socks

This information isn't new, it's been kicked around in these discussion about plagarism before, but I think they bear looking at. Here's some things that come to mind: If - we define the "biblical truths" on which a class or book that teaches about them draws from as being the "ideas and information" then those truths being expounded aren't copyrightable. This follows with Mike's interpretation of VPW's work and approach - the information itself is owned by "God". And if - we define the expression of those ideas and information as being inspired and "authored" by God then they aren't copyrightable by anyone else. Not me, Mike, VPW or anyone. If the truths are God's and the "reissuing" of those ideas in the written and spoken forms of PFAL are God's, I can't claim copyright. But if - I did copyright them or invoke copyright protection in any form, it would indicate I claim ownership of the expression, either whole or in part. So if - I did, it would also indicate that I am claiming that that specific form of expression for which I claim copyright is "original" and is mine. If VPW had the same concept of ownership that Mike does, would he ever have claimed copyright to PFAL? Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another's work, no matter how much you change it, unless you have the owner's consent. We could argue an esoteric view that "God" doesn't deal with copyrights or plagarism, that those things are the product of man's views of ownership but that would mean that a person who holds to that view simply wouldn't cite copyright-they'd never use the © in relation to their works. Using it says that there is some recognition of it being an original work owned by the person. Copyright law does state that limited portions of another's work can be included in a new work. How much is legal depends. If challenged, it can be settled in court. I personally think that VPW knew very well that he was lifting portions of other's work and putting it in his. He may have felt it was the best way to state it and so he would use it. I think that's why explicit, clear recognition of the source material would be absolutely necessary if he was going to claim copyright on his new work. It would be the most honest thing to do and would allow his own work to stand on it's own. If what he did was pull together various pieces of other's work and "put it all together" it might have actually qualifed to be a "compilation" in the same way a packaging of certain songs or stories can be put in to a new collection. The collection is copyrightable but the original works contained in it are recognized as owned by the original authors. Given his description of himself as someone who "put all of this together" that would have worked fine. By invoking © he had an obligation to reconcile his work and his position on the source material in it I think, clearly and directly.

Couple points about copyrighting that I think could bear on this topic: The PFAL syllabus of 1968 says this on the cover sheet: "Power for Abundant Living with Dr. Victor Paul Weirwille Copyright, The Way Inc., 1968 No part of this work may be reproduced in any form without the written permission of the publisher The Inc. Box 328 New Knoxville, Ohio 45871 U.S.A" The oldest PFAL book I received says on the inside: © 1971 The Way Inc. All rights reserved Published 1971 Just look up the definitions and you get this from the government site: Definition of a copyright : Copyright is a form of protection grounded in the U.S. Constitution and granted by law for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works. What copyright protects : Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. Who can claim copyright : Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire, the employer and not the employee is considered to be the author. Who is an author? Under the copyright law, the creator of the original expression in a work is its author. The author is also the owner of copyright unless there is a written agreement by which the author assigns the copyright to another person or entity, such as a publisher. In cases of works made for hire, the employer or commissioning party is considered to be the author. What can't be copyywritten? a brief statement: Ideas or concepts. Copyright protects the expression of the idea, but not the ideas themselves. This is easier to understand if you remember the goals of our Founding Fathers – to reward creations, but protect the free flow of ideas and information.

I remember Trancenet, it was closed but viewable when I found it. Wrote somebody there, forget the name. Saw the acronym TWI was being used and searched for that. Got The Welders Institute, not much else. Ran in to Waydale, and so on. I don't remember what year, I think WayDale'd been up a few months before I found it.

Whew! Thanks JT. I had my administrations mixed up! Forgot my time sequences! I'd hate to think my personal devotions and penances have been for naught! :D-->

I thought it was Excathedra. --> Have I been worshipping in vain?

