socks

LCM's "first thought" reinvented VPW's point which allowed for "if" - there was no guarantee that the revelation would be there, occur, float by, whatever. At the same time though VPW strongly implied that "all 9 all the time" was the order of the day. An individual should expect action. So where do you draw the line? I put it just right of center, more conservative and cautious. Yeh, LCM was a first thoughter alright. It really was funny in an bad sort of way that LCM (and others) would so quickly take an idea and just amp it up and "establish" it even further, just pound it into the ground to a pulp. He had a really irksome way of making an idea into a bunch of jargonish gobbeledee gook and then act like "well, that's it! it's just got to become a part of our logic, our thinking, our thought patterns so that it becomes a part of the fiber of our everyday walks with the Father so that we can then prevail above and beyond those things of which we've been taught and to the extent that we can, with believing action, move out, standing upon the promises that we've been given in this day and time and as we speak the greatness of the Word of God will come into fruition in that every day walk for the Father. " And stuff. 1. It's an unseemly approach, I agree johniam - for want of a better word. Kind of buys into the same keg that's producing all of the last decade's "warrior" mentality amongst some Christians, the "I've got power and I'm not afraid to use it!" ex Way posturing, the x-treme for Jesus stuff. Trendy. 2. First thought is a bad way to phrase any of this - picture VPW in class snapping his fingers and saying "When you're really walking baby (snap snap) it's just right there, with real dynamic and an effervescence (snap snap), you're just walking, you just know that you know (snap snap)...that's it baby!" Sounded like Ginger Ale during a Castanet playoff. 3. "The walk" part of it all is pretty much the point and that idea relates well to what's in the Bible. Discussing those kinds of things - like a "16 keys" is fine IMO, reading records, hearing stor-eez, etc. It's not a big deal. Expecting that's what's going to happen all the time and the "walk" of power is some kind of 24 hour drill is nuts though, and produces the kinds of eccentricities and superstitions that we saw in the Way. 4. It served a lot of different interests to mysticize this stuff and give it a lot of Ooooh factor.

I'll throw this in here...I believe in the concept of "walking with God". That's what the AC was supposed to help us do, but "walking with God" implies that God is in the equation. If the first thing that pops in your mind is 16 keys or endless one liners, then where's God? The "first thing" in the head deal sure got out of hand. Some of the stuff - the physical indicators - who knows. I know there's all manner of things possible and would vouch for the veracity of what I read in the Bible. That God provides, I believe, now as then. That He will provide on demand and in a way I prescribe - no, don't believe that. I personally learned through the A.C. that all of this kind of stuff - "revelation", whatever - happens very quickly, very fast and in relation to how I normally think and act, much faster. "Faster" is a word that doesn't exactly describe what I'm thinking but close - when it's occurring it's like how you might respond to a gust of wind that blows up and past you. That's not exactly what I mean either but when Jesus said something like that in John 3:8 I can see it in the same way in the broader context of life and what goes on. Me, I'd never encourage another to not look to God, to pray, to expect God's guidance in their own affairs. Working that out in one's life is an individual effort. Any one who says they can predict it, demand it, produce it at will - nuts, IMO.

Sure, see your msgs. :)

Okay, Geisha. Thanks. Like you I see the issues as very basic and fundamental. People made their choices but indoctrinated sky? I don't see it. Basic issue in my estimation - VPW said he had God's Word and he chose to sell it for a price. If God is what the Bible says He is, we can't do that and expect to have a good life. I could have all the good in Heaven but when I do that, turn the Father's House into a Flea Market, I'm screwed. People do it, they don't have good lives. They want something other than what God wants. God is a "jealous" kinda guy, He doesn't want competition. People do that, they may get what they want but they die tired and diseased wondering where they went wrong. It's a lesson worth learning from. I'm not a saint, I'm just not stupid. I won't compete with God for dollars. I can say from experience it absolutely does not work and will not produce a result that looks like love, humility, peace, grace and mercy. It produces what the Way Nash of New Knoxville is.

geisha, although my sarcasm does know some boundaries, I wanted to clarfiy that - No, absolutely not and under no circumstances would I have assumed the no famous "david" record to mean it's okay to get rug burns with anyone I want and if VPW would have suggested that to me I'd have told him he was, if not nuts, fairly nutty.

