socks

Sorry, I hadn't read this entire thread until today. Much of what I've posted is peat and repeat, so I'll try to move to another of the sub topics. I noticed this statement from an earlier post of shiftthis, restating something that another person he understood to have a close relationship with the Way had told him: " he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister and so what "if" vp did." Amongst all the rest of the discussion on this thread I think this highlights a reality - and that is, people can indeed say anything they want now, and there are probably 100's, 1000's of versions of the Way, VPW and the history involved. VPW was a denominational minister long before the 70's. He didn't use the ministerial designation after he went on his own, no "Rev." used at all by the time he firmed up PFAL on film. "Dr.", yes. The "free love" era is the 60's - by the 70's, I think they were charging for it. If VPW maybe had some sex in the 60's or the 70's with women that weren't his wife, that's not good. That would be considered a problem that he would need to work out. There might be situations and circumstances, fine - doesn't make it right and long term - that's a no go in God's Word, that disqualifies a man from ministry in the body of Christ if they can't get their minds right - and even the laws of the land frown on it. Shiftthis's friend is wrong. But hopefully VPW had more than some maybe-sex back in the 70's - he was married and had children. I'd think - well, that's really more of a private area of one's life, usually. If shiftthis's buddy meant that maybe VP had some sex in the 70's - that was long after he'd completed the process to form the Way International, Inc. and would have been right in the middle of a period in the Way when he was most active in travel and site building (Emporia, Gunnison, Rome City). The Way Corps program was fully realized, WOW Ambassador program, etc. etc. VPW was in Christian ministry for decades before the 70's. As those years and later ones fade into the mist of time, decades from now it may be that no one's going to care one way or the other. It behooves us today to get our hearts and minds right however and in our best interests, as God has set them out for us to live.

Well sure, OSk. Smaller numbers work well - there's no more spends, no funding. Bare bones maintenance. I'd call it a society, a closed one but largely a social circle, with it's own culture, traditions, practices and observances. Kind of like the Amish but without the cool outfits and sense of humor. I think it was 1985 or so - the state of Florida announced it had hit the million dollar mark for that year, in ABS. I'm sure it wasn't the first or the only one. You know - you KNOW there isn't a million dollars a year coming in from the entire country now. They've lowered the bar by claiming to raise their standards to only those who are "faithful ones" to the "prevailing Word" and the "true household" and all of that baloney. Success at the Way isn't whether anyone actually buys or uses what they're selling, if anything has actual practical value in real time, ongoing and consistently - it's that they are still there at all, simply - that they exist, the remnant, the faithful few. That's some mighty bright lipstick on that pig, y'know?

But Linda, if you don't go, you can't grow! If you don't sit, you can't sh....uh, never mind. It's true though, isn't it? Best example - the commodity that Lynn has started to sell is - Lynn! He's finally gotten at least half way honest about the product - it's him, the Lynnster, the JAL-Man himself. He's circulated that tripe about - "when have you ever had a bad time listening to me?"...................... As the great Peter Green wrote - don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. In his case, I can't recall that much of significance that he ever said while I was seated. He was great at repeating material and rewording it. Kind of a soap sales guy, give him the product and he can come up with a rap to wrap around it. I've known many people who do that, and do it for free, no charge. Mo' meaningful the first 1000 times I heard it but like you my tail's not what it once was and I like to keep it moving unless the yap is REALLY good. I mean REALLY good. Hell, half the people I work with are better and more convincing presenters than Lynn and it's not even the bible we're presentin'. Maybe he just needs to get out more, or his followers do, dunno. Oddly and interestingly, Doctah Weirwille covered the foundations for this in PFAL, and when it's looked at from an internal PFAL validation it's very clear that behavioral ethics are mandated in the bible - thus, something like charging for the time and materials that God's Teacher uses to teach that which hasn't been known since the first century - just look at what the Way did with the money. Coaches and apple trees are minor expenses compared to the larger investments - Emporia, Gunnnison, Rome City, Tinny. The growth of the Way ministry needed constant growth to support itself so there was never going to be a time that priming the pump wasn't first on the agenda - that's the only way it could be sustainable. For example Emporia spent money - the Way Corps sponsorship $ never fully paid for the program once they paid off the initial investment in the property - It was underwritten by the Way Nash, Inc. So the Way Nash Inc. had to have increasing income to support it - and the other locations and programs that were developed. Thus it needed mo' $$ coming in. Mo' new grads, mo' people going through the programs, mo' expense - and during the time the people are going through the programs they aren't earning income to tithe to the Way. The life cycle of a person in the Way going through it's classes and programs, plus what the Way Nash spent on it's staffing of headquarters itself to maintain a central location to manage from - required more "New" people to be coming in - basically "new money", year after year. This hit me like a ton of bricks around 1980 and a couple of trusted peeps I kicked it around with helped me to validate it - the math would never work if it kept growing and it needed to keep growing to support the...growth. Weirwille's set up was like a company CEO who gets paid a dollar a year - but lives in the company condo, gets driven in the company limousine, eats on per diem and has signature authority for purchases that get approved. By people that work for him. Fast forward to today. Look at the Way now and the way they're set up. Badda bing. Apparently Martindale missed the memo - "you can do whatever you want but whatever you do do NOT stop the train from moving down the track, DO NOT alienate your core members to the point they break down and leave - or you will WILL be riding around in a used Toyota in 5 years. :biglaugh:

