shiftthis

I have the Takit ep. there are 2 songs they did called "Would you like to be a slave" and "all tied up" and several others that are not on the ep. does anyone know if those were released to the public ? thanks

Oh my gosh...why is it not possible that YOU misunderstood something. Talk about dogmatic in your stance of being argumentative or right! Once you decide something, eye witnesses [past or current] don't matter to you. Sheesh!

do what dude ?! are you on drugs ?! me missunderstood sumthin ?! if you read my post i clearly stated i was going to a fellowship run by Dave Garribaldi. i brought up TAKIT and during the conversation Dave said he never played drums for TAKIT. he told me that other believers thought he did to. i never asked if he was involved or not involved with TAKIT in other ways. you dig bro ?

http://www.gigging-drum-charts.com/david-garibaldi.html

i saw that TAKIT credit on that website. Dave said he never played drums for TAKIT but its possible he helped the drummer. he could have help mix , helped produce , etc and thats why hes credited.

even more than that, many of us who post here have centered our lives around what VP preached for decades and attempted to live, move, and prosper under his teachings. God has honored our hearts and done things for us in spite of the corruption of the organization. over time we've come face to face with that darkness within the organization, and moved in different directions. in my opinion, those who remain and have been around all have had to "sell out" to rationalize the evil within the org and still support it. i could not justify doing that.

it's not that we don't believe God could pull off phenomena related to the weather. it's that after examining TWI and the fruit of the organization, including the fruit of VP's life in its entirety, it's far more likely something that vp made up in retrospect to try and foster his reputation among the young hippies as "The Teacher" or sole pipeline to the heart of God. it's recorded here on this site vp's organizational freeze out tactics and takeover tactics with the original fellowships in the Groovy Christian eras - both on the West Coast and East Coast with Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner.

in fact, reading that today, to me it seems much more similar to Joseph Smith's elaborate tale talking to the angel Moroni that founded the Mormons than it does a genuine Christian experience.

you cant takeover a group unless your invited to. i know , i put several rock bands together. about 1993 i put a non christian secular rock band together. me and a guitar player had ben working together. we got a bas player , singer and second guitarist. i was the band leader. i paid the full rent for the rehersal room and had ben renting it for several years so i could practice my drums. no one else ever paid any rent on the room. i got a call from my landlord asking me if i wanted to rent a smaller room. i said no. he said the tall guy(second guitarist) had met with him and told him i was quiting the band and moving out of the room and he was taking over the rental. i told my landlord that wa the first i heard of it. i asked my landlord if he could go and change the locks on the door. he did. i called the secong guitar player and told him to meet me at the room and get his stuff out. he came and got his stuff and was really ....ed. i kicked him out of my band. he tried to takeover my band and it waould have ben one thing if he and everyone had said they wanted a different drummer and got their stuff and moved ouit of my room, BUT it became a different deal when that guitar player tried to kick me out of my room that he never paid any rent on ! the singer and bassplayer quit and me and the guitar player that had ben working together kept playinf together. no one can take over a group or fellowship or anything unless they do it using mobster type force or the people let them. also there are a lot of people that were kicked out of twi for stealing, continued drug use including coming to fellowship with drugs, disrupting , trying to cause trouble by talking crap(a believer tried to turn me against a believer friend) and getting in arguments with the person teaching. i'v met a few believers that were teed off at twi and would show up with picket type signs at hotels where twi was havi ng a public x or something.

How much more of a firsthand account than excathedra or Kristen Skedgell does a person need? Wouldn't a witness to a married, 50 something, "minister" having sex on a motor coach with a young lady in her early twenties be hard to come by anyway? Usually things of this nature happen in private is my point. So throwing out the need for a first hand eye witness is sort of asking the impossible. Not to mention discrediting the victim to excuse Wierwille's indiscretions.