socks.....I hear what you are saying, but I gotta tell you that this stuff is fairly common in the twisted world of indoctrination. There's no but in that to me. It is weird, odd, strange and bizzarre. I like to keep my reality hat on so I don't end up doing exactly what you're stating - I want to remember that a great deal of what has gone on in the Way isn't unique to the Way or VPW or you or I or this generation, the 60's or the 80's or any one time or era. I want to remain clearly aware of the broader perspective into which all of this falls. Indoctrination - that's the way the world works and by that I'm not taking it down to the "world" of the Day-vil, the adversary everyone's so afraid of. We're all being subjected to indoctrination and influence by other wills and intents. Stay vigilant to the BS.

but then, wierwille taught in pfal how "every woman in the kingdom belongs to the king!" Why didn't I ask for more clarification? Why didn't I throw my hands up and say, "I don't believe it"..?? I was very surprised to hear years later that some of you took that to have any significance beyond that record or that VPW ever used it in other presentations to infer that someone today had the same arrangements, and that any woman would have had that offered to her as the premise for a sexual affair. As a matter of historical fact if it's wrong, it's applicable to that record and the way he taught it. It would certainly be wrong today, too. But in PFAL, if you listen to what he teaches in that area of the session there's no reference to today or people today or it having any relationship to people today and in fact the last time I heard it on tape...I'd be hard pressed to take it any other way than I did the first time I heard it on tape, as a historical point that VPW's making in relation to David. Which if wrong, makes that teaching on that thing wrong. Does it relate to anyone today and can it be used by someone like VPW to support some kind of harem-at-large? Of course not - no. Well, he could, anyone could but obviously it would be wrong. It would never apply to anyone today and it also has to reconcile with many other areas of the O.T and the Mosaic Law. sooooo.... I understand that there are people here who say they had it taught to them by Way clergy and leaders, and that it meant something today................. but, not me and quite a few others I know. The morals and ethics of that teaching as it would apply to David were and are more relevant to that time, IMO doesn't have anything to do with us today. Never did. My point is I wouldn't beat yourself up too bad for standing up and doing whatever - frankly, I don't think you needed to. I don't think that's what he meant - and if he did and he came back later to me and said, Well, socks - see that David and that thing, that means that now, see - it's okay to..................... I'd have told him he was nuts. No, actually I'd have disconnected my brain and drooled "Ohhhh, right, yeth thir Mithter Wervuhl, thath rightth"

I mean, afterall, even David sinned. And let's not forget Samuel and the sons of Eli. It's just flat out odd to me how a story like David's killing another man to get his wife and is clearly a Cautionary tale to the reader Is interpreted by Wayfers as Indicative of God's grace and used as a way to measure how far out we can go and still be loved by God because we're God's wuvable wee willy winky bears with power. And thus leaving out the reality part of it which was that people got killed, more people died including David's next son and his whole nation suffered as a result.. Like the Bibl' says right rhere in the verse right what it's written - "But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord". That doesn't bother Wayfers I guess. Oh as a way to have a big dramatic crescendo in a teaching sure......."But the thing....that David......had DONE....displeased the Lo-ahrd, my peepul". But they don't give a crap about displeasing God because - I dunno, I guess they finally accepted what they've seen over the years,that they will never get any ministerial or pastoral leadership from their ranks worth a dime or anyone that will stay with them for any length of time and so they've lowered their standards to allow for complete failure on all levels and.... It's okay! God still wuvs us!! We're His wuvable huggable winky Way Bears With Power!

Oh yeah. That's the stuff. THAT is the stuff right there. I know you know, but Jimmy Reed played a Kay for awhile there. Harmony too I believe. The man was so good and I'm glad he visited from whatever planet he came from, if even for awhile. We could use some more of that and real soon. My first guitar was a Silvertone and first electric was a Kay, a single pickup, the "kleenex box" pickups. God, that thing made me cry it played so bad but I'd cry SO bad to have it back today. Neck broke off, my Dad hot glued and bolted it back on. Finally got a Strat and traded it, then aTelecaster in '64, then an LP gold top. Wish I had them ALL today. I suspect that Kay's on that Big Wall in the Sky. But y'know, things are to be loved and people used, or something like that and everything gives off something, speaking of the A.C. Back to the topic at hand!