Great reference Steve. It underscores some things, I think. We all know we're human, and the Christian doctrines speaks to sin and the products of it. We believe this life is not the end of the line nor the total sum of the effort. So - knowing that we are imperfect, saved by grace, new people in Christ and in this life will still see our physical natures tend towards weakness and failure, we - let's say - build a life to strengthen it, protect it and to pursue the best life we can, knowing all the good stuff and all the bad stuff to. Or, knowing what we know, let's say. No one says anyone has to be a teacher, or a prophet or anything at all. We see these as "callings", opportunities to serve, responses to God's purposes. Not something people dream up, something that God directs and that serves His purposes, which always have an eternal characteristic to them, a here and now and a then and coming perspective. Added responsibility. Not for the faint of heart. Not for everyone, to be sure. Not even for some for their whole lives. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance but they're also with purpose, both for the individual as well as the church. Thus - the things we read of qualifications and standards like those in the didache as well as the N.T. can't be dismissed as contrary to God's grace and mercy nor moral religious judgements of no authority. They are requirements - honesty is a huge on present in there, as well as Timothy and Titus. Both in character as well as actions. We know there will be challenges - that's why there have to be safeguards and boundaries - not the least of which would be sound counsel, accountability and communication with others. Those kinds of things would simply be the product of the kinds of standards and qualifications we read there. The tendency in the 20th century in the evangelical movement has been to generate single owner, standalone organizations that only work in cooperation with others by choice. Kind of an mildly organized chaos. Tradition and dogma call the shots with each sect determining their own organic essence being the most "truthful". If someone decides they don't like something or disagree with something, they start their own sect, splinter, church, ministry, what have you. Technology has served this very well too. Mixed into that you get a lot of people (I think) who get in the kitchen, can't stand the heat and so move the oven. They run their own shows, they make the rules and thus they will say they "only answer to God" - which is absolute BS. Those who serve God's people answer to those people and will to their Shepherd and their Father. It's not a do - as - you - believe - is - right calling. We need accountability - it was baked into the very life of Jesus Christ, what He taught His followers, their efforts following the resurrection and the ensuing growth in numbers.

Thanks Steve. It's a nail that's gotten a lot of work over the years, that's for sure. To the tune of "Nobody Does It Better".....Luke 24: And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Behooved it not the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24 describes the very human followers of Christ and their coming to grips with the resurrected Jesus Christ. Everything that happens after that in their story tells of a group of people who were forever changed. Absolutely, internally, intellectually and emotionally. It's difficult to imagine them doing something as dishonorable as selling that information to others. Judas is the guy in the tale that sold what he knew and we see where that got him. As forgiven as all but part of a complex road down. It's easy to accept forgiveness. It can be much more difficult to know what to do with it. I would advise all of us, certainly those making a living off of the Gospel, to give a great deal of thought to what we do in God's Name, and consider what we can learn from this first generation of followers of Christ. I always bitch about this money deal. The last time I went on a rant about it here somebody wrote me and said I was too uptight about the money and class charges. Hey - I believe Jesus died for me, my sins and is my Redeemer and very much alive today, albeit not as He was then. So yeah, they're g-dammed right - I get real serious about it. I accepted this $$ process once as an acceptable means to an end. I stopped thinking that way and I don't do it anymore. It's wrong. Black and white. Boom, that's it. These money sucking tics can do what they want. Peace out!

Absolutely! "Minimum donation" is perhaps the biggest lie in the game. Donation, to donate to (something) or on behalf of something, is basically to give a gift. "Charitable donations". There's as many ways to turn that phrase euphemistically and legally as there are tics on a politician but as widely understood by the average person on the street, it's not the same as a "charge" or a "fee", it's not something being paid in exchange for something else. The religious casino's that register people for these classes and require a minimum donation of any amount are simply saying that 1. you will need to "donate" to our casino, and you will need to make it no less than a certain amount and you will need to do that before you can get this thing we're offering. Selling - the correct word then would be that they're selling. Which goes back to the other big lie, that of selling something that isn't yours. That's called stealing, again in common terms any normal person could understand. The equation seems to go like this, some math is required: Count the total number of times these words are used - "God's Word", "matchless", "principles you can use in your daily life from the Bible", "like no other" and "you can't hear this anywhere else"...... Multiply by the number of hours the matchless class runs..... Add that total then to the number of times you're told how much you need it...... And that will always and without fail - as if by magic - always equal 100% BS. Never fails. The sad part of this is seeing how some of our old bud's and budettes have become so cute in their methods of doing this but are really running the same table, year after year. It's all talk though, no game. Somewhere, sometime, at some point, you're going to end up in a chair listening and watching them yap. How much is that worth? Only you can decide

Avast, ye sons of weevils! Money hungering sow's are they! All to a man! If it's "God's Word", and it's "His Word" and the "Word of God" is what's being taught.... They why the F**K am I or anyone else charging money for it as if it were mine? It's not mine to sell. Commerce. It's all commerce. Bid'ness. You can't say "donation" without saying do nat and that's just what you need to not do - do NAT do dat, sell it. It's a moral and ethical dilemma, solved by doing the only thing you can do if you want to charge $ for "God's Word" and that is to ignore any and all semblance of honesty and just wallow in the ensuing filth that will be the product of your actions. You will suffer, drown, you will look morally deformed and physically twisted in the end, confused and sadly unable to understand what you did wrong which was no less than trampling on the very thing you sold as sacred. Pretzel logic, hold the salt. Doesn't even matter if it was or not - selling it as the holy thing, made sacred by the value of those who held it to be so - you're chit up a creek heading for a puddle. They get better at it though - Jim Bakker's selling generators to the apocalypse now people. Geez, the scrawny little rodent can still look people in the eye - amazing. Osteen's got it down cold. Best show in town. John Lynn - well gawsh, who ever had a bad time hearing Lynn mug his way through his latest 10-step program? Grab a metal chair or a yard of rug and sit your fat a sz down, you paid good money to hear this styro fomic puffed blow hard, so enjoy the blow.

Yeh LZ - I've fought labels all my life, I don't like to use them on others anymore than I like them used on me. A person doesn't have to be a Repub'can or Dem'crat to be a jerk. Or an engaged and inspired person. Course I do label things and people, so I can't say I'm perfect. Politicians are suspect critters, to me. Today the job requires such an acceptance of vile and bile it seems no decent person would want the job of representing a group of voters. There are some though and it may be that the worst of the political process is just a representation of the worst of our society. LIke a very expensive mirror. Farkbake as I sometimes like to call it is a fun thing to have though. It's got it's ups and downs for me. I've been very happy at the opportunity it affords to hook up with people and connect. It's a sucky arrangement though - it's free for the most part so for the price I'm paying I can't complain too much but the direction it's gone is lame but I ignore the features I don't like or want and try to adjust to the never ending changes and enhancements. It's funny though - the one things that's pretty bullet proof is the 'unfriend' thing - I guess it's honor amongst thieves for Fachbike programmers.

