chockfull

Umm, victim, no. Scumbag and loser, yes.

Just because twi has millions, doesn't mean anyone is living like a millionaire. Maybe vpw and lcm did. But not now. Rosie supposedly has her own funding and drives and Oldsmobile. Donn@ lives in a dorm. Rosie has a boat, but it ain't twi property as far as I know. They work long hours like everyone else. The board might live a little better, but really not that much, insignificant by today's standards. Heck, Pl@tig couldn't keep up with the work load when rfr was out of town. (I guess he went south)

Taking money away, I don't know what that could accomplish.

Rosie has money from inheritance which she used to purchase land. TWI staff built her house for her with free labor - she paid for materials. This level of hypocrisy cries from the rooftops for her to dwell in a cieled house while adamantly opposing those in TWI from having a mortgage as the only viable option for them to own houses. Rosie has her own boat which she stores on TWI property as opposed to needing to pay for moorage. She has servants take care of her house and do all maintenance without paying for it. She does not incur a fraction of the normal costs of living people living in the real world do as she has so many perks included that are all under the table. And like the megalomaniacs that preceded her the absolute authority she's garnered to herself have many practically worshipping her like a goddess. It is vomit inducing.

The reason she works long hours at times is because by nature she is one of the most controlling individuals on the planet. EVERY decision goes across her desk. High levels of control, low levels of service. And a position of absolute authority. Control freaks always seem to have a lot of work because it takes a lot of effort doing everyone else's job for them. There is a lot of activity, but little really produced. It also sucks the life out of anyone with ability or talent. It is a complete collectivist culture, and individualism is attacked. Polar opposites of how Jesus Christ walked around on earth. Polar opposites of how the apostle Paul lived. Paul spoke of people like this when he stated after a Jerusalem visit that they seemed to be somewhat but added nothing to him. In all actuality, how they live there is more of a pattern of what you see in Jerusalem at the end of Acts. It is not "It Is Written", it is "It Is Position". Who says something is ultimately more important than the truth of what is said. In that you see the model of the Roman Catholic Church and their priority of decisions 1) What the Pope says, 2) Tradition of the Church, and 3) Scriptures. TWI absolutely functions like that currently and most of the time in the past too with exceptions where genuine people within that devilish structure could act out of the love of God. Those leaders are the Pharisees of Pharisees, and those they raise up like Jesus Christ said will be 3-fold the children of hell they themselves are. Politics, bribery, building of fiefdoms - you have it all there, with legacy money backing it.

VPW on the other hand, when receiving the inheritance of his family farm donated all of it to TWI. At least the old lecher was all in to what he was doing. He could have kept so much for himself and his own family.

Nowadays they all hide money away and retain lawyers. The salary structure of the top TWI leaders is markedly above the workers who are almost poverty level. And the cost of living is low too. President's Cabinet members are buying houses with cash from the salaries they've saved up, while the poor idiot on the field struggles to work long hours at a normal job or two, raise a family and then spend all spare time attending a fellowship and meeting the requirements of their curriculum and on top of that all the time required to shine up to the local leader so you don't get burned and defamed by their strong-arm tactics. Just the problems of countries without a democracy. There is no middle class in TWI spritually and even more and more culturally and physically either. The middle class are smarter than to subject themselves to the kind of control they observe.

The Pharisees used to build huge structures of other Pharisees around them. They would only do business with other Pharisees. This is the history of the "corban" Jesus confronted. If all business was only with other Pharisees all goods and services were tithe free. They could take a widow's last mite, yet themselves live on the fat. TWI is like that in many ways where they isolate themselves from direct contact with the despicable acts they initiate and so have the insolation of legal protection against those acts even if you have a legitimate case. This is the problem with trying to sue them right now - at best you're going to cause some lower level goon to be disciplined because they were stupid enough to do what they were told and loyal enough to "protect the ministry" and take the consequences.

A lot of all that is why I think most people have just adopted the stance of just letting go and letting God deal with it. I'll be a witness against them at the bema. For now I can build my own life in positive directions like many of you are doing.

She was supposed to put a second book out. I believe her passing prevented that.

Or maybe they kept trying to get her to and she put them off until she was no longer able.

