further into the ground?

Or do they even have a plan?

rosie's "renewed mind excellence" won't exactly keep her hopping, and on the throne forever..

Plan is now with a "Board" that she can hang on to power as long as possible while transferring any responsibility away. Of the VP bobbleheads Rupp has the greatest political ambition and machiavellian maneuvering. But who knows.

One thing is sure - like Jesus said of the Pharisees in Matt 23:15 that they make their proselytes twofold more the child of hell than themselves that anyone coming up through the training and ranks there are currently that the prediction is definitely "WOE".

kinda reminds me of the loyster's claims how fortune 500 companies oughter be clamoring for his "expertise"..

he would not survive the first five minutes of an interview..

It is amazing how what was passed off as "quality" that the world can not duplicate in all of these endeavors really turns out to be second or third-rate product with a lot of hype.

None of these hotshots would even land a C level interview with a medium sized company. Any fortune 500 company would sift their resume to the scrap pile faster than anything.

Since 1986.

RFR formed an "alliance" or "friendship" with D0nn@ M and through this procured a position as the leader of the Trustee Cabinet. From that position, when Don W's health turned worse she vied for and stepped into VP position. Howard was replaced by John R as a retirement type of decision by okie. When the first lawsuit came out and Way lawyers forced a deposition and account of all improprieties from okie boy in front of trustees, RFR used this as leverage to convince okie to step down, and that she was the logical choice as 3rd prez.

ALL SUBSEQUENT CHANGES have been initiated, decided, and driven by RFR. There is technically a majority vote, but as she has filled positions with those who will not stand up to her that is an irrelevant point. She chose Platig as a prime bobblehead yes-man to her, which he dutifully fulfilled for a time. She drove banishing okie and keeping D0nn@ on (so much for Corps policies regarding marriage). She replaced okie's treasurer John R after building up a bogus case on his personal life and demoted him to a staff department head position. She brought on De-Lisle as a personal choice. Platig started having misgivings about the accuracy of the debt "research". She demoted him to region coord, and replaced him with R4pp. They added McF around Indiana campus sale as another loyal bobblehead. And Mittler through all the physical / building project stuff - again one who functions under directives well. RFR functions as all good political despots have through history - Hitler, Stalin, Lenin. Encourage free exchange of ideas through open speech, through that identify those who oppose your viewpoints or present alternative ideas, and systematically attack and eliminate them. Retain all completely compliant as your top level people. The view of consequences consistently keeps free speech out.

Her initial platform was balancing things out by removing all the power from one - the main teacher and main administrator being different. Functionally she moved behind the scenes to garner all the power and move the main teacher function into a spread out function of many with no power. Easier for her - she doesn't have to prepare quality teachings regularly, and can work behind the scenes controlling and driving everything. This is why all the current teachings are so horribly bland and scripted. All pre-submitted, recorded, and approved by one person.

Why we bought it?

We were young, impressionable, seeking good, and we didn't listen to our parents.

I don't know that this is the "right" place for this or not, but this is where I posted something that was personal to me.

The gal I spoke of who was my leadership, and instructed me to do those things, who yelled and kicked me and at times treated me very badly, e-mailed me today.....Coincidence? I don't think so.

In her e-mail she was at her "bottom". And she was reaching out to Me to help her. She sounds alone, desperate, and confused.

And I am going to try and help her. It's the Right thing to do....and I do have compassion for her. It was just sooo strange that I hear from her after I had posted my personal story. I think it's God and I think it's about forgiveness. As I said before, we need each other...in order to heal.

To end the cycle of abuse and victimization will require professional help. Those that are or who have been in that direct cycle in the past are themselves not best equipped to provide that type of help. Although some of the reading materials recommended here are good - like "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse".