chockfull

I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate. The Way’s version of that reality is a “lifetime of Christian service” as a label, but the details of that are becoming a yes-man to Pharisees who make policy to make life easier for themselves and harder for those that follow them. And to tiptoe around in fear of saying anything critical for fear of excommunication. That is not a lifetime of Christian service. That is a lifetime of Pharisee service and self service. So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system. How do I resolve those two ? Human nature is to make up a story where I am a hero. Whether true or not. But the truth of the matter is the corrupt system hurt and enslaved many. And I was “sold out” to the system and didn’t really consider that some people would bait and switch my genuine desire to replace with absolute compliance to “the system”. One analogy has been the role of a prison guard. These roles can be assumed very quickly as the Stanford prison experiment showed. The Way Corps was a larger scale Stanford Prison Experiment that produces a new set of prison guards every year, helping to perpetuate the prison experiment lifestyle. A ruling class and a governed class. Both classes constructed on blind obedience and trust. This is a recipe for a cult. The pattern can get really bad like the Heavens Gate group and the Jonestown group. In TWI sometimes you had benevolent prison guards who treated the prisoners well. With my genuine heart and desire I fulfilled that pattern most of the time. But I was bound to follow orders and beat the prisoners other times. So do I want to invent a history where I was the hero to myself and everyone around me? I don’t. I feel that would be lying to myself and everyone around. I would rather try and view from an objective perspective and highlight the scam that started the prison experiment. Was God there through it all? Yes always. Did I see His hand in my life in the midst of this? Yes. To me to be true to God I tell the truth now. Thankfully my family hasn’t shunned me and I am able to rebuild some bridges. That’s not true for others who were victims of shunning and whose families are entangled still. These are very real ongoing problems. The gap between the whole body of Christ functioning together and a bunch of Pharisees isolating a “household of God” subject to lock step compliance is huge. To me telling the truth is more important than my ego to reinvent the path I traveled. Let me be an average Christian in an average church doing average good works over being some hot shot who posts his resume on the net about how they saved the world through the greatness of their “yes ma’am”. We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them. As Stanford prison guards. Not some anointed version of a fake clergy with a golden calf VP statue and an oversized ego. Not saying that is you sky. You have a genuine heart to help others and serve. Your insights are articulate and balanced. You help a lot of people here. I’m sure you helped people you led also in TWI. So did I and yes I have memories of some great snapshots that God helped energize when I was in also. Just trying to tell the truth and catalyze more freedom for myself and others. And the truth about TWI is to look at the putrid fruit brought about by their Pharisee systems and activities. I would rather have one day of freedom than 10 years of recognition of being a really important person in a prison experiment.

I get the idea that if you take all the strong terms in the Bible that are negative and personalize them to the point that whether it is taking of Herod, Pharisees, Sadducee’s, the devil in temptations, various descriptions of spiritual entities if you lump together all of those audiences and take them to mean yourself I can see where you would feel categorically attacked. And as such use strong language in response. The idea I would present back is some of the natural man verses spiritual man imagery could have to do with being familiar enough with the spiritual audiences in scripture that you do not take everything personally as a frontal attack or ad hominem attack but rather realize those described in negative words like that are specific to audience and circumstance of the story and not generally applicable to all of different or no faiths or religions. Discrepancies in the harmony of the gospels are well known and I accept them and accept they may all be inaccurate in little details and may not be congruent. VPs work in JCOP was his attempt at this harmony in a way. I don’t accept fundamentalism in general so this is not a concern to me. Paul was probably not terrified of any debate to be honest. With his background. I kind of agree with your questions on the blood sacrifice and wonder why all that nonsense required the shedding of blood for payment. I guess it might have to do with the messiah fulfilling OT laws so it was a just trade for the new birth and those lives. From my view even reason needs an anchor. You can’t speak geometry without speaking of it taking point, line and plane on faith.

The words “righteous anger” were taught and modeled. The pressure to confirm was real. No it does not justify. Anger over a just cause should not cause sadistic actions. Because I was in a warped cult I evaluate it according to a “average” or “reasonable” person would react. If one of my calmer friends is worked up it catches my attention. Other than that I think “righteous anger” especially in context of excusing being a grade a petulant arsehole is 100 % false and 100 % an excuse.