A couple of things.

The mods make the decisions to not allow someone to post. And I am one of them. Voting on it just seems wrong to me.

White Dove was not banned. I have to approve his posts before they go public.

Excathedra really brings up the heart of the matter. Someone sharing something that is painful and personal, and having them attacked by fellow posters is just wrong. Opinions are one thing, trying to play defense attorney for TWI on here is quite another. One thing that TWI instilled in people is this false sense of self-righteousness. Not even closely biblical, it is probably delusional. I can't and won't try to change people, people have to do that on their own. There is more than ample information here to make an educated decision on what you believe in relationship to TWI.

On the subject of banning. In the mission, "All are welcome here" that was and is true. It does NOT say "All are welcome to POST here" Certain individual want to make this a court of law, it is not that. Never will be. I just decided that enough is enough. White Dove was given many warnings. He wants this forum to be something that it is not. He knows that. My offer to let him have his own forum still stands.

The decisions made by the moderating team are not going to please everyone. I wish they could, but the reality is they won't.

Since I was the one talking bans I just wanted to say the voting aspect would be there to express the collective opinion of people posting on the site, and would be something to forward to a moderator to consider the appropriate action to take against an individual.

Ban, moderate posts, or whatever course of action necessary - I'm glad I brought it up. Having to argue every little point with these two on here is a complete waste of time. Maybe this type of action will reign them in a little.

Beyond that, from my perspective I'm certainly not important enough where I think moderators need to please me with their actions. Run your site and your forums as you see fit. I'm glad they are around.

I have a few questions for the innies among us:

1. Is Way Corps training held at HQ and not at Gunnison?

2. Have the "tree" terms, i.e. trunk, limb etc been totally done away with?

3. Are the titles, President, Vice President or Secretary Treasurer being used at all?

4. What is the difference between the Candidate and Apprentice Way Corps years?

Thanks

Oak, I'm not an innie but have enough contact with people who are to know a lot of this stuff.

1. Yes - Corps at HQ as of a couple years ago. Gunnison is only a vacation spot now where they run classes. No BOD member there anymore.

2. No, still in force.

3. Well, last year yes. This year the BOD is a new structure where the 5 pompous @sses are just "Board Members" with R0sie 0'Donnell R1venbark as the "Chairman of the Board". They even have new titles, like Donna as "Chief Administrative Officer" - hahahaha, and a CFO. They have people running things for them with titles. It's still all about politics and shining up to the right people.

4. Candidate = like old Apprentice year in local areas. Apprentice = assigned to go out Way Disciple and run a team. 2 yrs in-residence, then graduate. The old pillars are trying to convince their kids to go in now, with little success as Gen X/Y seem to have a few more brain cells than allowing all that control over them.

since i have never seen the book, nor do i have a copy,.........i happily defer to anyone here who has a copy of the book to let us know if the "he was a mean man" comment made by dotsie about her beloved, lifelong, faithful spouse, der victoid.

You know, Don, one interesting thing about that book is that it only covers time prior to the hippie days of the 70's. I've always wondered if that was because Dorothy felt that the time before VP got his motorcoach and started acting like Hugh Hefner was the only genuine part of the man and any positive influence he had. I always thought she was a sweet lady and was glad to know her, but in all honesty she probably was an enabler, if due nothing more to the strong character of the culture she grew up in preventing her from leaving him.

What despicable people these were.

Yeah, when you get to thinking about it everybody looked at them like the next incarnation of the apostle Paul, yet in reality you could probably go into any random church in any town and pick out any random Christian that would have twice the moral Christian character of any of these idiots.

It was the personal attacks on a user who disclosed a personal story that caused them pain. Whether that is ban-worthy or not is not up to us, and there are other things that can be done (e.g. asking the offender to apologize) that don't require silencing anyone.

I guess the bottom line is that WhiteDove and oldiesman p!ss me off, without question. However, I would be uncomfortable banning them from this site and if such a vote were put in front of us all, I would abstain from voting.

