Abigail

Not so self-explanatory to me. Read what is written. It does not say when he shall return, it says when he shall appear. Who says he shall appear to everyone at one time as in some great return, as opposed to him appearing to each individual at the proper time for that individual? Wow, Clay, did I get that right? Is this what you have been trying to show me for so long???

I don't have an answer for you, Out. In TWI, almost everything was spiritual possession and that phrase was used as a hammer over your head. My opinion, which is only partially educated, is that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. There is also an environmental one - what you learn growing up and along the way. I would not say it isn't or never could be spiritual posession, but these days I am not inclined to use that label against another person. I think prayer for another is always helpful. I think there are also many helpful avenues in the world today with treatment programs, but they certainly don't work for everyone. I guess if you are dealing with a personal situation regarding someone you love, I would pray and seek professional counsel - that way you are covering all the bases. :)

It isn't about sexual desire, it is about power. It is about a man who feels completely powerless and his desire to overpower someone else as a result. He is a sick, sick man. I could pity him, if I weren't so thoroughly creeped out by him. Sushi suggests it could also be about denying a homosexual tendency - hence "Athletes of the Spirit"

oh jeez, Larry, do I have to? Can't I just sacrafice a goat or something?

Yeah, Larry, I hear you and appreciate your honesty in that regard. I've heard some good arguments for it too, just haven't heard any that fully persuade me yet.

it's back. :) Sorry for the derail Shifra.

OMG - just reading it creeps me out, because I could hear it in my head in his voice!!!! And you wonder why TWI drew so many men (please note I did not say all men) who were creeps????? oh Dot, there is much I could say on this topic, but not in a public setting.

Larry, earlier you asked me about God leading people to TWI, if I could believe that about my situation could I believe it about others. I have to say, the one place where I still continually struggle with this - where things till don't quite gel for me is the notion that God would lead someone to TWI and then leave them there to be raped, sexually assaulted, physically abused, etc. etc. So that is a conflict I still struggle with. I know what happened in my own situation. I know God didn't leave me there, that He told me to get out and I didn't get out. But I don't know about anyone else's situation and I won't speculate on what occured between another individual and God. So that is, for me, still a conflict when it comes to the notion that God lead everyone who was involved with TWI, to TWI.

Yeah, the mods and administration doesn't read them. But I do ;) I'm KIDDING. Your PMs are your PMs. And don't mess with me when I am PMSing!!! ;)

The very first time I ever heard LCM teach, I went to HQ and he was doing the "do not be ignorant" series. I disliked him immediately and intensely. Again, another case of I should have listened to that still small voice. Over time I just sort of got used to him. BTW, his classes were terrible!!! I took all of his WAP classes and both of his advanced classes, along with the believers family class. Oh yeah, and rise and expansion. They sucked. There were some interesting tid bits here and there, but most of it was him stroking his own ego.

What a shame. I was really enjoying the discussion we were having earlier today. :( Well they may put it back up after they have reviewed it.

Yeah, well Tim Curry knows how to overdue the make up in just the right way. ;) Hey, do you know where the PFAL thread from the Way forums went? I left for the afternoon to go swimming and fishing with the kids and now I can't find it.

Sure I can. I can tell them I met some very wonderful and loving people. I can tell them that we had a fantastic time studying the Bible and hanging out together. I can tell them I learned a great deal about how to live a clean (as in drug and alcohol free) and good life. I can tell them there was a class called PFAL (that is no longer used) that I think had some errors in it, but also had some kinda interesting stuff as well. That is the good stuff that comes to the top of my mind. I think you are already aware of some of the bad stuff, so I don't feel a need to counter the good with the bad here. :)