Interesting points, Sky. I seldom use the word nostalgia in relation to what I discuss about the Way because it implies a longing for something past, a pining for it if you will. "Oh they were good days and I wish they would come back and it could be like that right now." On Waydale I started a thread once where the topic was a spin off of why the Way has shrunk so in numbers and so many people have left. My observation to make was that for my part, there were a lot of great people and experiences in the Way years that I was involved and that good people are a huge asset. Really, a no-brainer. That component of some very unique and caring people was one of the things that was integral to the Way's growth. That component was denigrated and diminished by Way leaders more and more because they stupidly assumed that it was the biblical teaching and knowledge alone that had real value. The value of the real, living, breathing people was relegated to the least important. "It's the word of God that endures, not people!!!" all of that attitude. The results speak for themselves. Treat people like trash and they'll stop coming. Eventually you end up with a population whose values are, in a word, non-human. And proud of it. Posting that with examples as I did caused some posters to wag their heads in disgust at the sorry "nostaglia" for the good old days. "Sad sad, so sad". Which completely misses the point. My life is made up of a huge library of experiences, people, events, education, etc. etc. The fact that I was in the Way for a period can't be changed now, and everything adds to that library of experiences I've lived, good or bad. It accumulates whether I like it or not. The things I've done and learned include good and bad, it's really simple. I'm guess I'm about out of steam on these GS discussions as I think about it. It happens about once a year and it's amazing to me that since Waydale it's been a few. Sooner of later if I stop I'll have fonder memories of it later. Not that I'll be nostalgic for it of course. :D-->

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never h- loooook ouuuuuuuuuut!!!!!!!! AUUUUUUGGHGHGHGGHGHGHGHHHHHHHHH!!!"

That's the trick about this board posting stuff, HCW. After reading through this it looks like we're all posting at about the same time. About the time I'm done with my screed, hit enter, it' must be like lights going off on the board, post-post-post bingo! We got a winnah! :D--> You don't have to bow down to me, although those that do find it extremely satisfying and often send free will donations as a sign of the great help they've received. :D--> But there's no obligation! I hate to take love offerings if there's no love in the offering although in a twist, I'll suffer it. :D--> Sorry, I'm in a funny mood. But this topic isn't funny so I'll stop. I don't think on the face of it you're positing any ideas that haven't been on here before. But again, as a husband of 33 years, a father and a wide eyed bushy tailed love boy who's been around the block way too many times I gotta say - VPW was playing with fire, with the bible, with people, with all kinds of stuff. He got burned. His ministry went south, tanked and flew dead stick right in to the wall. It's sad. It's the way it is. I intend to do better by my family and I hope we all do. You included my man!

HCW, a post to consider in your post-post post: Key points at the top of the list on this topic: VPW pursued a young audience. He deliberately sought out young people in their teens and early 20's to reach with PFAL as he felt they were less institutionalized into religious thinking and would be willing to try a teaching that was different than what established church offered. He KNEW that the people he dealt with were at the beginnings of their lives, not yet mature and would be more receptive to an alternative. Regardless of whatever weird, esoteric or downright evil conceptions he had about male and female relations and whether or not he thought he was "right" (which some people believe to this day-that what he did wasn't sin) he KNEW that the people he was dealing with were at very difficult periods in their lives. He KNEW he was attracting kids coming out of broken homes, bad parental situations, desparate for some kind of direction, so much so that they'd haul off to a farm in Ohio to try something new, something they might be able to call their "own". ANY ADULT IN HIS RIGHT MIND would have been considerate and thoughtful enough to not risk potentially hurting people at that stage in their lives. Even if someone accepts the nutty idea that he was really trying to "help" women by liberating their sexuality through a real and loving experience and bring "healing" to them, they have to realize if they're even honest for a second that doing so would be so volatile as to be wrong. Getting mixed up in this kind of stuff with women is how people get really hurt. Husbands, fathers, brothers, mothers, the women themselves take action against their abusers when real depression sets in. I'm telling you for a fact that had he lived to see this stuff come to the surface there would have been hell to pay by a number of people. It's not a psycho-ditzy "who wants to accept responsibility for their actions" BS therapy session discussion. It's dangerous dang he was messing with. It says a lot about the people involved that these guys have gotten away with lawsuits. Don't think for a minute that Craig is hiding out in Ohio solely because he's getting his mind right. If he's smart he's watching over his shoulder every day for fear that some husband isn't going to reap recompence. It's only because people are as considerate and humane as they are that he's in one piece. The world is a crappy place most of the time. Life absolutely sucks for the vast majority of people. Evil people are at every corner taking the weak ones down. To have taken such risk, influenced even a small number of people if that in such a way - forget it.

Belle, you and Linda Z should open a restaurant!