Well, yeah. Maybe it's just me but I don't make "friends" based on our political views specifically, it's generally other things. And maybe it's just me but I have friends who definitely don't think like I do politically that are intelligent, compassionate and caring people. Hmmm. It's a really valuable thing to understand that in this life there are some things you absolutely can not and will not ever change, no matter how much you want to change them. Sometimes you have to take stock, see the differences, and let them stand and go on from there with the common good in mind. That is very much the "American Way", IMO.

I don't think I"ve unfriended anyone for political reasons. I have a lot of friends who are conservative, and others very liberal and all points in between. I have made some fairly pointed statements from time to time. The Anti-Obama crowd could find something wrong with a blue sky and blame it on Obama, so that's a knee jerk stuff, I ignore it although a lot of good information is distributed by the same people too. It's the same with the Anti-Romney crowd. I'm also noticing that there's a lot of shifting going on this year - so who knows where people will end up. If I find after getting to know / re know some people that we're not on the same wavelength for how we use facebook - like I get endless bible verses of the day, or floods of feel good affirmations and pictures of a political candidate with Lucifer horns photoshopped in, I may juggle the amount of inspiration I'm getting from them in my news feed. You can also hide them from your news feed. I do that for completely non political reasons, and juggle the feeds from time to time, that way I can concentrate on people's input and stuff. I can always visit everyone's page as much as I want to anyway. Plus if there are 100's of those in the News feed, it becomes unwieldy to manage, especially on an iPhone. You can "hide" or limit the amount of updates you get for feeds from friends. That might be an alternative for you, that way you don't see quite as much of what you don't want to see. But the mobile view of Facebook stinks anyway, no matter what. I've been unfriended by some people. I guess they don't appreciate scintillating prose, insightful commentary, gut splliting humor and of course, the ultimate good-thang, Me, in all my splendor and wonderfulness. So be it. :biglaugh:Can't do much for that kind of emotional and intellectual squalor.

Those are good questions, Twinky and ways'. Deut 18: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. etc. The Deut reference seems to be speaking about a specific kind of thing - that if the guy makes the call that something is going to happen - and it doesn't, then it wasn't from God. It's less of a general instruction and more specific - if something's going to occur and the guy calls it, it will - if God has revealed that thing to the prophet and told him to reveal it to others. This is underscored in a lot of the "thought" in the Bible I think. "Know them by their fruit", would be similar - the results speak for themselves - it's not exactly the same scenario but how a person can validate their perception is where there's a proof based in a reality. A lot of the Bible isn't really specific and wouldn't tell a person to make specific decisions - people may pray about what car to buy. God doesn't appear to be in the car business, that's man's business. God cares about people, and I can draw an assumption that in the big wide world of probabilities there's a right thing and a wrong thing to do with that - but "God's Word" doesn't speak to that decision. Be honest, be efficient, be fair, those sorts of things but there's no "buy the blue one" in the Bible. I see the Deut reference as a very specific kind of instruction, an if/then statement - if the guy says it's going to snow blue Cheerios tomorrow morning, and if that's from God, then get your bowls out, it will. If it doesn't, it wasn't. If the grits don't fit, you can't acquit. Or something to that effect. The future is just so....like all so tomorrow and stuff.

Yep, shiftthis, something along those lines makes sense. Glad to read you're a player, may all your endeavors be successful! Thanks dabobbada and all, missed the earlier comments. Appreciate the kind words. And back at ya! Yes indeed. Sat for a couple of fine hours last night with the poster previously known here as alfakat and his wife, sister and husband at a jam packed local spot. He is a fine fellow from the earlier years and he and his wife have lived quite a life, as have you! Great people, and so good to see. He said something I agree with completely - that amongst all of the things from these past years the one thing that stands out prominently, without question and is like gold is - the people that we met and knew and worked with. Absolutely "the best", wonderful, concerned, interested, interesting, caring, hard working and down right swell-the peeps. You are amongst them. That we intersected brought honor and light to my life. I'm glad for all that remains that is good. Thanks for that to all! It's absolutely amazing in so many ways, more than I can count. Thank you!