But some people will do whatever they can to postpone their date with reality. I remember being the same way. Take evil actions such as committed by Wierwille, Martindale, and Rosalie (she covered it up) and rationalize them away.

the word says "all" men are liars. there were people that lied about JESUS to Pilot. i'v known of believers to lie. why wasnt this brought up right after it was sais to happen ? who was the young lady ? why were theses accusations brought up after VP died ? over the years some of the people i'v witnessed to have told me all kind of lies about twi that they say a good friend told them. a good lie was the one about everybody in twi being trained in military exercises and that included me. yeah i was accused of getting ready to go to war against the U.S. gov and twi had machines guns and tanks and all sorts of stuff. that was about 1984. just because someone says something happened doesnt mean it did. maybe Skedgell hit on VP and he reproved her and she got ....ed and this is her payback. i met a girl and come to find out she went out with married men. i remenber she had the hots for some married dude and they would go to las vegas on weekends. she wanted to marry him. ever thought that could be the case here ? btw VP died in 1985. twi went through lots of changes. lcm got a big head and threw his life away. lots of false teachers were kicked out. twi isnt VP's ministry just like its not your fathers oldmobile. different leaders. if people want to hold on to whatever happened over 23 years ago thats their free will choice but whats the profit ? its what is happening now that matters.

Your describing naturally occurring severe weather patterns that are normal. Wierwille is quoted as saying (From TWLIL by Whiteside)

Do you see the difference? One occurs naturally while the other was cited as a confirmation of the following supposed conversation with God. Basically, Vic confirmed his chosen man of God status with this story. Put himself on a level playing field with Paul. (same source):

How does this even compare to you witnessing with people from out of town and a summertime thunderstorm versus Wierwille's claim?

By the way. The following claim falls flat because all of Wierwille's works can be traced to contemporary sources. Nevermind the first century Church.

i'm from mississippi. as i stated earlier , the sky is blue the sun is bright and no clouds anywhere. suddenly thet sky turnes black and the wind whips up and the hail and rain start and i have ben driving at times when this accured and sometims had to pull over cause i couldnt see the front of the hood of my car. thats a natural occurance in mississippi. if the temperture were rigth the rain would be snow. when i lived in wyoming it would thunder and lightining at times during a snowstorm, and why cant GOD do something like that for VP ? what about the burning bush and talking donkey ?

Well, this thread has evolved (Don't they all?) into something that would be better suited for the About The Way forum.

Soooo...It may take interested parties a while to see this here and respond.

In the meantime, perhaps you would care for some reading materials?

HEREand HERE

this afternoon i talked to a believer i have known since about 1986. he was a twi fellowship coordinator(i was in his twig) and went way corps. several years ago he decided to split from twi and join an independent group. i talked with him about what you accuse VP of and he was quite shocked. he was close to lcm and vp and said he never heard of such. he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister and so what "if" vp did. he hasnt ever ben to greasespot cafe and i had to expalain the forum to him, he has heard of gsf from others. he thinks you guys are probably people working for the adversary. now that guy syas he will never come back to twi and therefore he has no reason to stick up for twi. i have ben talking to some others that were way corps back in the late 70's up to the mid 80's and are still good looking females and they never heard of VP committing adultry and were never approached by VP for sex or had VP look at them in a glaring kind of way. unless some female post her fot and name here along with whos fellowships she was in at the time this accured and others i can contact to verify these allegations i was see all this date rape and adultry stuff for what it is > LIES ! btw my friend was really shocked that women or whoever(men)would accuse VP of drugging them and raping them. he knew John Race and might try to get in contact with him. btw "if" VP did anything wrong THE WORD of GOD says HE is able to deliver them to the uttermost, the "VIOLEST" offender who believes. thats GODS WORD , "BUT" THE WORD also says not to use our freedom as an ocasion to the flesh. i dont believe VP ever rape, date raped , or committed adultry. did VP ever fool around before he got married ? maybe ? i sure did and then is saw what GODS WORD says about humpin out of wedlock.

Shifthis. You said if you called TWI they would do a financial disclosure. Have you done that yet?

no and i dont care how much or how little TWI has. you can call them. i hope the twi bank account continues to grow and they give the full time staff a raise.

There are people here who can answer that with a "yes".

Be careful what you wish for.

well , i'm waiting , who are you ?

Welcome, damurf.

Yep, reading some of these threads is somewhat - obsessional - especially in the beginning when you first come across the hidden side of TWI.

Love your remark:

Just about sums up the whole TWI attitude.

Like your new avatar. :)

why dont you read my long post and then reply again. yeah there are some deadbeats that come to fellowships and that includes TWI and the independant fellowships. but dont blame TWI or accuse them of that, there are a few that helped me. your gonna have riff raff in anything. look at what THE WORD says about false teachers that "shall" come in among you. yeah that the WORD of GOD i just quoted. go look it up and see for yoursef. btw i also recived help from an independent fellowship after another independent fellowship didnt want to give me the time of day and basically told me to take my problems elsewhere , they wernt into helping people.