Yes, what bothers everyone is pretty universal. The problem with asking these two to apologize is it's never going to happen, along with them never stopping this type of activity. How long have we read this same type of drivel from these two? I mean one guy has a business interest to protect, and the other is probably a current TWI leader with a lot of time on their hands living off the ABS thinking they're 'protecting the ministry' by attacking victims.

What exactly do they add to these forums?

I believe the purview for banning, whether temp or perm, from this site is the admin of the site. I think this is as it should be and not up to a community vote. While I have no love for either of those mentioned below - I would not want it to be a community vote. Given the daily hassles that often surface here, if it was a community vote there'd be 20 nominations a day for banning. If you read many of the associated previous posts I think the community has already expressed its displeasure.

Sure - I'm glad paw doesn't ban people quickly. I also agree that the normal squabbles that go on shouldn't be a cause to ban someone, or that community votes should be the method.

Attacking a victim, now, in my opinion is a different story. I had enough of people attacking victims and covering up their actions in TWI. I don't need that kind of thing having discussions and/or debates on a site that is the only place that allows the uncovering of the BS. Everybody is pretty much sick of the pseudo courtroom type of posturing going on with these two clowns which completely bypass the intent of any law which is to provide a level playing field, not to cover up witness testimony.

I mean, as much as it pains me to not provide a smoke screen for someone to peddle their old bootleg collections of VPW teachings and materials by keeping the VPW hype alive, I think I could live with that to get rid of some of the static. (OK, maybe it doesn't pain me that much). I'd just prefer that people's stories are allowed to be shared without the attacks.

Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action.

Temp ban them for being bullies and continuously spewing the same BS attacking victims and acting like courtroom lawyers.

Maybe if you temp ban them that will communicate what are acceptable posts. Or maybe they'll get all huffy and leave. Either way great.

Seeing it's your birthday, are you 65 yet? If so, you would be eligible for your own policy to step down from your high throne and become emeritus rather than continuing to garner power to yourself by placing yourself in the highest position you can. Do you plan to do this? If not, it is something you should seriously consider. There are broken lives and the innocent crying out which all witness against you calling for your demise. Listen to their voices and stop adding to their numbers. Since you have no idea how to do this, stepping down would be your best option.

That would indeed be a happy birthday.

That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal.

False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide.

Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand.

Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.

What is likely to happen is TWI consults with their Columbus attorneys, ABS $$ at work. They may or may not decide to draft some kind of ownership challenge letter to eBay. eBay probably has corporate policy in place for challenging ownership. They certainly have dealt with this before. eBay could potentially have liability making a mistake on either side - either as a fence for stolen goods, or for a lawsuit for opposing legal ownership sales. The latter would negatively affect their reputation as an online commerce entity, so they would likely pursue it rather than a policy like YouTube has - if you challenge video ownership, they take it down while it's being sorted out. There are real damages that could be made a case for if they take down an item for sale, so they likely have a level of burden of proof.

The real likely scenario is that because eBay has $$$$, TWI may not pursue it beyond an initial letter. They only pursue small entities with less resources that they think they can push around with their capital. You know, like widows, small businesses, poor individuals, small churches, etc. And TWI has become a lot better at disguising what they spend on legal endeavors. They control the flow of information to their followers. As an example, how many TWI followers do you think have read even the publicly available financial statement posted in another thread? I would guess next to none. They completely bury any potentially damaging numbers, like the cost of retaining attorneys in Columbus, or the cost of pursuing the insurance company that dropped them like a hot potato after all the lawsuit payouts. I think one of those legal lawsuit documents disclosed that the BOD spend like over $20,000 per year on liability insurance on themselves. I mean how would you feel as a follower to know that more than all your annual ABS goes towards providing insurance for BOD members potentially breaking the law and getting sued?

I do think it's interesting all of the detail regarding various blends of Unitarian logic. The main reason why is that seems to be the primary area that divides out all of the types of groups from mainstream Christianity. Many times people absorbed in this type of logic will live seperatist lives from mainstream Christians and avoid any kind of integration. Is Christ divided? Apparantly due to man's ego he appears to be.