"Just when I thought I was out...." Hi there shift. Dunno - I do apologize for the initial tone of my response if it seemed rasty, I did think this was a joke. Slap my asz and call me Judy, now we're serious and I want to clarify what I wrote. I was "in the Way" as they say from '68 PFAL, till about 1989, give or take. I met David earlier on in the SF Bay Area, and before going back there to Ohio. I'd met Skip M before that and we all knew some of the same people. Later I was in Way Productions at the Way Nash, Joyful Noise and played guitar and worked with that initial effort from it's inception through 1980. I left in 1980 but kept contact with the work over the years up till I left - the rest is water under the bridge. The development of "Takit" was influenced by many different people, the times and the inevitable change that occurs in an organization and it's efforts. When members were being discussed for that work DG was at the top of the list of course - his availability, etc. As it worked out he took it on and his leadership both musically and personally had a significant impact on it's initial successes. (as you'd expect). I don't know what DG meant or what happened in your conversation. DG did was in fact the initial drummer for that band. The drum chair changed after a year or so - I'm fuzzy on the who/what/when's of his leaving, it's just been a long time since all this, but he did. Michael came in at a point, sounds like others did too but I wasn't in contact with them for most of the time they were down in L.A. and only got caught up on it all years later. Anyone who was around in the early 80's there when they were on the road with the production that year saw him with them, and he was always introduced by name, of course. But Dave was part of it. I don't know what he meant by what he told you, I'm sure it was correct in the context of the conversation you were having. In some ways this isn't a big deal, definitely not to me. And while I respect their effort in that band and they did make good music that wasn't the sole goal of the effort - but it was a primary goal in why it was formed. DG was an asset and contributor to those goals - of course, he's a great musician. Like all of the Way's efforts though it wasn't completely reliant and built around single personalities. Members shifted. This isn't unusual at all in music efforts, bands, etc. TOP's roster over the years is a perfect example of that kind of dynamic. I'm sure Dave's List of Best Of's might already be loaded up - I'm sure it was meaningful to him in certain ways but he's had a busy career of great work. I realized years ago that as time passes, information and history is going to get blurry on all of this Wayfer stuff. A lot of it is now, and there are many different perspectives on events. Hope this helps in some way. Either way, play long and prosper!

Yeh, we can put this one to bed. Nighty night, sleep tight! Something's amiss, knowing Dave and everyone in the first couple iterations of the Takethat band, yeah. While I respect the players and the efforts for Dave it is likely a part of a career that's had a lot of high points. It was one for me to have heard him with them. But it was a long time ago, too. Wilie Grove, I don't think I know Willie. I've heard the name, people speak of him and I think it's all been good, but I don't think I know him personally or his playing. Sorry, vague on that. I'm biased though as you can probably tell - if Willie played with any of these guys, he's good at what he does, I'm sure. Playing with great musicians is like a good ride on the dragonfly! No argument there, just on face value. And that being the case he wouldn't need me to validate that but 2 cents are cheap around here. Dave - he would have to speak for himself. He's just so off the chart-good in his skills I'd almost have to agree that if he said he didn't play with Takit, I might actually consider that he'd gone back and changed the past through the use of some massive barrage of ghost notes played so fast that it bent time and space in such a way that he was able to go back and replace himself with someone else. I'm joking. I think. My impression of Dave over the years is that he's always been very careful and considerate of who he plays with and when. That appears to have served him well. As with his return to TOP - it's like gold and the music is top tier stuff. But Takit had some talent, and yeah, it was a great effort in my opinion. Collect your .02 cents coupon,good for a free coffee! I've been kind of a wise guy here, earlier, sorry, I don't mean to bend anybody out of shape. Live, well, long, prosper, all that stuff mah peeps! Peace out!

