socks

That's fine Billy D but normally...normally......usually....might be more like it, people that post positions on doctrinal subjects here do so and then discuss it. Others post responses if they want to and then a discussion, debate, and back-and-forth dicussion takes place. Jeff posts articles and that's that. He doesn't become personally involved in the topic he's posted on, and doesn't invite any other STF, CES or any other acronym to follow up and participate in a discussion. Which is fine, but it's a little non-personal. It's similar to advertising, even if it isn't advertising. If the topic is of such interest and perceived as possibly a valuable challenge, as you put it, to the ex-Way readers of this forum it just seems like that would be worth a certain amount of personal involvement. To me. But either way, big scones, y'know? After perusing the article I saw nothing new, nothing challenging nor anything that would constitute on face value a lengthy discussion, certainly not as long as this thread has gone (besides the fact that it's considered more fish-fillet, supposedly deboned to it's most edible and succulent essence and in a snappy rendering that the average bobbin-head reader might be able to follow). Since it's not, the only thing that would spark interest in me would be elaboration, elucidation and a little engagement. But if it's not worth that to someone, it's certainly not to me. Now please don't take this as vicious, vindictive or venemous. It's not meant to be. And if anyone else really enjoys these linked postings they're free to voice that too.

Soooooo... I guess that means we aren't going to see The List. So be it. I guess, well. Dunno. I'm very disappointed, Song. You've, well, you've kind of let me down here. But you're forgiven. :D--> :D--> :D--> (you knew that was coming, right? c'mon, gimme at least a chuckle or two, it took awhile to set that up. I knew there wasn't going to A List, but at least, we got a laugh! This ain't easy, it looks easy but it ain't. Takes time, experience, skill and patience. Please, if you're watching - don't try this at home!) "Awww, I don't get no respect, no respect. When I was born, the Doc, he spanked my mother! My Dad slapped him! He said 'Lemme do that!'...awww, I don't get no respect. No respect!"

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I want to see the list. I want El Listos. Listos El Grande. Show me La List. Le List. Li List. The List of Shame. The List of Rejection. Give it to me, Song. Hard. Show the list.

Oaks, I think the point of proof is always to the person who the proof was proved. (I'm working on my illiteration, gimme time). I agree with you on the Thomas getting a bad rap idea. None of Jesus's disciples are said to have believed anything about His resurrection until they began to see physical indications. That event wasn't driven by humans "believing" for something to happen or that it could happen. It was done by God. And I see in the bible that while faith in the unseen is prominent, a great deal of faith is based on what WAS seen and that the "faith" developed from experience and was handed down. I maintain that a person's faith is their own, we each have our own and that I can't have yours nor you mine. They may be similar, very much "the same" but the essence and core of what we accept and over time intuitively "know" to be true is unique to each of us as individuals. No matter that we may believe the same thing, as an example. What happens to you is real to you. I may accept it, believe it and understand it, but it will never truly be a part of "me". That to me is the voice of Thomas. "You guys saw Him, fine. I need to see Him too". If we share in the same experience, we each have a separate registration of the event, one that's our own. Catcup's "proof" isn't to you in other words. It could be taped, and we'd never know if the tape was tampered with. We could confirm it hadn't been tampered with but we'd never be able to recapture the actual event. 20 people could all say they heard the same thing but they didn't really - they heard what each of them heard of a single event that occured. Without getting too philosophically mushy, I think it's preferable to use the word "consider" rather than "believe" when it comes to other people's accounts of anything. As in, all things considered, it it possible given the person and the facts as stated. Not necessarily iron clad probable, but possible. Although I think Catcup's simply stating the facts as she experienced them, that's where a person can logically go IMO. If there was proof to be had in that incident in other words, it would never really be to you. You have to have your own proof. Or not. If you never do, it's not up to me to insist you accept mine, my reasons, my facts, my conclusions. You could, but that's your decision and obviously should be based on more than a few words. Why do some people have "proof" and others not? I don't know. It may be that in the retelling we have an opportunity to direct our expectations and perceptions towards what's possible and ultimately knowable by our own selves. That's how I see the bible.

Beta..."The beta version of a product still awaits full debugging or full implementation of all its functionality, but satisfies a majority of the requirements. Beta versions (or just betas) stand at an intermediate step in the full development cycle." You gotta hold for the gold. :D--> Next Oprah - couch potato a peel!