Personally, most of the main concerns I have with STFI, TWI, etc., are the fruit which you see at the top leadership levels. People who feel they have been "called of God" and who amass political power in organizations seem to commit the greatest atrocities against their brothers and sisters in Christ. This can be true in trinitarian and unitarian organizations. STFI / CES you can read all the transcripts about personal prophecy, and how those "ordained" behave, prophecying against one another. In many cases what's in a person's heart associated with that seems to be more "entitlement". The megalomaniac viewpoint is that because they view their accumulated power as God given, those that present any form of opposition they view as opposing God, and therefore evil. Like the leaders at Jerusalem zealous for the law, they seemed to be somewhat as Paul states, but added nothing to him.

That's what I ask myself. What do these people add to our lives?

Which means claiming any guilt of a crime that was not, by your standards is delusional. It seems none has been established since no legal artifacts have been met. Therefore it is opinion.

No, it means claiming LEGAL guilt of said crimes is not provable. And trying to apply LEGAL standards to evaluation of the life of a deceased man is delusional. And you keep trying to steer the evaluation towards the LEGAL arena where it does not apply. The LEGAL arena could apply to the current behavior of TWI current leadership, and that is probably why they refuse to do much of anything in public.

It's very transparent that you have some kind of view of VPW that you are personally attached to that you need to preserve. This is why instead of allowing the public MORAL evaluation of VPW's life you try and discount his victims saying they present opinions only not fact, trying to steer the whole evaluation criteria under the purview of LEGAL standards. That is what is delusional.

I can judge VPW's life by whatever standards and criteria I damn well please. And 20+ years after his death his legacy is looking more and more like that of a drunken lecher that latched on to the Zeitgeist of the "free love Jesus movement" and took it for a ride for about 14 years from 1972 to 1986. And there's a reasonable case to be made that his totalitarian style of leadership combined with sexual deviancy is the primary thing that has been passed along to subsequent leadership administrations in TWI. These damn people act like they are more of an intermediary between the believer and the Lord Jesus Christ than a Catholic priest you have to confess your sins to.

We are not judging VPW guilty of LEGAL crimes. At times there is speculation as to how the man actually survived without any LEGAL consequences. Or get shot by someone he abused's relatives.

We are judging VPW guilty of MORAL crimes, based upon the testimony of many firsthand victims. He was a MORAL deviant. He was a totalitarian. LCM followed in his footsteps, and the current idiots also.

Your confused again, I never accused anyone of such rhetoric, what I did say and the record will bear out, is that one side of the story has been told only , and on the internet no less, and as such they are undocumented claims that have no hard physical evidence to establish them as fact or not, unless you have some you wish to offer of said claims. as such no claim of guilt has been established , Wierwille's state of life or death has nothing to do with documentation, one either has the evidence or not to present. Those that claim him guilty of crimes must satisfy their claim with the burden of proof. Other wise it is an opinion not conformation of guilt and should be noted as such.

That is true that there are undocumented claims by physical evidence. So because VPW is deceased, he doesn't seem to have anyone to be able to respond with facts to be able to refute the claims laid against him. Many people who were around during the timeframes of these accusations can provide corroboration of facts involved in the stories. Of course, it is very available for any of VPW's relatives, or current members of TWI to come forward in public and provide facts that would discount stories.

Trying to hold these claims to some level of legal standard is ludicrous. There is no court case as there is no defendant. That means there are no depositions, or any of the other legal artifacts that are a byproduct.

Which means that someone trying to apply those standards is delusional.

I find it surprising that some continue to misrepresent others point of view despite numerous times it has been clarified. It has been well established that I have never made claim that anyone was a liar, nor have I said anyone was. My claim has been consistent the information is not documented by any hard evidence.

But for the record I'll clarify again. What I said remains true and that is the claims have not been nor can they be proven or disproved they are undocumentable. You may choose to believe one side of the story the other has not been told, nor is it likely to for obvious reasons. What you or I choose to believe or accept does not guarantee truth it may or may not be so . It is neither proved right or wrong it is simply a testimony that has yet to be supported with actual factual evidence, nor stood the test of law. You choose to accept it because of your bias toward the group that does not make something true. No more so than someone's support of the same does. What you or I choose to believe is simply that what we choose to believe, that is not necessarily the same as true. Because it has not had the benefit of factual documentation, with due process of law, I choose to not pass judgments on undocumented personal testimony. Another words innocent until proven guilty. As such I can render the information neither true nor false so it remains undocumentable. (proven neither true or false) despite what one may believe one way or another

One of the difficult things is that the people in TWI leadership that have and continue to perpetrate, foment, and support these atrocities cover up their actions. They will not discuss actions publicly, or allow any factual evidence to come to light that they can control. They spin personal accounts, and continue to mark and avoid people, which closes the ranks around their version of facts. Part of this is due to fear of legal repurcusssions.