I was told to avoid someone that was my WOW brother because he had a drinking problem yet I was encouraged to help non-believers come to the fold...didn't make much sense. Why would I put more energy into someone I don't know whether will believe or not as opposed to someone who obviously needs my help?

they must know something you dont. i have a scar on my forhead from where my dad went into a rage and slammed my head against a table when i was about 5 yo. when i started the 5th grade my dad started drinking heavy and would become very violent. my dad would beat the hell out me and repeatedly kicked me in the side one night when i was in either the 5th or 6th grade. things just got worse and worse. i ran away to my grandmothers when i was 12 but that didnt last. my dad became veru violent when i was 17 and came at me with an empty vodka bottle and chased me down the street. i went back in a couple hours later and got my 20 gauge a headed to his room to kill him. the thaught of me going to prison kept hitting my mind so i went back to my room packed some clothes and went 10o miles away to live with my grandmohter. after about 6 months of my grandmother talking with my dad i returned home only to have my dad rip my bedroom door down and as i ran around the room and ran down the street he destroyed my drum set. i came back later got my ithica 20 gauge pump and headed to his room a second time to kill him. sme thought came about jail so i packed my stuff and went back to my grandmothers. my dad showed up down there and saw me and some friends in a parking lot talking. being it was the 70's we would leave our keys in our cars. my dad pulled up got out got in my car started it and put it in 1st and reverse and popped the clutch. then he floored the engine and i pulled the 2 hood pins and yanked the coil wire. a freind of mine was asking him what the hell you doing and my dad tried to hit him. about that time the cops came and almost sided with my dad till they smelled alcohol and told him to leave. one of the guys that was there that i didnt know had gone to his car gotten his handgun and wes gonna kill my dad but the cops pulled up before he could. i went through hell becaue of my dad drinking. i tried to get the cops to do soemthing but there wernt any laws back then they could use. a frends dad was a cop and couldnt find anything except to catch my dad driving drunk. i dropped out of school in the 11th grade and went to live with my grandmother until i was 18. because of school bussing rules i was not allowed to attend the high school in the town my grandmother lived in. my dad ran a lot of my friends off. a few friends told me if they ever saw my dad hit me they werer gonna do him in. from 1986-1994 i didnt talk to my dad. i would call my mom and if my dad answered the phone i would hang up cause he would cuss me out. my mom was a really weak person and i blame her for not divorcing my dad when he busted my head when i was little. when i was in my 20's i asked my mom why she didnt kick him out and she didnt have an answer. according to my mom my dad drank until about 1993 when she finally got fed up and told him she wanted a divorce. she said he immedaiatly stopped cold turkey. i started talking to my dad in late 1994. alcohol can be a very serious and deadly habbit. i have ben freinds with believers that were druns and didnt want to stop cause they like the buzz. some would drink and drive or just get plastered. when your drunk your not in control and all it takes is a drunk believer to whip out a knife or a gun or use their fist to kill you. TWI has helped people with alcohol problems get delivered BUT the person has to want deliverence. some people dont want deliverence. my younger brother came to fellowship and took pfal in 1982. he came to twig for a while but quit and got into drinking and smoking dope. he didnt want help and i didnt want him around me. he had a wreck and broke his neck. he recovered and kept drinking and he and his friends would steal. in 2002 my dad called me to tell me my brother was eaten up with cancer. i got ahold of a fellowship back there with believers i knew. i decided to get on a plane and go see my brother. he didnt want help, he said he was fine like he was and knew he was gonna die and it was fine with him. he died a few weeks later. so NEVER EVER ACCUSE me or TWI for not caring about others. others MUST WANT HELP and some people dont want yours or my help. if your told to stay away from a drunk theres a good reason. i had a drunk guy wave revolver in my face with the hammer back. its because of me believing GOD to protect me that kept that guys finger from squezing the trigger, i was looking at the drunk guys finger while it was on the trigger. he suddenly put the gun down and ui ran like all hell broek loose.

the foto is my brother car that he wrecked when he was drunk and broke his neck. he had just dropped his girlfriend off. as you can see the passenger side is distroyed from the tree it hit. he ran off the road into a tree. if his girlfriend had ben in the car she would probably be dead. i'v seen believers drive while drunk.

to answer your question about why would you put more energy into someone that you dont know will believe or not , because someone put energy into you thats why. soemone put energy into me. i was going through hell and depression and most of the believers didnt want to help me and some didnt want me around. But there were a couple of believers that decided to help me. you were an unbeliever once just like me. nobody knew weather you or i were going to believe but they put energy into us. not everyone that hears the WORD a GOD will believe or stick around. look at what the it says in the gosples about people standing. Jesus put tiem and energy into people and soem became "offended" at what he taught and walked away from him.