Stylin' ways! But alas I was young. Having a "Harmony" in the home was another, although by the end of PFAL I realized there was no Harmony being handed out, not even a Kay for that matter.. I was a Gibson man by that time but heck, I could have used a Harmony for solo gigs. But again - fooled!

Sorry. I had another dust up with the same year - due to the fact that I'd been without A.C. for several months that summer my sinuses and ears were really plugged up and I had trouble hearing. Total drag. Even bigger drag then when I had to complain to them after the A.C. because I'd understood them to say that after the A.C. finished up each of us would then get our own A.C. Grad Maytag. I needed appliances and despite the fact that I thought they said they were green I figured hey - what a cool deal - A.C. and a new, green Fridge. You can imagine my surprise when they handed me that little green nametag. So weird, SO weird.

It was so weird. I'd heard about the A.C. for a couple years and understood it to be great, who wouldn't want it? There were a few running around the country that I'd heard of and all reports were on how effective they were and that the results were even cooler than expected. So I figured, heck yeah. I was young but knew a good deal when I saw one, even then. So I got the paperwork and started saving for it but had some questions once I started looking through the agreement for the A.C.. The information was so confusing and I knew that confusion was wrong. That was my first indication that something was outta whack and I probably should have known better but I had heard such good things about this A.C.. So I called back to the Way Nash in Ohio and got either Dorothy or Rhoda, I forget which of them and told them I really needed to talk through some things. They were very nice and asked me what questions I had about the A.C. and I hit them with the biggest one right off - why was it going to take two weeks to finish the Air Conditioning?! I'd gotten quotes for 1-2 days at most. from others and it just seemed like a long time.

Point well made WW. Humble - as a descriptor, adjective would certainly describe respect. Respectful before God, for let's say all the right reasons. "Fear" seems to be present in the Bible context we're discussing here for a reason, but not that we are to be afraid of God and what He will do. Not as if to say, I pray to God and fear He'll hurt me for praying to Him. He gives "good" things, so the confidence I have towards God is as the provider the Jesus described so well. It also hit me, the fear thing - that God could be said to be "fearable", but not from the perspective of one who is at "peace" with Him as we're told in the N.T.

Eternal salvation isn't a Wierwillian claim. It's a doctrine held true by Christianity, in different forms amongst many but the idea of salvation through Christ, for an eternity that lasts beyond this earthly existence isn't Wierwille's invention. You understand that - right? Incorruptible seed is a term used in the Bible. It's not an invention of VPW's research or adoption. You know that - right? Going to heaven and all hell can't stop you - the intent of God is to have all mankind reconciled to him through Christ. That's in the Bible and not a new doctrinal invention of Wierwille. Much of Christianity believes that man's sins once forgiven are "cast away", and will no longer be reckoned against them to the extent that the ultimate outcome will be to "go to hell". You know that too, right? Works need not apply - the Bible states that the reconciliation of man to God through Christ is "not of works" but "by grace" and is the "gift of God" to mankind, a fulfillment of a "promise" made. The conduct of a man's life - doesn't validate or deny what another person says or does. If God's intentions are His own and initiated and fulfilled by Him it's up to each person to come to God, on their own and as all are called to do so - and respond as they will. Or not. You know that right? If Wierwille was wrong in how he lived, that makes..........him wrong. It doesn't make everything else wrong too. If I'm wrong in everything I write here it doesn't mean that there is no Christ, no Jesus, no Bible, no parts of the Bible that are right and that everyone I've ever shared it with, taught it to or lived it with is....wrong now. But to answer this question - then, in that case, so being, in that event, then and therefore... Then it's wrong. Right? Are there prizes for the right answer? No - wait. There should be prizes if the answer's wrong. Right? If it were all not true then why should this be true, or right? Or would it be better to be wrong and find out that being wrong is right, if being right ends up to be wrong. Or perhaps neither wrong nor right are either wrong or right and something completely different is well, something completely different. Hmmm. Perhaps you could repeat the question. When do the prizes get delivered? No - wait. That's just it isn't it? There don't need to be prizes, playing is it's own reward. Let me amend that, into different words... Hope that makes sense, it's kinda long.