Hey Marie thx for your heartfelt sharing and deep introspection. To start out first yes I absolutely realize and take accountability for my actions which definitely hurt others. I was literally told to yell at people by higher leaders. Yes that is sick. Yes I did it because I was duped. Yes I bear the responsibility for the sin of “following orders” just like all the Nazi prison camp operators. The “Way Corps” is a multi tiered Pharisee organization. Like the masons or any other secret indoctrination program people advance through tiers by sacrificing morals at every turn. I am so sorry for the lost time in relationships with your parents and siblings. I also experienced similar distancing from people who loved me due to my choices. I have been able to repair and recover some relationships. Others I lost. The time was too long and it was too late for that window of opportunity. I experience sorrow due to this like you. In reality abusive and corrupt systems trap the follower into a cycle of abuse where the victim becomes the abuser. It is not easy to break these cycles regardless of where you are at in the cycle. I can only say I have resolved to not become an abuser like I have in the past. And to teach and speak against it. Yes some of the non sanctioned Way International history books contain a telling of the story from the victim perspective. And probably the authors have also grown to avoid the personal abuse cycle also. But victim blaming is evil and it is wrapped up completely in PFAL teachings on “the law of believing” so I’m not going to judge victims. Thanks for sharing and hope you stay for a coffee and a donut lol.

In this I believe GSC allows people to not succumb to the deceitful groupthink of TWI, and thus not be carried away by every wind of doctrine. In TWI the doctrines with the most “wind” were the ones they fail to claim publicly - the revelation to VPW regarding “teaching the Word like it hasn’t been known since the first century” and the confirmation by snow on the gas pumps. Then comes the other “wind” in PFAL - the miraculous events in India that were unconfirmed by sources there. The key to the city, the story of the healing of the man with the withered hand that “doesn’t believe in your Jesus”. And all of the references to the “top minds” he studied with like Karl Barth. The most “wind” in PFAL comes from plagiarizing the source - BG Leonard for the class and JE Stiles for the RHST book. Also the “law of believing” is one huge burst of hot air wind. The “systematizing of error” took place in all of the little edits of subsequent editions of class materials. Anything sketchy - edit it out. Perfect the logic leap explanations, make up charts, and set up a Way tree structure to put bondage on followers. It is a Pharisee tree structure how it functions, described directly in “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” a study in Phariseeism in scriptures. All the work in publications and putting together the classes to make them more mainstream and remove the doggie porn and conspiracy theories that were more out there - that is work in systematizing error. All so the unsuspecting young Christian or troubled soul can be vacuumed up into their fold as a lifetime source of revenue by mandated giving rules. So yes, don’t be tossed about by all the hot air produced by the Way ministry. Reject the systematized error and walk in freedom in Christ like God intended.

No worries. I know there are a couple of verses in Proverbs that talk about the dilemma of whether or not to answer a fool after his folly. So this fool is good either way.

Ok while I do understand the dilemma accepting a spiritual world where different concepts come to the forefront, the language here is pretty emotionally strong. ”ad hominem attack” ”gullibility” ”magic decoder ring” ”the reason virus” I really don’t view that in a fundamentalist pattern that you “can’t understand” but more like you are so invested in proving it wrong that your entire reasoning is after one kind of knowledge and shutting out any other kind of knowledge. I will leave it to the cults to define that in such a narrow minded fashion it cuts over into inherent ability to understand with Great Principle charts. People understand the worlds they focus on.

This fits the pattern of my observations. My point of contribution is more that “Theo pneustos” is not commonly known to that level of original knowledge depth of the Greek behind the various things it is translated in common languages. Christians I have conversed with only the theology students and sometimes pastors have that level of Greek to know the words in a verse. IME the lay Christians more have a general “God inspired” take on it and understand nothing of the canon of scriptures other than rejecting the Mormon books as not from God.

My conversation with a rabbi really tiptoed around the Messiah as both perceived the other to have predisposed positions on him. We mostly talked law and the prophets and the interpretation and application in modern times. With my discussions with a Messianic Jew he definitely showed negative aggressive position towards the trinity but as a TWI follower the son of God position did not trigger him and we had a good discussion series. I currently view the Trinity as nuanced and strong positions on either side have caused the most controversy within Christianity than anything. But that’s a sidetrack.

Hey extremist I have one suggestion to add. Due to the years of “twig” activity and bonds, moving from that to a vacuum is emotionally challenging. Find one or more “small circles”. Each one of those will provide some kind of emotional support system and build up free will in the place of cult compliance and inactivity. Ok sorry two suggestions. Exercise to get those good hormones going on a daily basis. Best wishes and peace!

Thx for the rundown exidor I haven’t yet seen the movie but my interest is sparked. Yes there are some decent threads around here on Doop Heefner and Lonnie Frisbee. Interesting reads when you include Haight-Asbury and The Living Room storefront with couches they all used to hang out at.