So reasonable logical people in the absense of actual factual evidence need to reconstruct factual evidence through sources that they judge as reliable although they may not be to the level required by a court. However, on the other side, court proceedings have leverage in place such as the deposition process and consequences for false or incomplete testimony that also are not available to the individual. In other words, that leverage makes it more difficult for leaders to lie to cover up their atrocities. A clear example of this is that leverage is what flushed out LCM acts which he previously lied about.

So whether or not individual detailed personal accounts of atrocities are "documentable" or not is irrelevant. In a public forum, they can be laid out for examination. If the leaders being accused want to refute the accuracy of these claims, they are certainly welcome to do so in the same public forum.

Thanks for the verse, Mark!!!

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

So how do I initiate dialog without stepping into trap by triggering their TWI-mental-reflexes? I don't want them to suddenly revert if I say something that might make them think I am "off the word" in a drastic way. I want to be careful to not attack TWI in case they end up defensive of it and start to go back. Dealing with innies, or newly ex-innies, can be difficult. I'm curious what you all would do and how you would talk to someone close about it.

I would say that open communication helps develop better relationships between people. Since they have not brought it up to volunteer information if you want that you would have to initiate it. Many times people aren't very good at talking freely to others - there are barriers. You have a barrier of fear here - that somehow asking them about their life might trigger a negative mental reflex. They have a barrier - maybe they are ashamed, hurt, etc. You never know that until talking about it.

I would say basically prepare what you want to ask and ask it. You can always ask "What happened?" questions in various forms, and "How do you feel about that?" and "What are you going to do now?" types of questions without needing to interject a soapbox stand of any kind.

Jeff,

Great job with how you're handling all this. You guys are in my prayers. Because of freedom of will there's not a whole lot you can do to affect the negatives from coming at you.

But you can focus on building the positives. I remember studying 2 Tim. 1:7 about fear as a negative and power, love, and a sound mind as positives. Sometimes it takes a lot more work in building the positives to overcome one negative. But that's how we'd rather live anyway. As you are faithful to build a positive continuing relationship with your son it will bear fruit.

-cf

Excellent points, Potato... especially since we know that twi and their minions did EXACTLY that in the Colorado custody case... had people sit on the stand and blatantly lie about what was said and what was practiced! (remember, this is where they said there was no such practice/teaching as "Mark and Avoid"!!!)

It's amazing the lengths deluded people will go to because they believe the end justifies the means.

And anyone who was around at the time knows that when twi saw the writing on the wall in the Allen case because of the deposed testimony of Craig and Rosalie, they decided to settle, they then went around crowing about how they WON and that the whole case was only about evil people trying to get money out of twi.

What's really funny about that one is that the damages were originallly set around $25M. The settlement was sealed, but speculation has it that it had to be upwards of $1M. Rosie and crew talked about how their insurance "paid" for it so they didn't have to use ABS money. However their "insurance" was very expensive to pay for, and for the later lawsuits the insurance company tried to drop them for cause. One of the unpublished lawsuits in play recently is TWI going after the insurance company for not covering damage settlements for one of the subsequent lawsuits. Tell me they aren't using "the tithe that doeth still provide" to pay lawyer fees, initially cover settlements, and buy expensive liability insurance for their abusive head honchos. That should really make people feel comfortable sending in their weekly check. NOT!!! They pay for that instead of putting on events for their people like they used to.

I understand the argument to uphold the sanctity of our judicial system. Despite its flaws I still believe its the best system devised yet. However, you cannot overlook the good use of media in getting pertinent information out that the wealthy or powerful wish to have suppressed. So, in my book, there is a need for both and they are not mutually exclusive!