It's worth watching the whole thing, they did a very good job reporting and giving equal time to all parties. (but if I hear another TV reporter start out with the line "and then something went terribly wrong" I'll spit) I would have liked to see another clip of Doug. (Doug - pat that hair down a little) The Way Suit being interviewed made a really stupid statement, namely that The Way did not believe that "Dr. Weirwille ever made that statement to (them)", in regards to Bottoms saying she was promised that she would always be able to visit that area. That's going to come back to haunt them I'm sure. Bottom's point that the area should be given some dignified consideration as a sacred or special area is reasonable I think. Certainly the Way has a right to do what they want with their property but when others have an interest in it, those interests should be given better consideration. It's more than a driveway to a house the Way "kept" and a log cabin "chalet" that has no business being in an Ohio stand of trees housing a pack of lazy, itinerant squatters who are perfectly content to mooch off the good will and hard earned money of others as long as they can get away with it. A lot more.

I see what you're saying there, HCW. Radar's right of course. California had a pretty diverse group. I wouldn't even try to describe the range of backgrounds but for the most part everyone was pretty young. I appreciate your kind comments about Joyful Noise. Thank you. I'll digress a tad, but don't let that stop anything, it'll pass. :)--> I guess I agree with you in that there are certain things that have happened in my life that I am sure happened the way I experienced them at the time. Whether I call them miracles, incredibly timely coincidences or unexplainable phenomena, they happened. Unusual events occurred enough times that I saw or was part of that I've come to expect that unusual and sometimes incredible events can and will happen. When they do I try to recognize them for what they are - good. Life sucks so much of the time for so many people that even seeing a little good sometimes is like getting water in a desert. I have a little saying that's my motto - "good is where you find it". When I do I don't argue with reality I just accept it and allow for the possibility that God is at work. Why sometimes and not sometimes, I can't account for. I do believe the completely unscientific method of "faith" is a part of it but not to the extent that we can live looking for 'results' that are completely predictable by what we see. The juice is in the moments that life is connected to the greater life of God's world. Within that framework, anything can and will happen, often very good things. I have no idea what VPW's and Craig's relationship really was. In a way, I don't care, at all. For all the men and women who have fought within the Way over it's affairs and it's leadership, all that's come of it is to tear and rip apart the fabric of the only real assets of the Way that we were ever given to take care of - it's people. I don't need any of that and don't want any of that and I recommend that anyone who's a part of it to get away from it as fast and as far as they can.

Hi HCW, didn't want to pop in on your party too soon but I see the java's flowing and the crackers 'n' cheese are well stocked! :D--> I ran in to the Way in California in '68, through friends who met VPW when he came out here then. Took PFAL in '68/69, and from there a long 21 years with the Way that included all of the ministry programs offered, worked on Way Staff for a few years, y'know, lots of stuff kids. Worked in Joyful Noise with Ted and the gang from it's startup. (I like giving Ted the 'one name' celebrity treatment, like "Cher" or "Oprah" or "Kermit") Lots of good times, good things done and learned and most wonderfully, the opportunity to work with some great people. There's some mixed up and misunderstood information on that period, nevermind the years before that. But I guess everyone can speak for what they did and saw and their own perspectives, whatever they were. And although I don't think a lot of this stuff matters one way or the other, some certainly does. One comment I'd make that doesn't matter too much but made me wonder about some of your chronology - I read - "Seeing as the first three corps were basically a bunch of drugged out, sexed up hippies when they came to HQ, some individuals of the later groups felt they could handle the tops spots better"... I have to scratch my head. Most everyone here has heard of Del Duncan of the 1st corps and dunno if anyone who knew him before of after PFAL would call him a hippie although that general description might seem to fit. But Del wasn't a flowery 60's kind of a guy ( he did like the refreshments though) :)-->. Think about the actual people in the 1st 3 corp's HCW - you sound like you knew or know them. They didn't all fall in to that category. So I don't know if you're serious, kidding or jiving. VPW visited California in 68, one year or so after he put PFAL in the can. Of that gang he met up with, yeah, 'hippies', but keep in mind that most of those people DIDN'T go in to the first 3 Way Corps and those that did, did later, after the first few corps came through. At any rate, you've got a head of steam going, so have fun. ;)--> I'll catch up here later.