I thought Dave Garibaldi was Takit's drummer.

no Garribaldi didnt play drums for TAKIT. i thought the same thing until i started going to Daves fellowship in Northridge around 1988. i asked Dave about playing for TAKIT and he made it clear to me and his fellowship that he never was in TAKIT, he never drummed for TAKIT. he said people think he is but the drummer was a guy named Willie that looks just like him from a distance. Dave and some other believers put out and album called "wishful thinking". yeah that drummer could be Daves twin. i went to Daves fellowship for about a year and then Dave moved to san francisco. Daves fellowship consisted of about 10 drummers me being one a them. well , why not have an all drummer twig ?! LOL !

how many of you have done like they did in the book of acts and seen if the stuff VP preached is so ? when the believers in the book of acts taught THE WORD it says they searched the scriptures daily to se if the things the believers taught were according to GODS WORD. and why cant it snow for a few mi nutes in the summer and then melt away in a few minutes. i'm from missippi and suddensly the nice sunny sky would turn jet black and the wind , rain , hail , and sometimes tornados will whip up out of nowhere and as soon as the storm came it over quickly. sometimes the storms would last a little. saw the tornado that hit hazelhurst around 1969. getting ready for school and the sky turned black and a funel cloud passed right over the house and suddenly the sky was clear again. my grandmother freaked out. i was on outreach in alabama with some believers from places far away. the sky turned jet black and the tornado sirens went off and everybody buy me freaked ! i told them thats normal for this part of the country and a tornado is somewhere around here. i think they were wishing they were somewhere else. so VP seeing snow in the warm weather is no big deal to me. it hails in missippi in the summer. it can also snow in the summer if the conditions are right, and yes the snow will melt very fast like hail melts very fast unless its really big hail. oh hail !

were those of you that accuse VP of adultry, rape, drug & rape actually there and see it happen ? answer with a yes or no

Well, if this stuff hadn't been known since the first century, how can it be that all these other guys already knew it?

BTW...Bullinger died in 1913....Who copied whom?

if they did they kept it to themselves. if i have knowledge and dont share it you will never know it. if someone else learns the knowledge i have and shares it they get credit for it. those other guys should have taught what they knew like VP did.

"John Race is the believer and only one that was the pilot of ambassador 1"

Really??

I thought Frank Cardullo piloted the plane, as well. Whadda ya know!

go back and reread my reply, i mentioned Frank Cardullo and i put in parenthesis i might have spelled his name wrong. John was the captian and Frank was the co-pilot. my point was that these were the only 2 guys that flew the plane. there were no other pilots. you understand now ?

Nope. No idea who he is. Should I?

yeah you should know who John Race is. that is Captian John Race , and co-pilot Courdolla(might have misspelled his name). John Race is the believer and only one that was the pilot of ambassador 1 the name of the convair 580 that VP flew around in. he and the co-pilot never witnessed anything that you say VP did. obviously you wernt around when VP was alive. everybody that was around back them knew who blond haired slim built John Race was. there were even a couple of way magazines with them in it. after a flyover they could be seen. you do remeber the flyovers dont you ?

Oh, but wait! Didn't Wierwille say God told him He would teach it to him like it hadn't been known since the first century? <_<

yes , didnt you take the pfal class ?

"i bet "WE"(yes me to) would still be wondering whats up if VP hadnt done all the research for us."