I guess at this point I am considering some part of the NOMA idea appealing to logic and motivation. I can kind of view the NOMA concept as tying together I Cor 2:14 with some concepts. As an aside the cults all highly utilize the natural man / spiritual man for all sorts of nonsense and shenanigans from reading in hats to justifying shunning. But if you have two separate parallel Stephen Hawking universes, where in one the natural laws of physics and gravity work and another one where you are weightless and propelled by ideas then those two universes could be the foundation of each - the natural man and the spiritual man. The problems come in with short circuiting the one to try to bridge to the other. Now I also have heard a great deal of ridiculousness in extending this metaphor. I am talking Q15 splain AND GB pretend humility splain with respect to I Cor 2:14. The Mo’s have another verse in their scripture which repeats that one like most of their stuff. Honestly I think sorting through all this is way more work than just erasing it with a rejection. That is super simple. I don’t want to do that because I do believe there is a spiritual world and spirit is real. But I feel like spirit and spiritual are terms that are widely abused like the word art. Art was a friend of mine in middle school who accidentally lit himself on fire trying to burn an anthill with gasoline. There are so many people running around taking his name in vain.

I like it better with you posting as opposed to lurking. I would surmise since I discovered it this week that I don’t have a fully developed position on this, am still formulating. NOMA fits the gap for many known advanced intellects and I find merit in further reading and exploration. I guess you are are rejecting NOMA because you say the NO in NOMA is not a thing ?

Yeah the energy kind of fluctuates between exploration and a face off. I don’t really enjoy the confrontational type energy but I do enjoy exploring the concepts with you as they help me in my faith and my logic.

Yes when you referenced “faith healers” from a context of there not being a genuine side I totally thought those names were what you were talking about by reference. I do not agree on all instances of “faith healing” being testable. For instance a disease goes into remission for a period of time surrounding prayers. Then re appears later. What does the “test” show there? I read NOMA differently. I read it as kind of the thing Dan Brown gets at in his novels - the science verses faith discussion. The Popes special mission priests vs the Illuminati. I won’t even get into Hawkings parallel universes but that is similar - the knowledge runs in parallel universes. One is not especially pertinent in the other. But they combine together for a more complete picture.

Except VP didn’t claim the PFAL class was God breathed. Mike did. This is vastly different than the Judeans rejecting the Messiah. Also they didn’t reject scripture they rejected the canon of scripture that originated from the Messiah. Not close enough for a cigar. Unless we are playing horse shoes and hand grenades. I mean real honestly here I feel like I am being corralled or gaslighted into agreeing that it is the same logic rejecting the resident trolls position that PFAL is somehow more supernatural than even the teacher of it claims and the Jews rejecting Christ. Ludicrous!

The “as long as God doesn’t define Himself” line of thinking indicates that once you see evidence of this from a scientific factual perspective that now you have something to disprove God with. And facts can be manipulated enough to sway towards confirmation bias on either side of the argument. The entire idea about the new birth is accepting something you can’t see, believing in a relationship you can’t “feel” and waking out on trust in a higher power. Thomas put his hand in the side of the resurrected Christ. He didn’t have the technology to make a Snapchat of it and publish it on the net so he could “prove” to everyone what he saw and get an objective confirmation. If that was not the case then freewill is a farce. It’s just following a trail to an inevitable conclusion shown by the evidence that may or may not be true and may or may not have any causal effect. With that said, Benny Hinn , Creflo and the like give off a really creepy energy. And are frauds that we have discussed along the lines of Branham. The two choices are not those clowns or no supernatural action at all. But that is how you frame the argument.

And whose fault is that? you are the author of your reputation

1. They don’t accept the Messiah. Or most don’t. There are Messianic Jews who do. And those don’t reject inspiration of NT. 2. No

Is this called building dramatic tension ?

Okay digging in deeper to this as it is more interesting than surface level commentary and arguments. NOMA for short deals with the approach of separating science and religion into 2 different buckets as it is proposed they contain 2 different kinds of truth. Albert Einstein dealt with the “is ought” problem. This is dealing with the fact science handles what “is”. Religion handles what “ought”. I am just learning this NOMA concept and theological philosophy. Many of these arguments have been gone over before mostly with people with better resources and more developed positions than I have.

Two mental patterns “lightly sprinkled” with scriptures. And sliding terminology to counteract “bias”. Sure after the hundredth wild goose chase and off the wall mental philosophy maybe your audience is reluctant to get on that roller coaster ride?

Nice PFAL concept reference.

What is uncanny is your ability to see into all the people I’ve interacted with and tell me their thoughts.

There is a huge percentage of people I notice on Reddit exmormon and exjw channels that move from a strong belief to the rejection of any supernatural belief at all. I would estimate at 60-70 percent. I understand I accept I don’t want to criticize that choice in any fashion. I myself did not choose that path and am solid in my choice. I think the Jews as well as early Christians felt many things about Paul. In Jerusalem he was not accepted at all but they looked for his circumcision in the bathroom stalls. The Christians. I have met some pretty sharp Rabbis with respect to scripture logic. Have really enjoyed discussions with 2 rabbis in different towns. The Talmud is super interesting.