I think you have to start by defining your term. Some would use the term rather loosely as a way to emphasize a point. I think you also have to consider the time-frame when an individual was involved with TWI. There were times when things were fairly loose and people were fairly free to come and go, to participate or not as they pleased. Then there were times when TWI exerted, or at least attempted to, great control over the individuals' lives. For myself, I wouldn't say we were brainwashed, in the strict sense of the word. I would say we were very strongly influenced using a lot of peer pressure and fear tactics. "If you leave the adversary will wipe you out", "If you leave you will lose all your friends and family", "there is no other place to go", "If you leave you will be outside the household and lose God's hedge of protection". Those are a few that come to mind immediately. I knew in no uncertain terms why my friend left TWI when she did. Not for one second did I believe she left God. In addition, although we did remain friends, there was a period of time (six months maybe? I don't know) when I did lose touch with her and another good friend as well. Not so much because I believed they were posessed or outside of God, but because my (then) husband forbade me from being in contact with them. It was a very very dark and depressing time-period in my life. But during that time, I went back to LCM's tapes on being unequally yoked and I spent a lot of time studying those verses on my own. I concluded LCM's teachings were wrong and that for me was the true begninning of the end for my tenure with TWI. It was about another six months before I actually left, but that time of study helped me have the strength to do it. And despite recognizing that I thought some of the teachings were wrong, leaving TWI was a terrifying thing for me to do. I figured (rightly so as it turned out) it would be the end of my marriage and I had two baby boys to care for. But the fear went deeper than that - there was a deep seated question of "what if they are right and I am wrong?" I had panic attacks for the first 8 - 12 months after I was out. I remember one occassion, when I traveled with my two young boys to go visit my friend who I mentioned before. My husband told me I couldn't go - that I was going without his "blessing" and therefore it was very likely the adversary would kill me and the kids on the drive there or back. I went anyway, I had to find out who was right. But it was one of the most terrifying moments in my life, because I just wasn't sure we would make it home alive. Obviously, we did, and that too was very revealing and healing. So all of that is, again, my roundabout way of saying no, perhaps we weren't brainwashed in the strictest sense. But there was a very large amount of peer pressure and fear used to keep us "in".

Just go to youtube and search his name, he has a lot of funny stuff. If you are into poltics a bit (and I know you are) then you probably know the Russians recently planted a flag at the North Pole in an attempt to claim the land as theirs. Eddie has a wonderfil skit on flags that is very apropo to the situation (though I am certain he did the skit quite some time before the Russians made their little move). I think he is a sharp dresser too. I really want the red jacket he is wearing in some of the clips!!! A tad too much make-up for my taste though, particularly the eye-liner. I think make-up should enhance what is there, not overshadow it.

Again, I think you would have to decide that within yourself. If someone asked me about TWI, I would tell them what I know and believe. Ultimately I do not have the power to prevent someone from getting involved with TWI. I do have the power to help them make a more informed decision, but in the end the decision is theirs to make. There is a woman who I became friends with in my early days of TWI. We became very close and even though she now lives several hours away from me, we have kept in contact throughout the years. During those years there was a time when she had left, and I had not yet left - we still kept in touch. Then there were years when we were both out, we still kept in contact. The last time I spoke with her, she had gotten involved with TWI again. I have no intention of cutting off my contact with her. I have no say in what she will chose to do, but my position is that I would remain friends with her regardless of her opinion of TWI and regardless of her involvement with TWI.

Larry, Sushi posted that at my request - he's so much better at finding those things than I am. :) I am glad you enjoyed it and weren't offended. I thought Shifra would get a chuckle out of it, but I wasn't sure how some of the others down here would respond.

Yes, I could say that. But I won't say that categorically about everyone who was ever involved with TWI. I think each person has to decide for themselves if that was where God wanted them to be, or if they ignored that still small voice that said it wasn't the place for them. For myself, yes I think God led me to TWI and my first few years with TWI were years of great healing and growth. IF I had listened to that still small voice and left when it told me to, I probably would have walked away unscathed and continued to move forward. Instead, I allowed fear and outside pressures to convince me to stay for about 5 - 6 years longer than I should have. I paid a heavy price for those additional years. While the healing I received in the early years remained, I was left with new things that took many years to heal from.

I think "part II" of my previous response would cover pretty much any question of interest. I spend a lot of time in the doctrinal forum and there too you will see I use the Bible, Midrash (the Midrash are oral traditions and folklore combined with various rabbinical arguments regarding biblical verses and concepts and what they mean - you will find the Rabbi's do not always agree), and other sources as well. In the end though, I will untimately form my belief based on what I believe God has worked in me. I would expect others to do the same as well. I don't particularly care to persuade someone to believe exactly as I do. Instead I prefer to offer what information I have learn what information other people have, share my thoughts hear the thoughts of others, and let others form their own beliefs. It makes no difference to me whether they have a differing opinion/belief or not because I believe God will lead each of us where we need to be when we need to be there.