That's true, excartesis. But really good at it, hey? But I wouldn't tell a lie! Takit was a fine band, a collection of talent that made some very good music. Dave, Skip, Danny, on a whole 'nother level. Dean and Dan too, in different ways. Both extremely talented and dare I say "gifted" songwriters. As good as any, in their styles. The things the spirit speaks and the heart feels they were able to put out into words - what's the value of a moment of enlightenment, of healing, of warmth? They delivered more than once. Danny is still at the top of his game, a great player and I'd say he flat out kills except it's probably more like life when he does it. Really good, by other words. Had dinner with him earlier this year. Nice as the day is long, love to talk shop with him. Skip wrote some excellent music too, he was really multi-talented - sax, reed instruments, keyboards, songwriting, singing. I don't think he ever held an instrument he couldn't play. Geez, he picked up an accordion and within an hour was wailing and when he played it, it sounded cool. Anyone else - wassat? But Skip had his way of making gracious music out of anything and of course on the sax - beautiful. He was one-of-a-kind and so missed by those who knew him. But, there will come a day... As for Dave G, fuggedaboudit. Top 10 of all time on the drums. Of course he played with Takit there, for the first year or two it was, then Michael stepped in, another really talented percussionist, and a great guy, a "class act" all the way. I assume this was a joke post as it started. I like a good joke. See? Ha ha. See y'all! All my best.

Just passing through, folks. I was asked to confirm this. Yes, it is in fact true. In fact, the "Willie" noted was AKA "Willie B*" AKA Willey Brone AKA Willee Browne, all known aliases of the former Mayor of San Francisco. Yes, it's absolutely true, the former Mr. Mayor of SF was and still is a very talented but little known percussionist who did in fact work with the band "Takit" for a year or so there, don't recall if it was full tenure or not. But he definitely had some pop with the skins and at that time bore a striking resemblance to David, but only from a distance as shi t fthis has noted. Of course, upon closer inspection one would know the difference but from a distance - hardly tell 'em apart. Added information bonus for those who are still reading - the band wasn't really named Takit, that too has been kind of a mix up. Their real name was Toolkit, but there was a misprint on some early promotional material, due to a bad phone line when the initial order was made and the person ordering sneezed...."AaaaaahTallllkaaaht!" and it was misunderstood to be "Takit". So yeah, the rest is history, form taking precedence over function or something to that effect. Or affect, take it or leave it, face value and all being what it is. These statements are absolutely true as told to me by a former attendee of the Drumz and Thumbz, fellowship, a group of finger harp players who once double billed with Flower Tower, a cover band that does all TOP music, exclusively (except for their work with Rinse, a Beatles knockoff band of the cover group Raine). But don't quote me. :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Yeah, like I said, you can see what that was going. Thanks!

Well, it's dammed hard enough to put together a life that's meaningful to our progeny that can have lasting effect past our own lifetimes. Today we capture so much of it - an archiving issue is a coming for those who have a precious 50,000 photos stored somewhere. No one will have time to go through them, if they want to. But they'll be "there" for anyone who does and has the time and inclination. The meaningful stuff of value will be held on to and the stuff that won't fit into the next garage or closet or shelf will just go the way of all flesh. Hmmmmmmmm.....where have I read that before? For me the value of things in my life aren't attached solely to the value that others place on them. What I invest into something gives it it's value. Those closest to me know that. My kids will look at a guitar someday and it will have a value, as a collectible. I hope they hold it and feel the music that's been made with it. Or remember the times I sat and deedled on it endlessly on the couch watching TV. The value of the Way - things like the property, the trailers, the roads - those things in and of themselves have little value regardless of who views them or what they think of them or the Way. Probably the single most valuable asset we have in life is time. No one else will fully appreciate the investment of another's time the same way as that person does. We share it to the degree that we've shared that time together. If it was spent wisely and was meaningful to me that will never change, that value will always be the same - to me. For me that's the weave in the fabric of the things we pass on to each other as we come and go in this life. LIke our own stuff everything comes and goes in time, even the things we try to hold on to from those who came before. Sooner or later it passes, it has to, the world simply won't hold it all in storage. There is however lots of storage in our minds, our hearts. It stacks up, folds in, melds, and becomes the fossil fuel of future generations. "The future has a past". My goal is to make some of mine worth remembering to someone down the line, a little fuel for the next fire. And yeah, the cheap trailers and the b s, etc. etc. as noted and stated, cheap cheap cheap. Yeah, all of that - box checked.