Well, it's marketing 101 sky. Look at Lynn - from time to time he does a public declaration to old Wayfers and promotes whatever thing he's doing at that time. He's a professional salesman. True sales people sell what ever's in their giddyup that week and whatever it is it's GREAT and you're urged to get some now. And that's what he does. He uses these opp's to remind old Wayfers that he's sure that the Ol' Man would be just as proud as punch at what he's doing because it's as good as the old and even mo' better. You just have to try it for yourself, come see and see if you don't like it. You be the judge. You just come and see. Soon. And bring friends with money cause the work needs funding. Now..................anyone who knew the Ol' Man himself and what he thought knows that he would not, in any way, tolerate deviations from his basic PFAL content. Never did, never intended to. Couldn't do it better, it was all there baby, just work it. Work that thing but don't change it. So - Lynn knows that. He knows that's how VPW felt. Yet he has openly lied to everyone including himself saying the exact opposite. Momentus, Personal Prophecy, deviating from the exact curriculum of PFAL right and left. VPW would sooner stick a hot poker up Lynn's butt than sign off on what he's been doing and never would have tolerated it under his regime. Which doesn't make either one better or worse - I'm just saying if you wanted to play in VPW's game, you had to play by his rules and his rules didn't allow for change in the doctrine. Period. It's incredibly funny that Lynn suggests anything else and is so transparent....well, it's just sad really. Now I haven't spoke to Vince F in what - over 20 years or so. But if he's changed his doctrinal platform he would also know that he's broken that link to VPW and PFAL. Where all the rest of these splints are - to be honest I can't say. I don't move in those worlds. I should probably not offer much more opinion than that if I'm to be honest.

Twinkster - I think of a splinter, an actual "offshoot" as a post-Way group that 1. publicly credits VPW and the Way Nash as the start in their history 2. continues teaching the same basic doctrine without any significant changes (although all of them I know of have changed a LOT of their doctrinal platform for better or worse but say they're continuing on in the same heart just like the Ol' Man would have wanted, or some such bull s--t ) 3. networks home fellowships together 4. Accepts money to support that effort I don't think I can practically or honestly define every one who does anything similar to what the Way did as an "offshoot" of it - although I suppose to some people, from a genealogical sort of view, everyone who was ever "in" the Way is in some form an offshoot of it, moving forward. I really don't care enough either way - 'nother 25-30 years it won't matter for a lot of us anyway - but in general as I read stuff here on GS, that's how I think of it.

"This reminds me of David. Saul wanted him to have the best "state of the art" armor he could have when fighting Goliath, but David hadn't "experienced" that armor. He stuck with his slingshot and smooth stones based on past success and it worked. If God is really involved stuff like that will work. TWI used to say "it's not true because you experienced it, it's true because the word says so" or something like that. They could have included "it's not FALSE because you experienced it" as well." Yep. A person's gotta go with what they know. A lot of the information Wayfers cling to so tenaciously isn't in the fabric of their lives. It's just information. Much of the non essential stuff falls away over time or changes. I accept some things - the distance to say, Jupiter from earth - as true but they don't really matter to me in a practical way. Whatever the distance is, is fine with me. The distance to say, the nearest gas station when I'm low on petrol - that matters to me. A variation of 50 miles would make a difference. If it's close when I get there - I care. A lot of my own beliefs are like that when it comes to my Christianity. When the rubber meets the road, experience is essential, vital and required. Wayfers have as much religious theology as any other Christian, and probably MORE if they do not want or need any experiential validation - Excepting of course that they feel like abundant winners, and operating All Nyne All the Time and stuff like that - but if they don't need any real-time, experiential, on the ground validation to believe what they believe...well, it's all academic to them, ain't it?