One thing that I hate on this site is people always appealing to the process of law in defense of abusers. Many cases of abuse are not able to be covered up exactly because it became public knowledge and the sheer outcry of public opinion forced a semblance of justice. The latest OJ case is an example. There is no jury in America that would not nail him to the wall after the fiasco involved in the first case.

GS is exactly such a resource. People can come here and read up on things that happen behind closed doors in TWI leadership circles from firsthand accounts. There's a reason why they happened behind closed doors. There's a reason why TWI leadership is secretive. Eph 5:12,13 talks about things done in secret and made manifest. When the secret abuse, greed, political posturing, covering up, and more are made public and manifest, then the light can reprove them. These leaders know what they are doing is wrong, and that is why they hide things and lie about them. They don't allow things to be brought to light, lest their deeds would be reproved, and public opinion could be brought into play regarding their real actions and motives of heart.

If anyone in this here cafe has any advice for me, I sure would appreciate it. Is there a book or a site I can send her to? I went on the Way site and it's just like it was a few years ago, with zero opportunity for anyone visiting to send a message, much less even buy a book. (Why show people those books and then not sell them?)

Advice? Yes, absolutely.

Just show them this video:

That ought to cover it.

Perfect example of how the system works. Each person has the right to pursue their claim in a real court, not the internet version. They can submit testimony for examination ,they can enter evidence, present real facts as opposed to one sided opinions, and then a jury can render a verdict. At which time one can declare guilt or innocence according to the law. Wow what a novel idea........

And on the Internet, people can tell their stories and be judged by the merit of the story as opposed to the court system which is expensive.

If the abuser in the story feels slandered, then they can go to the court system for remedy, and enter discovery evidence, and present facts, and a judge or jury can render a verdict. At which time they could declare not guilt or innocence as those are criminal law terms not civil, but the successful outcome of a civil verdict and state the damages.

Isn't it great how that works?

I'm not a trademark attorney, but I think there are certain phrases that are more easily copyrightable and defendable than others. "The Way International" is probably more defendable. "The Way" in and of itself is a phrase spoken by Jesus and recorded in scriptures.

One of the problems with trying to copyright that or sue for infringement is that a largely defendable position is that Jesus owns the copyright and TWI just tried to camp on it later by filing US trademark documents.

Which in reality is actually what happened.

You might wanna check some tape logs for the 70s before you stand by that statement.

VPW, through the 70's from what I can put together, had KC Pillai and Lamsa teach some all the while extolling their support of him, had a guy he said was seed of the serpent teach the Corps, and once in a while would have some other source like Bud Morgan speak.

I don't recollect him ever exchanging teaching spots on the Sunday Service with other Christian denominations such as is common in mainstream Christianity. I'm sure if you have a comprehensive tape log list from all time you might find one or two exceptions to this, like Rufus Mosely teaching, or the like.

So I will concede this point to you on the 70's, and state that there was some of that going on in the 70's, which as others took on running the ministry in the 80's decreased more and more. By the time VPW was gone, there was absolutely zero outside collaboration on teachings, which has continued to today.

Congratulations, by sniping at one mostly correct sentence in the midst of paragraphs, you've managed to turn the attention of the thread from tithing and ABS and TWI practices on to yourself. I'm sure your motives are accuracy, but give it a rest and join the discussion.

Back to the main point. TWI set themselves up as the only source of Biblical teaching. They then taught that the Bible is our only rule of faith and practice. And VPW taught the commutative law in mathematics in his Foundational Class - things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. So without directly stating so, followers were led to believe that TWI is the only source of truth for faith and practice. Statements of pretended humility such as "I don't have all the answers", or "It's not the only truth it's just the best package" placed in strategic places are false displays of humility to further increase followers trust.

What is further irrefutable is what VPW believed about himself. He believed God talked to him telling him he would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. He had a "phenomenon" experience including snow at gas pumps which are not corroborated by any outside source. He may have had a miraculous experience. But then again so may have Joseph Smith. VPW heard from God. Maybe so - the question is of course, "which god?"

If the true God was teaching him the Word in his ear like it hadn't been known since the first century, why the need to plagiarize?