I'll split the difference with you, which was why I chose "vision" as a description. :D--> I think a lot of ideas floated, ideas that would have been useful had they ever gotten off the ground. Not too many did, other than the locations for further Way Corps training programs. I agree, if there had ever been a genunine interest in doing them they would have been given some time money and effort. Gunnison and Tinney would be examples I think of failed locations that really served no serious purpose if you were interested in expanding the scope of activities of a church like the Way. They just pandered to the idea of having more locations to do what was already being done, and not that well, at locations like Emporia and Rome City that already were underway. Way Productions is another. It's completely gone the road of being "household" entertainment. True expression in any range of the arts is zero. Corporate Way bottomed out on any coherent "Word in Culture" development. And not to slight anyone still with them that might have some talent, they had a huge human brain drain amongst all the people who left, those who had any real efforts going on in those areas. The "Sunset Corps" program was another. It would have had to be started early, years before any use of it. No planning, no investment. Just an idea that wafted away. Now there's a huge portion of the Way members that are reaching retirement age, lots who have had the guts of their lives ravaged by the no-debt, no mortgage policies and misguided plans like full-time Way Corps 'staff' nationwide' that LCM initiated. There's so little to show for all the years, time, money and lives that have gone through their ministry. It's such a waste. But, like the guy who asked for directions and was told "you can't get their from here", the Way will never recover what was lost. Easy for them to say "we're looking to the future and not the past!" but with that kind of record, who in there right mind would treat them seriously? They cycle every few years, change direction, boot out or chase out anyone that doesn't march to their pipe and drum. They effectively stop any input of new ideas if it threatens their safe little niche in New Knoxville, god forbid anything should actually change that might be an improvement!

shaz- that would appear to be the case hey? at first glance it looked like something a local guy was doing as his own effort. apparently it's not. i guess it's still not kosher to do anything on your own that reflects somehow on the The Way KindofInterNationalifyoucountFloridaasaforeignCountryMaybe and not have direction from someone up above to make sure you're 'right'. cute.

I/We have a 'love rock' collection. 16 years ago we came back to Cali, and went to the beach right off after 11 days of family vacaction fun driving cross country. . Big waves, Kids went nuts, "we feel so free!!!", flipping out over the big surf. I found a rock in the shape of a heart that day and thus began a family tradition. We always look for rocks with a " little love in them" now and have dozens of rocks scattered in odd places that if you turn just the right way, they look like a heart, or at least they did when we found them. The kids even do it on their own now. sniff sniff. I'm having a sensitive moment. *honk* talk amongst yourselves..sniff.. gotta go!

I gotcha. ;)--> Politicians always have trouble with this stuff, Mr. P-Mosh. Remember Reagan being all hot on "Born in the USA" by Springsteen because he probably only understood the chorus? His people had to tell him uh, Mr. President.... Maybe Bush could have Phish's Trey Anastasio do an hour long set of guitar noodling and bouncing around. Somebody's probably just sure with a name like that he does latin music- "Get the Cuban guy, maybe he can do a duet with Ricky Martin, we need a 2 point spike in the latin vote!" :D--> Whatever the kids come up with is bound to be better than the cleaned up version though. I just flipped through CMT last week and saw some weepy cowboy hat singing about being a solider and writing letters back him from the war. (shuddering) I think Snoop Dog might have been in it, maybe not, he might have been doing a talk show or something.

Howdee Cowgirl. Are you looking for a note for note tab of the whole acoustic guitar track or a chord chart tabbed out or...? Congrats by the way to :)--> you 'n' Goey.

"There's no coffee".

Here - try this Shaz- hereThat's great, Shaz. I saw him a few times in Florida, played together a couple times after. We were in Tampa, he was further south, down in Sarasota? at the time. I always enjoyed working with him, easy to get to it and doin' it. I worked with a drummer couple times few years ago that reminded me a lot of Mike, but didn't have that laugh! :D--> I was going to add, y'know, it's a funky little site, scan the source, it's built with Cool Page or something and at least he's got decent meta tags to start with right out of the gate. All the Way green is 1 dimensional, ALWAYS needs some compimentary tints to soften it but look at the Way.org, they love that look. It's like looking at a plate of old spinach. But he's got a lot of stuff, and content ulitmate drives a site. igotten-z-outten - I remember them, yeah. Amazing what the love of god in the renude mind in manifestation will motivate people to do, huh? But then I remember a dear, once very beloved friend who'd left the Way long before I did, who I called up one day when I learned where he lived. I was still in the Way and just wanted to say hi, make some contact. The dear old beloved bastid yelled at me and hung up as soon as he found out I was still in the Way. I called back and it rang 100 times and I realized, well check it out - he must not want to talk to me. Dunno, guess if we don't all agree on who's divine butt we want to kiss we can't be friends or pee in the same urinal. But that's the way we get when we forget who we really are. Doesn't make it right, just awkward when ya gotta go. Somebody's pants are gonna get wet. :D-->

Sexy car! Congratulations. Ain't nothin' like it, that first 100 miles in a new car.