I don't think you've really been paying attention too closely. Wierwille, in fact, didn't do that "research", he plagiarized it....sometimes word-for-word...from other sources.

and ? at least he got it out here. why didnt those other people get that knowledge out ? maybe VP had permission. when someone teaches how the bible interprets itself are they plagiarizing twi,VP , or someone else ? i say no and thats beacuse THE WORD say its not for private interpretation. so if we use your thinking and i teach someone how to read the bible i'm could be accused of plagiarizing the bible. if i show someone a better way to pull the 4 speed out of a 65 mustang and soemone else has already ben doing it my way but i dont know and take credit for the better idea am i plagiarizing ? no, not if i didnt know soemone else aready had the same idea before me. btw i could be accused of teaching class material when i teach someone how to get born again, or lead someone into SIT. but teaching THE WORD isnt class material, its GODS WORD. anyone that teaches the bible isnt plagiarizing anyone. however if i use a chart that somoeone else made and say i made it then theres a problem. if i never looked at anyones chart and made one thet looked just like someone elses i could be accused of plagiarizing however i wouldnt be. kinda like the other night i was listening to SRV song "if the house is a rockin". i was taping my hands to the song and decided to add the same drum break at the same time to the song that the drummer on the song did. i LOL and thought , wow i'v ben playing so long i just know from experience when and where and what kind od drum brakes are used on songs. i wasnt cpoying the gut cause i never heard the song. i could however be accused of plagiarizing if i said i came with the drum brak even though i did.

When a man administers a date rape drug to a woman, and then has sex with her, it's not adultery, it's rape. This was VP (you know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille's modus operandi. (There is first hand testimony here on GSC.) Also, when a person abuses a position of authority and trust, whether it be a policeman, a teacher, a therapist or a clergyman, it's no longer "adultery", it's rape..

when these women come foward and give their names and swear to GOD they are telling the truth otherwise they will kill over as Annanias and Sapphira killed over in acts ch 5:1-10 and they remian alive then and only then will i give a listen. otherwise these are nothing but devilish evil lies that evil people are spreading. remember , everyone gives account to GOD. you know , if i wanted to i could wait till you die and make up stuff about you and theres no way you could defend yourself. i want to hear this from those it happened to ! do you know who John Race is ?

"...yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what?"

Well, being an advanced class grad, I'm sure you remember that VP taught cancer was a devil spirit.

Quite a dilemma, don't you think?

That would mean that, either we were followings the teachings of a man who was devil possessed (by his own definition)... or ....maybe he was wrong about that. And,if he was wrong about that, what else might he have been wrong about?

no , not a delima , the mind isnt all the devil can possess. who does the devil go after the most ? just look at Paul and the apostles and what happened to them. maybe we should load up on Paul for screwing up and getting thrown in prison. i guess your perfect. when a man dies from something hes teaching it should be a lesson that NONE of us are immune to the attacks of the devil. so VP was weak in believing for his health, look at what happened to Paul. if you want to know the accuracy of GODS WORD you ought to thank GOD for what VP did weather you like VP or not. i'd bet neither you nor any of the other guys that are running their own fellowships would have studied and taught GODS WORD like VP did. i bet "WE"(yes me to) would still be wondering whats up if VP hadnt done all the research for us.

From Losing The Way:

From Chapter Sixteen:

Picture this. You’re on a cruise ship sailing through the Caribbean. The weather is balmy, bright afternoon sunshine, soft breeze, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. You’re on the deck sunning just as you’ve been doing every day for fifteen years. You wear a shocking pink two-piece bathing suit to offset a dark tan. Your book, a mystery, lies open face down on the floor next to a dripping pina colada. Your eyes are closed under dark sunglasses.

Late in the day, clouds start to roll in. The water becomes choppy. The captain hobbles by and greets you. You do not notice his peg leg and the black patch over his right eye. He says a storm is blowing in. It would be best if you went down below. You thank him, as you have done every day for fifteen years, and you gather your things. He is such a nice captain.

Only this day is different. This time, when you open your eyes, you take off your sunglasses. You look up. You notice a black flag with the white skull and cross bones flying overhead. Has this flag always been there? Where is the American flag that was there yesterday? Something is wrong. This is not the Love Boat. This is a pirate’s ship.

You ask your husband, a crewmember. Do you see the flag? Do you see what I see? He aspires to become First Mate. He does not want to see it. You tell him you and he should leave. He does not want to leave. He becomes angry when you tell him what you have seen. He does not believe you. You take off his dark glasses. Tell him to look. He sees the flag. He confronts the Captain. The Captain hands him a sword. Arm yourself, my boy, says the Captain. Protect the Queen’s one true flagship.

cont.

This is how it happens with Alec and me. By this time we are living in Portland, Oregon where we have decided to work on our marriage and run a small fellowship, a twig. Joshua is two months old and we are living in a condo north of Portland.

On this particular day, I am sitting at the kitchen table, reading a book about faith and art by Madeline L’Engle. I have started reading writers outside of The Way, not just secular authors but other Christians like L’Engle. Her book resonates with me. I want to be a writer; I want to keep the faith. She shows me how.