You're forgiven. :P-->

Chas, I think you have the workflow of the Way down well enough to be a Way Consultant! :D--> Steve! I never read about that. Sounds a lot like "Double Session Syndrome". That was when a Limb Coordinator would be under pressure to run concurrent PFAL classes, and have a class here or there that wasn't going to finish on time. So he'd get the class coordinator to run double sessions on the weekends. Two - 3 hour sessions in a day, with breaks, plus a potluck. But it was time with the Family so it was fun. Where DSS would set in the worst was during the summer, where people would actually sit in metal folding chairs for hour after hour and their azzes and lower backs would actually bond with the brown paint of the chair and then when they'd stand up.....sss-rrrr-iiiii-ppp---sssshhhh! It would peel the paint right off. But it was blessed paint so it was okay. Really. Where can I read more about that couch thingie? That person may have been in a makeup session, you never know.

They're getting "smart". Sort of. If they'd have any vision at all and weren't still trying to figure out why those beta video tapes won't fit in a vhs player, they would have done some research about 15 years ago and started using internet tools to connect and reach their congregation. They could have registered every possible rendition of their name and covered their azzes with all of the names that would or could apply, like: thewaysuks thewaybites thewaymeltedmybrain theway_nowayman thewaysmells thewaystinx thewayisfilledwitholdweirdpeople thewaycan'tsing thewaycan'tdance thewayhurtsmyheadsoistoppedgoing it would have been easy to do, and still would be. All they have to do is put themselves in the shoes of the people they've mistreated, abused and scorned over the years and from that mindset, imagined what 98 per cent of all the people they've ever dealt with might say if asked the question "tell us what the Way brings to your mind, in 10 words or less". Then register domain names accordingly. By redirecting to their own site, they cover more bases, including the vast majority of virtually everyone in the world who's ever had anything to do with the Way and who know that, in fact, they do indeed szuk. But it's a sweet justice, as they have to do the registering and work. To "protect" their vast interests. Who says there's no god? :)-->

Well, it's got to be greed. Their heads already have a place - their butz, so that need's been met. Having additional quarters would fall in to the greed category.

JT, that's something they'r very good at changing, I forgot about that. New video? - "Changed" ...just when you thought they had their story straight... coming soon!

I think 5 would be a good number though. That way there'd always be at least 3 if they need to fire one or two along the way. But if they really wanted to change the light bulb, they'd have to get help as it would require one of them to actually get up off their butz and do some work and it's been so long since they've done any work their butz would probably resist and possibly even fall off.

:D--> :D--> :D--> Can board members really change anything?

Dang tootin' George. Getyer mind right, we will! IF the PFAL series led people to do the wrong thing - 1000's of people all being "led" in to manifesting and then doing it over and over 1000's of times - all of these people just sure that what they're doing is right by the Word, their hearts, the results, all of that...it casts an ever so small shadow over someone coming along, poking at a bone or two and then basically doing the same thing. It says something to me. I'm not saying that we were taught right or wrong. I'm just saying that my experience of 21 years of doing this, seeing it, teaching it, leading it, etc. etc. ... tells me that perfectly good hearted and well intended people have a way of doing what they're told to do when they place their trust in the people telling them what to do. And then reinforcing that through repetition and validating it with their own experiences and the encouragement of the people telling them what to do. Which is fine I guess. But for example, the difference between a manufactured model of a dog is much different than a real dog. A model looks and smells like a dog. It IS a dog, it just doesn't actually wag it's tail or dump on your lawn. But a real dog barks and jumps and licks you and chases down the frisbee and growls at strangers. It's a dog. I really have to wonder if we know the difference. The way some people view their faith they can get the stuffed pooch and be perfectly happy. Sure, I have to drag it behind me cause it doesn't walk on it's own, but it's a perfectly servicable pet. That's a little of how I feel when I see that people have to be led by the nose to get this stuff to "work right". Maybe I'm over analyzing. I respect what people do in honest faith, or I try to anyway. I should add that despite my comments I like the John Lynn I knew, who's probably a lot like the John Lynn of now. At any rate, he was a good friend. So my critique ain't personal, by any means.

That's it Geo. 24X7, no waiting. I lost count of how many times the article states "it's important to note" and "it's unfortunate" but it's enough times to know there's important stuff to note and unfortunately, some people aren't notating enough apparently. I always take issue with a Tips and Hints section to teachings on operating holy spirit, be it manifestations, gifts, or whatchcallit. Let's call it mannie's for short. "Praise vocabulary"? Words to start with to get directed correctly? I thmell a thee and thou forthcoming, thir. What happened to authentic behavior? IE, e.g. and to wit, a question - if a person was taught the acc'racy of God's Word and led to believe that they could act accordingly in faith, wouldn't the correct results follow? Or no? If a person has to be taught what to say, what it's supposed to sound like and the kinds of words and messages that should be coming out, what are we really doing here? It's just a question.

Just claim it!

I still think we need a forum titled "John Lynn's Stuff - The Real You Is Finally Here!" Then Jeff, you could place all of John Lynn's writings, transcripts of tapes, doodles, whatever, right there. It'd be cool.

Actually, I have seen dead people come back to life. It was in Ohio, at a supper meal, dead of winter. Somebody said "there's seconds!"