Hey, I say more power to them. That's exactly what Wayfers should be doing, IMO. People should be using technology as a means of expressing what they're doing and what they're interested in, etc, not what the Way International is telling them to do. Hopefully it will build on that if that's what they're doing. It should be interesting. Plus, they've got some cool photos of Michael Findley and the band he's in now. I wondered what Mike was up to. Good drummer. All the information for the domain name Jim posted is publically available and viewable online.

Yeah, Sky, that's my take. The only thing that never changes is that everything always changes. Regardless how we evaluate VPW's life and efforts, I know he did have a broad 'vision' of what he was trying to do with the Way that included long term planning, families, business, the arts, entertainment, all that stuff. All it really boiled down to was - what would a group of people do that were all working from the same base of understanding of the 'accuracy of the Word. How would that be reflected in their efforts if they tried to apply it in some meaningful way. There was a lot of that, as you'd expect. But, by orchestrating so many things so personally himself and running them out of his own center, the basic essence of authentic behavior and true natural expression was stunted. It's like saying "everyone be smart...right now! and do something really great! and be happy, too!" What you get is what you asked for, not what would have naturally flowed from the people themselves. All of the tunnel visioned Corps this and Staff that and blah blah blah was like planting a 100 pound weight on the ankle of a baby. Revolutions are messy, dynamic, thrilling, and tumultuous. People make mistakes, fail, succeed. They lurch forward 5 steps and drop back two and then broad jump 25 in a single leap. They aren't orchestrated and dressed up in frills and foam core and delivered in retermorized oratory and repeated till everyone knows what to say and when to laugh and applaud at all the right times. When I really look at the numbers of enthusiastic people that came through the Way over the years - the intelligence, talent, imagination....you have to wonder what might have happened had VPW simply said "I'll teach the bible. I like to do that. Then I'd like to help all of you see what you can really do....who's first?" Myself, I'm not the least bit nostalgic for the past, but it was my life and I lived it. We all have the opportunity to learn from life and reflect upon it and evaluate the gains and learn from the losses. Y'know? :)-->

Cooool, reikilady. When do we get to see it? :)--> The wanna be a cowboy tune is a catchy one alright... "headin' out west where the sunshine's shining..."

I think I recognize that Million Dollar Man Sky. Wonder if he did it? I guess...I'd describe it as VPW's Plan A, sort of a base level of training and committment that he always wanted from day one, whenever that was. The Corps program could have very well tanked over and over and to hear him talk at the time it was a constant up and down of achievement and failure. But I know many people on staff that he personally encouraged to "go Corps" and remember him clearly saying his long range vision was everyone, staff, twig coordinators, etc. to be Corps graduates. So to some that meant go in early and get "assigned" somewhere to something forever. To others it meant step out of your gig whatever it was and complete the Corps program and then continue on. Plus, the mass body of Corps grads were a pretty flexible group of people that remained largely open to any assignment that rolled out the pike. But I'd also say he fully expected people to develop pursuits of their own that could very well direct their future "careers". It's at that point, say late 70's, that I'd say the whole synergy of programs, classes and direction VPW had built started slowly imploding on itself. Masses of people running around doing...what? Sooner or later everyone was going to get older, marry, have families, and develop interests. But sequestered in Way World Brain Freeze it was as if a whole couple generations turned in to Peter Pans, thinking everyone would keep on doing what they'd done, forever. There was a HUGE need for a real retooling of the ministry vision and plan to build for a future, but it never really took hold enough to allow for the dialogue to begin. I do know that VPW began to address that very specifically in 1984 the year before he died at the Corps Week but he was pretty much shut down by Craig and the Trunk office for lack of time or interest. But some of us were very interested. Like me, I'd had one foot out the door for a few years already, it was just a matter of time before I'd have taken a different direction with our family. I've always felt that, had their been no "POP", there would have been a poop of some kind eventually. The closed-corporation culture of the Way was just too limiiting to work long term. Look at them now, not exactly taking the world by storm, perfectly happy to doink along. But, then...there was one staff couple, been there for years, kept going to meetings where VPW would go on and on about how he wanted the Corps to be the real training ground, how everyone should at least consider it, etc. etc. So they applied, told everyone, did all the preparations and got accepted and went to Emporia. So the first week or so of the program the husband bumped in to VPW at a Corps meeting. He told me later he said "What are you doing here?!" When he said uh, they were in the corps program now he acted surprised. So go figure.