Inneresting Mark. Somewhere I have (or had) a study of the "qualities of the new heart" of a Christian. It's not new science by any means. It works from the premise in the Bible that we have "new life" and are "new creations" in Christ. That new life has a "heart", an essence which is Christ like and Godly that tends toward it's own nature and the Godly side of the road. In that it seems the things we read about in the Bible describe those things. Thankfulness is one. Humility is another. "Love" is a biggie. Honesty is another. These words describe the qualities of the new creation we are in Christ. These qualities of the new nature provide the platform for how one sees and knows God. The human nature struggled, our new nature doesn't. The old nature feared, the new one doesn't. The old nature reasons and assumes, the new nature knows. The old nature is at war, the new at peace. I would say that the "me" in that knows and understands his place as I learn and live. "Fear" of the Lord, of God, all of that, figures into that in that I am capable of having a grasp on who and what God really is as opposed to the external profile I would have looking at it mostly through the human nature senses. That side of me knows fear. I don't see that the new creation does although with awareness would come - well, awareness. I can see a glimpse of that now and I would put the "fear of the Lord" in that as it can be overwhelming if I see it as a product of human effort and comprehension.

Split pea soup - this is the basic recipe: (I don't use all the herbs but use the primary veggies, and sub Dijon Mustard for the dry.). http://www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1848,154167-242199,00.html I'd cook longer than that recipe online states, simmer for at least an hour or until vegetables are all softened. After cooking complete, remove the veggies and peas from the liguid and blend/puree them. Consistency is up to you, smooth and soupy or chunkier, whatever you like. Add croutons, creme fraiche, or sour cream for the topping.

Hi Eagle - really? Passed over here? For writing a book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine? Here? My impression of GreaseSpot Cafeterium is that if Wierwille buttered his toast on the bottom instead of the top it would be sliced, diced, researched, re researched, debated and ultimately be proven 1. wrong 2. theologically toxic and 3. insane. And that would be for just the first 10 years after which it would be revisited for the newbies, again and again in case anyone missed it. No flaw goes unexplored here and no detail is too small to warrant attention. Big stuff? Oh yeah. So it may have just been a hiccup in the flow. Dunno. All is well though and all who come to this thread seeking succor and solace will be accepted and given the maximum amount of license and minimum amount of abuse allowed by law. So consider yourself in, ticket punched! Welcome! I'm also concerned about the shutting down of our borders and the effect that would have. I'm sure few in politics will truly say "shut" down but the result of clogging them with more process- dunno. My position is that the TSA and federal government still doesn't have a handle with what it's trying to do currently and I think it's due to the fact that we haven't clarified what it is something like airport security is supposed to actually accomplish other than make sure that someone doesn't carry a stick of dynamite on the plane and ask someone for a match. It's clumsy at best which wouldn't matter if it didn't slow everything down, make flying confusing and costly for everyone in time and money. I am Hispanic, father's side all from Spain and Mexico. Still can't speak Spanish to save my life, have no accent other than West Coast Whatever, and get mixed up visually with a bag of Latin/Italian/Sun Tanned. In the winter I go pale but not Scandinavian white by any means. I have a beard, dress quite snappily and other than thin hair look about like the average Old Guy looking for his keys. Depending on the situation I can be singled out for lots of things. I'm not that as far as I know but I'm sure that in some Neo Nazi White Supremacist Citizen Pride Klueless Kluk Klan clean sweep of our coasts I might end up in Tijuana looking for cab fair. The lack of intelligence is a big part of the problem that I see in our security intelligence programs. I don't trust cops to hit what they're shooting at or know when to not shoot to be honest, I certainly have reservations about the TSA and other agencies related to "national security". Your idea sounds interesting, wonder how it could be administered?