Free the T-shirts Roy! But I bet ol' Paw gave away more than he sold. GS may be one of the best examples of a freebie on the web I've seen. I like the ads and sometimes I've wished GS would put the bucket out for a donation once or twice a year just to pay the rent and allow participants the kind of pride of ownership that would permit some serious abuse. Just kidding, but it wouldn't be a bad idea, really. Course I haven't ponied up any dinero's on my own so yeah. You can see where that's going. I think I'd only put a ditto next to WW's post. You might run your book by someone like an editor someday, just someone else that might have some experience - I think I suggested that before. Not so much for the grammar or words (and everyone - EVERYone benefits from an editor's second pair of eyes) but more to possibly condense sections of it to single chapters. I've got a book thing I've been working on for 3 years and it's not easy, I'll say that, although the first draft rolled out pretty easily. Didn't make any sense but it came out quickly. It's just a suggestion not a criticism. If I remember right you go through a series of chapters that cover a lot about relationships, diet, and a lot of stuff and how those things affect who we are and how we think. DNA too right? It's insightful and might read easier if it were pulled together a little tighter. If it's important to you that you wrote it it might be good to do that. Using the posting/thread format is tough for some things, works fine for others. I've always had a hard time with it to be honest. I don't post on any net boards but when it comes to ex-Way boards named GreaseSpot Cafe this is the one I choose. It's in fits and starts. Till the next fits...

Yeah, I'm probably cheap in a lot of ways. I HATE that I can buy something and then be expected to toss out the perfectly good box, case or container it came in. It takes some thought, little changes in how I live. I avoid packaging and bagging when I can but there's a lot you can't. I recycle but that's an industry built on wasteful practices to begin with IMO. I do it though, get some semblance of sanity out of the insanity of modern consumptive practices of which I'm a part. Self - Loathing is my middle name. But I have tools I've owned for 40 years in my shop, pliers I bought in 1973 come to mind, shoes I've worn for 10 years, fishing gear that's been in the water all over the country. I like keeping stuff I can take care of. Deals is my name in dog years. Always looking for the scam that will out scam the scammers that scammed up the pricing structure. Less is more when it's what goes out of my bank account. The type of business the Way is will always creates a budgetary environment where some are getting paid, some are getting the benefits, and some (most) aren't. Getting any. If you work for them, you get a salary (or did at one time), you get certain benefits that go along with that, be they small or not. The income supports the effort that produces and maintains the products and services. The customer pays for them. The Way never met a class it didn't charge for. There's always a donation. The Way teaches that their product - the "Word" - is priceless so don't bitch about paying a few bucks for it, for "materials" and the delivery system. Since you can't ever really pay what the "Word" is worth the fees and charges are considered miniscule by comparison. And any effort you yourself put towards it is a privilege so shuuuudup, get to work. And the real money has always come from demanding tithes and other cash $ be given to them, a gang that would make the Mafia look like cub scouts, as they don't even guarantee protection for your per centage, push comes to shove there aren't many "good fellas" in their camp. Any reasonably thoughtful fool will see sooner or later that you either take that on face value and go with it or opt out. The Way offers no alternatives, so it is what it is. I know some people find a happy medium they're happy with, but from the Way's corporate stance they only function one way and that's the way they always have and if you don't like it, beat it. It really hasn't changed a lot. The fact that the Way has assets of - what? 16 million, more? it's sitting on and still functions the way they do indicates they have a plan they're acting on - they're a tiny teeny company, a small organization and have no aggressive vision to expand their base operations. They're in maintenance mode. As a result they will be "frugal" and what they do spend won't reflect a real interest in long term quality since the long term existence of the base operation can be kept with minimal spend. Sooner or later it will crap out though, it has to but I doubt anyone there really cares to plan ahead for that. At the Way foam core will always work where wood and brick might be preferable. Build cases for the foam core to protect it, but don't build anything that will actually stand up and last for years to come. The few exceptions - the auditorium for example, don't amount to much in the long run IMO. You could probably build twice the facility today for half of what it cost in $ and labor. Just a guess, never done the math but knowing what's being done today by other churches that would be my guesstimate, give or take. Cheap? Hell yeah they're cheap. They've probably still got a Benjamin or two of mine sitting somewhere being fondled by a bean counter, even still today, keeping it warm.