But I know I need to come clean with Alec. After the miracle of Joshua’s birth, I must confront the cloud of hypocrisy we have been living under. The Word says “the truth will set you free.” The Doctor always taught that the “truth” referred to God’s Word. Only speaking the actual words of the Word would set us free. In other words, as long as you quote Scripture, you can tell any lie you want. It’s the Age of Grace. But today I’m doing something radical and new. Today I’m telling the truth of my own experience.

Alec arrives home a little after five. He is happy. He gathers Joshua in his arms and lifts him over his head.

“How is my little man today?” he says and covers him with kisses. I worry sometimes that he will be too rough with the baby but he adores this child. He would never hurt him.

“Alec, we need to talk,” I say, putting down my book.

“Oh, no, what is it this time? Can’t you at least wait until I take off my jacket?”

“It’s important, Alec. What I have to say may change the way you look at God and the ministry forever.”

He looks at me, examines my face. He can see I am serious. I am not going to criticize or accuse him of anything. This is about the ministry. This is important. He returns the baby to its basket and takes off his jacket.

“So what is it?” he says.

“Aren’t you going to sit down?”

“I can hear you standing up. I want to know what you’re talking about.” He tosses his jacket onto the couch and it slips to the floor. Neither of us rises to pick it up. My heart is pounding and my face feels red.

“The ministry isn’t what you think it is. Dr. Wierwille isn’t who you think he is.”

i have ben around a lot of believers since 1980. i have lived with leadership including branch, limb, and region coordinators. i have known a lot of female way corps. went wow 2 times in the early 80's. i never heard anyone mention this stuff and i didnt see anything abnormal going on. it takes 2 people to commit adultry like with martindale. it wasnt just martindale but also the 2 women that were adulteres. if a so called believer woman had an affair with another so called believer it is the fault of those two. all i hear are roumors and lies. like i posted a friend that was a twi fellowship coordinator whom i have known and lived with around 1987 never heard of any of this crap either. he quit twi about 1988 and ovwersees several independant fellowships along with a few others. he and another guy went to the way collage of emporia in the early 80's. both were going to twi fellowships in the 1970's. they say they never saw or heard of VP screwing around. these 2 guys dont like TWI and if there was something they could accuse twi of they would. just because some people say stuff happened doesnt mean it happened. i know a guy back in the south that i took pfal with in 1980. i saw talked with him a while back and all he could do is put down twi and never could come up with a good reason other then he didnt like LCM. we will all know the truth after the return. everyone shall give account of themselves, lies shall be exposed, it shall be shouted from the rooftops. i remember VP talking about other bible scholars accusing Paul of being a sex maniac. the devil aint got nothing new to acccuse people of, hell even Jesus family accused him of being nuts ! somebody should go write a book about Pauls so called sex adventures and Jesus being a nutcase. oh i almost forgot , theres already a book that says Jesus was a homosexual ! believe what you want but remember all rights shall be wronged after the return, that is wrongs done in this administration. you might even find out how many times my monkey needed a spanking !!!!!!!!! lol !

By the way.....you DID know he died from cancer (as did Uncle Harry and Don W.) didn't you? I'm sure, being an advanced class grad, you can see the obvious doctrinal problems that created. Oh, and he had some pretty fine classic cars, too. (I rode in the convertible, for whatever that's worth.)

yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what. my grandmother(not a believer, she didnt believe what the bible said) died from colon cancer. yes i saw an old red pontiac convert at the rock one time. so what. i have a 1965 mustang gt fastback for a $125.00 back in 1974. the mustang is worth over 20K right now. so what. my landlord has # panteras, 2 1968 cougar GTE with the 427 and some a 65 ford galaxie factory 427 4 speed 2dr ht. those cars together are worth over 300K if he sold them today. my landlord bought them in the early 70's when you could buy a 65-70 shelby mustang for a few thousand. the shelbys are bringing 100K-^ today. just cause someone has expensive classic cars doent mean they paid a lot for them. some bought them new and some bought them used before they became collector cars. theres a guy on the BOSS429 mustang registry that has a 69 BOSS 429 mustang he bought new. he wants to sell it(maybe he sold it) and is asking 250K for it. i have 3 sets of drums that would bring a huge amount of money, i bought them new about 25 years ago and they were really cheap. yeah iirc the convert was a mid 60's red gto. Get Tools Out !