I thought this was one of those "...to screw in a lightbulb" questions, "how many staffers does it take to screw in a light bulb?" -just saw Mr. Hammeroni addressed this-to which I would add, it takes.... ------------------- 1 to explain the reason it's been dark for a week is your lack of believing because light bulbs could work forever if you'd ever really believe. 1 to reprove the maintenance person who was spiritually responsible for the bulb and who "made it dark". 1 to remember how someone once believed for a bulb to stay on after the power went out in alllllll of Shelby County. 1 to reprove that person for promoting "old wineskin" thinking. 1 to mark and avoid everyone involved with the entire "burnt out bulb" incident because they're all obviously homo's. 278 to deny any knowledge of any "light bulbs", and any screwing of said light bulb, either now or at any time in the past, or any persons alive or deceased who may or may not have touched the light bulb, if there had been a light bulb, which there probably wasn't. At least as far as they know. 1 to schedule the deposition to take their statements. 1 to write the next Way Magazine article titled "Victorious Living in Light", drawing deep parallels between light, plant growth and people. 1 to do the typo corrections to the article during the day because the burnt out bulb was in the Magazine department trailer. 1 to buy a truckload of light bulbs at half price, thus saving the ministry untold dollars. 1 to find out that the light bulbs only work in night lights. 1 to go to the A & P in Sydney and buy a pack of light bulbs, change the light, and be declared the new Maintenance Spiritual Leader for Our Day And Time. That oughta about do it.

ROR - Kid Rock derailment, I know. I've always felt the best part of rap and hip hop is the humor. There's some funny chit in that music sometimes, Kid Rock can do some schtick that's for sure. I think there's really 2 questions on this topic (at least) Renouncing the Way? Renouncing the Word? If it's a question of the "leadership" of the Way and their activities, it's pretty easy for people to just switch boats. Take all the teaching and ritual and just move to a different church with different leaders. Instant Offshoot. Everything you want, nothing you don't. Problem solved, at least for awhile and for some things. That oversimplifies it, but I think some people have gone that route and are happy. It solves the unchangable "MOG" syndrome. It solves the unreachable "BOT" syndrome. There's a lot of alternatives and options that open up once a person decides they're better off ending formal contact with the Way. But if a person simply finds it unacceptable to be a member of the Way due to what it's leaders do and have done they're right in leaving. Regardless of the number of times, the problems, the issues, or the methods tried, one thing that the Way International is not known for throughout it's history is changing anything substantial about what it does due to membership complaints. They may fire someone or move people around in their positions but they don't look at their core teachings to see if there are root causes in what they believe causing the problems. They don't like to talk about stuff and offer no public hearings of complaints or problems. Look at them now - they project that all their problems are solved because they've gotten rid of the "bad ones". The ones left are the "good ones". If you stay though there's some risk involved. Which goes to the 2nd question - the Word, the teaching of the Way. If the situation is - a person finds that the teaching itself is in error through the actions of the Way membership, let's say again the "leaders", then some kind of effort to resolve that is going to be required. Period. Unfortunately that's the reason a lot of people have stepped back and taken a second or third look at the whole of the Way's teachings. So it's personal, immediate. But that's not abnormal. Most of us go along the way we've always been until something upsets the apple cart. The Way presents it's doctrinal suit wholecloth. It comes in a package, it's "all truth", start to finish and to take a part of it requires taking it all. Because they present themselves as the "one true household" standing on the pure truth there really aren't any alternatives offered. There's lip service paid to not knowing it all but nothing substantial ever changes unless it's decreed by the current man/woman "of God". In that way they aren't (and have never been) much different than any of the denominations they criticize. The whole baby/bathwater description of these things oversimplifies the entire matter IMO. Same with the eat-the-fish/spit out the bones thing. These kinds of analogies assume to argue that what you had was the "baby", and the whole meal. For those who feel that way, I say fine. Have at it. If you don't the Way's teaching may be more like a crab than a fish. Properly prepared you can pick out the meat but the entire crab shell gets tossed. Where do I fall? I really value all my Way years mostly because of the people I met and got to be around, work with, etc. I was able to learn a lot of things and at the time it was probably all I could learn because of the choices I was willing to make. As I've grown, I've changed. If the person I am today was given the same choices as when I was 20, I'd choose differntly in regards to the Way and pursuing the teaching. But it's a conundrum - I wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to make that choice without the years of learning. Could God have directed me differntly? Did he and I ignored it? Or did He point "there!" and I went. Maybe it's not all that simple. Dunno. But where I landed was where I landed. So to me, it's a life lived and learned by. At this point I simply don't see the Way's teaching as a baby, a fish or really any kind of seafood to be honest. Life is bigger than that to me now. Don't tell me I can't write long posts!!! :D-->