When the Ozster lifts this kid up during the solo, he doesn't blink an eye, worth the view alone. A double set of balls for this kid staying on a stage with a nut throwing buckets of water around too. <br> <br> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k1lG1y0R6sU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Something as serious as this may be the catalyst for him to go deep. Rather than seem like a callow cur I do agree with Kit, it's got to be tough to be Roberts Jr. He was raised in an extremely difficult world and money was involved. His Dad is one of the big promoters of the "seed faith" movement. I've all but taken O Roberts off my radar but he was certainly part of a huge movement in American religion that scraped dollars out of people's pockets, teaching the blessings of God that flow back to the giver of a gift. Like money. Jr. was raised on that. These family ministries become little empires, cash cows for the founders and often, unlike in the Way, for their families. They begin to see all of the resources of their church as their own and for their own use and have no problem livin' the life on God's people's dollar. I do pray for anyone who commits a crime like this because it's a serious offense to themselves as well as all those around them. On that level it has nothing to do with him being a minister or any of that, once you get tied up in the law like this you have many years of repercussions that affect you. If you don't clean your act up it will haunt you for years and if there's a next time it can be worse. Much worse. Course a lot of celebrities get off and go their own way with a slap on the hand but if you keep coming back it's gonna get you. Most of all I hope that he gets it together, a good start would be junking all of that theology his Dad wrapped around the giving of money and the buying and selling of God's gifts. But bottom line, anyone who chooses to kill themselves be it a drink at a time or like Robert's other son with a bullet - do it away from the rest of the world and don't put others at risk. But it's a sad waste of good life and a lesson for all, bad way to learn it but a lesson.

Well yah, no wonder these guys drink. Somebody's great grandfather somewhere had five too many and came up with the perfect name to ruin your life. Aural - that would be okay I guess. Either way - don't drink and drive. Drink and throw up on your own carpet, please but not at 93 mph.

Good point WW. :) That old promo film had Walter Cummins, "college student". Little known fact : In 1972/73, there were no trailers in the back of the property, those were added to house the incoming 4th corps. Now the little known part - In '73 all the incoming comers for the 4th Corps got letters from Howard Allen letting them know that they would need to Bring their own trailers. I know - I got a letter and we got in touch with another couple doing pricing, etc. and trying to figure out what we'd need to have, to do, to know. About a month later we got another letter saying the housing would be set up. In the interim I called Howard and also spoke to Gene Randall there and gathered the spec's on what we'd need to do - like would there be pads (concrete), or was a 5th wheel preferable (and it wasn't clear but the 5th wheel set up was looking like the best route as I recall). I'd worked for a couple months in a mobile home factory, doing wiring, so I actually had some resources for information. And yes, I was thinking that if it wasn't going to be ready we'd just wait a year or till whenever it was. Wierwille was always in a hurry. Emporia, same thing. The original set of trailers were left on flat bed through the first winter with temporary wiring for heat and lights, and no water. Showers etc were in the EOB as it was called then. Early spring they started the installs. It was an adventure at the time, but the pattern of the Way Nash at that time was that it was often short on money, then as time went on and money came in it was a matter of how to spend it.

People - anyone, all humans - need to not drink and then drive a car while intoxicated. I probably drink less in a year as some you do in a week, but I carry a little digital "breath a lyzer" gadget in my glove box, so that anytime I am out and have more than one drink I can test myself. Drinking and driving is just stupid. Preacher's are not immune to that. He was cited for driving 93 mph in a 65 mph zone Intoxicated. Throwing stones? I'd have used a big one to at least get him off the road. Geez, I don't care if he's a Mormon Scientologist Christian Scientist Pope - get that mother off the road. Dammed right he needs help. He'll have lots of it if he gets into the DUI program in his state and they won't be crying in their coffee about how hard it must be for a PK. Once you get in the belly of the beast you have plenty of time to think about it. Follow the Path of Ham - drink too much? Walk. Or call a cab or a friend. Or just fall over in the gutter. Stay out of your car. Having said that - IMO DUI law is way out of whack in the U.S. - in California it varies from county to county and isn't equitable or reasonable. I completely agree that DUI is dangerous activity. I don't agree with the laws or law enforcement on how it's managed. It's widely understood that if you have between 20 and 50 k you can get any marginal toxicity test in a first time DUI tossed out of court. For the same amount you can get the penalties minimized - if you have the money. If you don't, you're screwed. I have a feeling he'll be handled with respect.