Indeed. I would probably put gratitude, thankfulness in the list of things that dare I say replace fear, and the Bible appears to put a "thankful heart" high on the list of attitudes. An overwhelming sense of gratitude and thankfulness comes as a result of being mindful of the life in Christ. Humility. Through recognition of one's place in the world, with God and how we got there. Are getting there. I think, in general it's easy to understand as we come in contact with Christ and enter into that hmmm....paradigm (yechy word but it's a new year) that's put forth. To add: WW made the statement: Ok, the concept I was referring to is more often called LANGUAGE DRIFT. But you can see it happens all the time, as long as a language is spoken-a "living" language. A "dead" language doesn't change. This is an important point. "Folksonomy" in information architecture is where classifications of data are shared, more collaborative and can move and shift. As I've encountered that concept in my work it's reminded me a lot of how theology shifts. To a certain extent, the information in the Bible is a known quantity. Add what one wants take out what another wants, put it all back in plus any variables and you have a sum total of data. Textual criticism does fundamental winnowing. The language issue is more stable than a changing living language as WW notes, which makes that work more doable. Even allowing for differences and disagreements and gray areas, the actual content of what we would then generally call "the Bible" can be known and a baseline can be established. So - what do we get when we have a workforce of oh, I dunno, say 5,000,000 (pick any big number) workers of all the required areas of expertise, who put in oh I dunno, say 10,000 hours each (pick any big number) over a period of years - decades, millenia (pick any long period).....? I don't think it's the knowledge that's lacking - there's plenty of that raw data stuff, much that the average person with minimal instruction can access not even counting the millions of trained, educated and passionate geniuses working on it. And the work goes on, and improves, right? If Biblical Research were a NASA space mission it seems like we'd be building Wal-Marts on Alpha Centauri by now. I'm not suggesting that the work is done or that the conclusions on everything are clear but I do think that the work is doable and based on the language itself is more knowable and understandable than some theology makes it. We encountered that in the Way - where "apparent contradictions" weren't allowed to stand in some cases because they simply "couldn't" mean or say what they appear to....there must be a mistake on man's part somewhere (well, duh...) or something somewhere that if we can just dig it up and shine the light on it just right will SAY WHAT IT HAS TO SAY, "in the original". Anyway, yes, the Bible talks a lot about fear, but frankly I don't think the lack of fear is the root cause of VPW's direction or what went on in the Way. Some people don't fear, don't care, don't give a crap, for whatever reasons and never will. You can beat on them all day and they don't care. Some do and will get away with whatever they can. Fear of punishment doesn't produce doing the right thing in all cases, it can also produce avoidance, denial and dishonesty too. Lots of fear - lots of b-s too in that scenario. Just thinking out loud.

I John 4 has the composite statement on fearing God - this version states it thusly: 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. I have a clearer vision and impression of life through Christ that in it's purest form removes the conflict of life, the dread of death and the fear of God's judgment. I think we all know that this life can go in the toilet pretty quick. With Christ I have a view into God's perfect love and there I may be get goose bumps and chills at times but "fear" - no. Not in the sense that I do what I do because I know God can kick my asz at anytime. I already knew that. I know what that part might look like, at least to a degree. At that point I'm like a kid faced with an aggressive shark in the water. Same thing - I'm lunch, I know that. But I don't see God that way because He's "so loved the world" that He's "given His only Son", that I might be saved, brought to Him and made whole. "Acceptance" is a word I use for it that reflects what I read in the inspired writings of the Bible. I have feared many, many, many things in life over the years including God. Through Christ I don't fear God though. I just don't. The Shepherd and His sheep, the Way and those who follow. Etc. etc. Frankly I can't think of much I'm afraid of period. Food poisoning, some bad shell fish maybe. Funky plane flight. Bad news. Good things I'm not afraid of though and to me, God is good and goodness is swirling everywhere so there's plenty of good air to breathe where the fear is rare. The immensity of the "respect" part of phobos, the fear of the Lord is much stronger however than a nod and a tip of the cap. I really do believe, as many of you, that these things of God, Jesus Christ, God's passion for His creation and people, this life and the life to come - these are real things to me. When anyone enters into this arena to act on God's behalf - to teach, to advise, counsel, intervene, direct, pastor as with the Shepherd - we enter a very special place, "holy" and sacred. To "lead" or try to is not a casual effort. And anyone who gets mixed up in God's affairs in His name with ill intent, greed, to seek "one's own" they're going to end up s--t creek without a paddle. It always turns out badly.

Indeed, to some degree I think anyone who's honest with their investment of time in the Way has to balance the kinds of things you're saying there and come to some conclusions sky. This has to be done outside the "it's still the Word and the Word is true no matter what happens" paradigm. To a great degree I think that paradigm is the incorrect one to sort through these kinds of issues - because it disconnects the individual's experience from what they're evaluating, when in fact the individual's experience should be the one that they rely the most on. When The Way states "experience is no guarantee for truth", the individual ends up having to accept a given "truth" as in fact true, with no further means of validating or understanding it. In fact, for many Wayfers it hasn't mattered whether they actually understand something taught as much as knowing it, ie, being able to recite it from memory. So an individual ends up floating in a pool of knowledge with no need of validating, experiencing or understanding it in a personal way. Yikes. I've posted before the most distressing thing I remember seeing was a Region/Limb Boss at a Corps meeting who had "missed" a call in the week before and was desperate to get the "notes". The person with the notes was trying to tell him about it and discuss it with him and he grabbed the note paper from him and opened up his Bible, started scribbling and said "Just gimme the notes, so I can teach it, that's all I need"..... yeah, teach something you haven't put a second into thinking about, considering and weighing. Great idea, not. One idiot regurgitating the regurgitations of the previous idiot. But yeah, again - I don't see these splinter groups as having great impact when and if they promote something "new" and it ends up being pretty much the same as what everyone else does, in practice. Doctrines that are different maybe, but the promises of "power" and "results" have to produce tangible, measurable "things". All the feel good, it-saved-me stuff is fine but you can get that in many diverse groups and efforts including those that aren't based in a religious foundation.