No, it was a joke Sky. A meager attempt at "inside" humor, the inside being my brain. From in here, the view is clear and sunny. I'll have to identify my jokes from now on © ®. Although now I'm probably going to have a dream about Dorothy Owens wearing a snoot boot and Linda Z and the Way Mag staff at the 'head table' but with no food, just plates filled with blue forms as Dorothy says "you're using the wrong fork, that's the salad fork!!! © ®

Sky, do you think you know what God is trying to tell me in my dream? Finally, an interpretation! Now, that wasn't really a dream, just an obtuse reference to running on Weirwille Rd. in 1974 and Bill Maize, a man who taught Public Speaking to the Way Corps and I that I remember quite fondly. My interaction was so strong that to this day I will always remember how he would stand, arms folded behind his back, listening sagely to our 2 and 3 minute speeches. At the beginning most of us all said "y'know" about a 100 times a minute when we spoke. And he'd always nod and say "No, no. I don't know. You're telling me, remember?" His point - focus, stay on track. And at first it was infuriating but once I stopped doing it I really cleaned up how I spoke. Y'know? :D--> I remember arguing with him once, as we all did, that there was an appropriate use of those words, that sometimes it was natural. Since I did it all the time I resisted the idea of being told it was wrong, my comfort level was being intruded on. And he looked at me and said "When you've completed this instruction, maybe. That's up to you. But in this class, no, it's not appropriate". And then he smiled and said "You know?" Dreams...I see dreams as our brains sorting themselves out, not a good thing or a bad thing but something that's necessary. Shut 'er down and give it a rest. But I have had several instances where a dream was a pointed reference to something going on, with new information that played itself out later. When I recognized it happening as it had in the dream, I had one of those "deja vu" moment-feelings and proceeded. And bada bing bada boom, there it was. This happened once where I got the exact answer to a problem I was working on at work, just as I woke up. There it was right in "front of me" and I knew immediately - that's it! And it was. With all of the information stored in our brains, there's quite a bit there to work with. It's no wonder that it needs sorting out. If you could lay it all out and work with it at once who knows what could be done? To some extent dreams seem to do that, randomly pulling together all kinds of disparate pieces of our past. Or are they disparate? They wouldn't have to be. The relationships could be difficult to see in a linear view but from a-top Old Smokey when our brains are snoozing and not choosing - hmmmm. ? Maybe this has something to do with "flashbacks". Dunno.

Wow! What a blessing Extrada! :)--> You're meeting needs! There's so much available when you're tapped into all 9 all the time! Well, if uh 6... Turned out to be 9. I don't mind. I don't mind. Whoops, my flashbacks just got all kittywampus!

Geek, 3 things that I'm trying to govern my life by- -gracious living. -merciful behavior. -love. These 3 things have biblical definitions but can be approached on a simple, human common sense level. I define a "good" person and a good life by them. Gracious living is simply to give each person the highest standard of regard that I can muster at the time. "Grace" - undeserved merit or favor. I don't do good under that rule because you deserve it, I do good because I believe doing good is the right thing to do. Likwise merciful behavior. Not extending a forgiving hand only when someone deserves it, but because I believe it allows me to aspire to a higher standard by doing so. Forgiving any one person for any one thing is minor. Learning from the experience is major. Love - altruism in action. I Cor. 13 says it better than anything. Good done without the concern for return, where good is it's own reward. Grace and mercy in action. None of these 3 things prevent judgment. If someone were a self-serving greedy hypocrite, it doesn't change that, nor an evaluation of that by another person. If something stinks, it stinks. That's common sense too. These things simply provide some direction as to how another reacts and responds to it if they choose to.

Last night I dreamt I was being followed and then chased around in circles in front of Adolf's, by a crowd of people wearing "snoot boots", those small crotcheted nose warmers. I tried and tried but couldn't make my legs move, it was like running in water. I yelled out as loud as I could, "You know, I could use a little heeeelp here!" and Dale Carnegie appeared before me and said "No...I don't know...why don't you tell me..." and I woke up. Whooo. Very weird. :D--> p.s. Excathie, can I be in your Excellors group? :D-->

When listening to a minister teach, I have a tendency to clock how long it takes before the topic of giving them money comes up. :D--> It's more like a game than a flashback though. Having been in the Way for 21 years and part of fairly regimented programs and activities, it's natural that some things are imprinted so strongly that they'll remain a lifetime. It's how that information is processed is what's important I think. I don't have any huge desire to string chairs or straighten song books though. My "natural" tendencies to do certain things certain ways changes with time I've found. But still, every once in awhile something will come up and my wife and I will look at each and and crack up because some piece of trivia has hit us both at the same time. I have a tendency to drag out ancient minutiae about all sorts of things at the odd moment. Keeps her chuckling.