I think Wierwille's profit plan was two-fold. In the short term, classes were there to generate an immediate profit. But, that profit doesn't last. Take my own example. I paid $65 to take the foundational class. That $65 didn't go very far. Then, I had to pay to take this class, that class and so on. Again, those fees didn't last. So, the genius of Wierwille's scheme was in the long term profits generated by the ABS, a system that was introduced from the very beginning in PFAL. Yeah, the 65 bucks quickly disappeared but, then I continued to give them my hard earned cash with every paycheck I earned, week after week, month after month, year after year. The class was only a small cog in the money making machine that came to be known as The Way. And, it worked. Wierwille lived like a king...private jet, motorcoaches that he could use for his frequent sexual exploits, fancy motorcycles, expensive hunting and fishing gear, gallons and gallons of booze, expensive hunting and fishing trips..... and the list continues. So much for needs and wants being parallel.

i will give you that benifit of the doubt that you have ben missinformed rather than call you a liar. the way NEVER had a jet. this is a foto of the exact type of plane the way had and its a Convair 240 converted from radial piston engines to turboprop engines. the converted 240 is called a 580. VP had one old bus that had ben converted to a motorcoach and showed up in jackson mississippi in 1980 in it and taught. produve proof of the sexual exploits you accuse him of. it seems its easy to accuse a dead man of stuff cause they arnt around to defend themselves. i never and have never seen or know ANY leader to live high on the hog. and even if they did whats the problem? are you envious ? i wish they would give themselves raises BUT i guess if they did people would get teed off ! i guees its o.k. for an unbeliever president and his family to fly around and go on vactions about every other week at OUR expenxe but if a man of GOD did a fraction of that people raise hell and get teed off. the only fancy motorcycle he had was given to him by Harley Davidson and I was there at the rock of ages when HD gave it to him. a foto of "the twig hopper" as he called it. if you dont want to give why did you give ? no one held a gun to your head and forced you to give. there are , have ben , and will probably always be those that dont tithe. i'm glad VP had nice hunting gear. i used to go hunting and i certainly wouldnt use cheap gear. i dont think you ever went to a way fellowship, it sounds like your just repeating roumors you've heard. this thread started out as a discussion about people charging for classes. i almost no time its turned into a hateful slanderous thing againt TWI and other ministries. i personally know a guy that runs an independent and they aint trying to get rich, he is a cabnet maker.

Ya, but none of these are 501-c3 non-profits that are supposed to be charities, yet never give anything. It's always pay fees and give donations. Care to explain how that is sound practice?

if the ones your refering to arnt a registerd non profit then they have to pay taxes. i see what you mean. if they are a registered non profit they can still charge for classes, it can get complicated. i am putting together an outreach band and we the band members are going to finance the whole thing. we are going to play in parks for free. however if someone wants us to come play in another state we will need money for travel. do we register as a nonprofit or do we take private donations for gas, food , hotel room ? it gets real complicated and i might have to get DOT weight stickers for my f350. we consider the band to be a charity.

Last I heard, The Way was sitting on about 56 million dollars in assets. (probably somewhat less, given the current state of the economy) They're supposed to be a charitable organization, according to their 501 status. What are they waiting for??

there are full time people that have to be paid, eventually building will need to be renovated and you either pay cash or borrow money, and i can make a fone call and find out how much twi has if i want. last you heard, hell i'v heard a lot of theings about the way that aint true. however twi might have 56 mil in dollars and assetts. The Weirwilles GAVE all their land(the farm) to twi when it was first started and that farm land and all those building alone are worth millions. if people want to give money to twi its there business. my grandmother gave tens of thousands of dollars to the roman catholic church and a lot of that went to pet his azz lawsiut settlements. lot of people gave money to build the crystal cathedral and its gone belly up. you ask what are they waiting for ? what do you mean ? do you think they are suppose to just give it all away to anyone. some of that money came from me over the years. i think they should sit on it.

I don't think anyone is really disputing the need to cover business expenses. What has come into question is the motivation involved.

Let me state it another way. When I see all these offshoots springing up and offering new material, I don't see someone saying, "I need to charge for my classes". What I see is someone saying, "I need to have classes I can charge for".

now thats different, yeah that aint right. thats using classes for a business to make money. reminds me of the record in gospels where people were selling second rate offerings so they could make a lot of money. Jesus took care of them, ran em off.