U.S. demographics in 2011? These #'s are debatable but useful. http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html One might say that the bustin' size of Baby Boomers who (understandably) want to live longer, better and retain the qualities of life enjoyed by a younger mind and body are driving today's emphasis on youth. The want to be young, fit into their old size jeans and retain all the good of what they remember about themselves, knowing now what they didn't know then... I think of that every time I hear and watch a TV commercial. In the 50's and 60's it was commercially verboten for TV commercials to be loud, aggressive, intrusive. The read was that those who had money - the older generation who worked all day - wanted to relax, chill, be at home watching the tube. That's changed over time obviously - today we hear the recycling of older music, mixed with newer technology. It's a fascinating development, the way the old is not that different than the new and what's new today contains such a huge volume of reference to the BB's past. Yet I think the gap is there - it may be meaningful for the BB's to hear and see their own past relived now, seemingly older, wiser but still vigorous and vibrant - yet it's really not on the radar of the 20 somethings, who can appreciate it but aren't living it (or living it again). The Evangelical history in the U.S. the last couple hundred years is also a way to view what's happened - that and the various distinctions between Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism over the years. To me, the concept of "splinter" groups in the Way is a very minute part of a very small segment of a much larger picture we can view many different ways, smaller cuts of a small pie that's getting smaller every year. Without trying to predict the future I don't see their platform as powerful enough to differentiate them out of the 'crowd' of available religions, churches, faiths, sects and societies. Figure - Christianity has a basic message and a lot of storefronts all over the world. If "a" group comes out of the gate one year advertizing new! different! better! powerful! versions.....................there will need to be a delivery on the promises at some point, or it will fade back into the background of everything else. Look at the Way Nash of the 60's and 70's - if someone never "got" the results or had anything at all to show for what they were doing then they eventually modified what they were doing. Sooner or later, some modification had to be made. Even those who say they're still just doin' what they were doing 30 years ago aren't - none of these splinter groups are doing what the "founders" were doing in the 60's and 70's, doctrine has changed or been "improved", practices and rituals are different. Similar but very different. I don't think they're all bad by any means - it's a free country. I don't have a vested interest in them being good, bad, right or wrong. People do a lot of weird, perfectly legal things that only a few are interested in.

Much Merry Christmas to you too! Hmmmm, "Christmas Carol" - well, the "ghosts" serve as metaphors for the past, present, and future. There is no "Christ" centered message, true. I suppose it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's been a long time since I read it, frankly I don't think I've ever seen the entire movie of it or if I have which one - there's quite a few versions over the years if my impression is correct. Much of Christianity believes those who are now dead in the "flesh" are alive in the "spirit" but I took the "ghosts" as metaphors for the self examination a person might do of their own life, reflection, etc. I don't recall Dickens referencing "men of the cloth" specifically or making a Church versus the "ghosts" moral to be drawn....? Not sure about that but I may not be remembering it correctly. Upon reflection the Scrooge character recognizes that he can help the Cratchit family and by helping the younger boy he saves his life without which there would be an "empty chair" - that image remains strong in my memory of what I took away from the story - we can rationalize a past that's already occurred but if we knew we could change a future by what we do today we might act differently and thus make a different (and in that story a better) past that we will recall in that future. I have a statement that informs my daily life today which is somewhat similar - it's not an original thought but the way I put it is "The future has a past. Make it one you will want to remember". Mostly though it's a story. Doesn't cross my path much so it doesn't bug me one way or the other.