I have to preface this by saying I didn't realize your question was directed only to those who still consider themselves Christian. I no longer apply that label to myelf. I am Jewish. I do believe in what Jesus taught, but not quite in the same manner as most people who label themelves Christian do. I guess if someone asked me how to get born again, my first response would be to ask them what they think that means. I don't believe I have the power to get someone "born again". That would be between the individual and God. I could show them verses that make references to that concept, but they would have to study it, think on it, and ask God for direction. If someone made a comment about a particular subject of a spirital nature and I was interested in studying it further yes I would check out what the Bible has to say on the subject. I would also check out the midrash on the subect. Depending on how deep my interest goes and whether or not I have found a peaceful answer, I may also check a number of other sources. My final conclusion would be based upon what I have read in those places (and I am sure I would find a number of conflicting opinions and ideas) and the peaceable answer I get from God combined.

To expand upon my answer. I think there are millions, if not billions, of people on this planet who have a relationship with God, who have never heard of the Bible, who have never studied "The Word." "The Word" is a means to an end. It is a study tool, a guidebook, to help you understand God, people, and our planet. It can also be a hindrence, and ultimately was in TWI. "The Word" became an idol that superceded our relationships with God and each other.

Define The Word, please. Is it what was taught in PFAL, is it the Bible as we have it today in a literal sence, is it the bible minus additions and subtractions from it that have been made by man? I will assume for the moment you mean it in the sense that it was taught in PFAL, so I can at least attempt to answer your question. Very simply put, not it is not The Word, The Word and nothing but The Word. First, it is God, it is God, and nothing but God. My relationship with God. Then my relationship with people and it is a very very close second to my relationship with God, almost a tie, if you will. Then it is the animals and planet we live on, which I believe we have a responsiblity to take care of too. Does that answer your question?

Eh, it's okay. The best way to eat squirell is slow cooked in BBQ sauce. Tastes like chicken!

Yeah, the teaching was related to "remember Lot's wife" who looked back and turned into a pillar of salt. Teaching people to forget the past is a great way to leave them open to not just a single instance of abuse, but REPEATED instances of abuse. Afterall, if we were to forget the past, then the fact that this person once lied to you, hit you, raped you, whatever, well it no longer counts because it was in the past, right? So if they do it again, you can't say there's a pattern because there is no past. So what if the person TWI is asking you to entrust your children with was once a pedophile, that's in his/her PAST, so we can't dwell on that! So what if TWI is now teaching something that contradicts what you heard two weeks ago, that's in the PAST! And yes, it does prevent us from learning from our mistakes, from growing, from gaining wisdom. Certainly, one can become so obsessed with dwelling on their past that they get stuck there and never move forward. But it is healthy to look at what has occured in the past with a view toward learning and growing from it, and then moving foward with wisdom gained.

I am hesitant here, because the question in my mind may be offensive to some and I do not intend any offense. I too endured and tolerated the spiritual abuse, along with physical and sexual abuse. So, I am not pointing fingers, I am not calling anyone weak or anything. But I read the accounts in this thread, I recall my own account. At the same time, I am very aware that there were quite a few people who simply walked away at the first sign of abuse. They never endured it, never tolerated it, they simply decided they weren't putting up with that crap and left. So, what I am wondering is WHY did some of us (me most certainly included) tolerate it for as long as we did? What change took place within us or within TWI that finally pushed us over the edge to the place where we decided we wouldn't stand for it any longer? I know some of the things within myself, that allowed me to tolerate it. My own fears and insecurities, an upbringing that made a lot of that abuse seem perfectly normal (wasn't it that way in everyone's life - didn't everyone get treated that way?), the pressures and fears regarding losing my family and friends, etc. etc. But sometimes, I think there are still some things hidden in there - things that allowed me to tolerate, that perhaps I haven't dug out yet. Maybe not, I certainly don't put up with much b.s. these days. But I do put up with some - mostly that from strangers, professionals, doctors who have treated me that I didn't like, etc.