HAPe4me

Source- http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Karl_Barth

According to the wikipedia article on Barth, he lectured at Princeton Theological Seminary in 1962. That is where Vicster supposedly got his Masters in Theology, albeit I think a bit earlier than that (???). Perhaps he went to one of those lectures, or one at the University of Chicago in 1962.

This is an interesting note in the Wiki article too:

he made the point that the Church's willingness to side with anti-socialist and conservative forces had led to its susceptibility for National Socialist ideology.

hmm given that Vic liked the JBS and other neo-Nazi-like organizations I guess VPW did not listen to everything Barth said.

While not endorsing Communism by any means, Barth did not like the Church getting so wrapped up in its hate towards Communism and Socialism,

I regard anticommunism as a matter of principle an evil even greater than communism itself.

@Ham- with Weirwille's German background he should have known better regarding the German "th". It is pretty much always pronounced as a "t". I feel certain he did not spend any significant time with Barth. Probably a handshake in a receiving line after a lecture or something.

Btw, how EVIL is the concept of the "doulos?" Slave to the Lord in concept but slave to the TWI hierarchy in practice. No thank you. The entire concept, as I recall (having left twi 25 years ago) as it was taught and practiced, was counter to the dignity of the individual, made a mockery of free will and engendered mental laziness (since the doulos only had to follow orders, not figure things out for her/himself).

And even more sadly, many TWI parents raised their kids with the same standard of doing what they are told and not having to think things for themselves. Thankfully not all of us fell into that trap.

Airport security can be, well, "disturbing" anywhere I guess. In 2006 we took a wonderfully leisure 3 1/2 week vacation to Italy and Germany. At Denver and New York I was quite pleasantly surprised by the simple movement through security at the time. At the end of our vacation we flew out of Dresden in Germany. I gave my son, who was staying, all but about 10 of my remaining euro's, walked into the airport, checked our two large bags, turned in the keys to the rental car and headed for security with our carry-on containing my ditty bag, my wife's toiletries and a few breakable souvenirs and my cameras.

I placed it on the conveyer, and we were all smiles thinking we had plenty of time to unwind and reminisce about our wonderful vacation. The first indication of concern came when the policeman kept backing up the conveyer, running it through, turning the bag, running it through again, looking sternly at me the whole time. He motioned to two other policemen (both heavily armed) to come look. I could not imagine what they were looking at. Finally they motioned to me to come to the bag scanner. "Was ist das?" they asked me, pointing at the image. I looked myself and about flipped out, They had noticed a live .45 bullet I had in the ditty bag,

Four years earlier while hiking in the mountains here in Colorado I had found the bullet. I picked it up, put it in my pocket and when I returned to camp, tossed it in my bag. I totally had forgotten it in all that time. I had several trips to Illinois by plane during that time, dealing with my mother's estate. Nobody had said a thing in any airport, not in Denver, Chicago, Minn/St.Paul then, or even New York, Frankfort or Rome on this trip. Nobody said a word on the train from Venice to Frankfurt either. Now in Dresden, I was faced with three visibly alarmed, heavily armed policemen who spoke about 1/4 the amount of English that I spoke of German. I got from them that this was considered a very serious problem in Germany, and they directed me to an office. Apparently, not only did they not like me having a loaded bullet in a carry-on bag, I came to learn that I needed a permit to have such an item anyway,

They were kind enough to assure me they wanted to get this handled in time for my wife and I to make our flight. They called some official, a Richter (judge), on the phone, who gave them some instructions. but as I sat there watching them nervously scrolling through Word documents on their computer, I wanted to know what was the problem now? "Was ist los?" He turned the computer screen towards me and pointed to the document, written in German. "Verstehst du?" (meaning "Do you understand?") "Nein", I said. I certainly did not understand enough German to sign a legal document in a foreign airport regarding an offense I did not understand.

The policeman then pointed to the title and asked, again in German, if I could understand that. "Jah, ich verstehe". Now he went back to the files in Windows Explorer, and pointed as he scrolled. I finally understood. They were not sure which file was the English version of the German document they needed me to sign for the judge. He got up and motioned for me to sit at the computer. I scrolled through the titles and finally found one that matched at least my translation of the paragraph he had showed me in German. "Deiser", I said. He smiled relieved, and hit the print button. I looked over the form and learned that I was pleading guilty to essentially a misdemeanor for possession of ammunition in a secure location (the airport). Then I saw this would be a 50 euro fine, and I had given most the last of my money to my boy.

We solved this by having the machinegun armed policeman escort me to an ATM while my wife had to stay in the office to make sure I would not run away I guess. LOL. She was rather steamed at me by now. On our return, I signed the document and put the money and the document in an envelope which was mailed to the judge. At least we got our own escort all the way to the departure gate from there! Oh, they did also confiscate the bullet. I was ready to go home. Next stop Frankfurt, where I think my reputation preceded me, as I was grilled as they looked at my passport, thoroughly patted down at the security gate, and gruffly greeted by the attendant at the departure gate. Finally we were non-stop back to the States!

Seriously though, I felt very embarrassed, and I think the poor policemen pretty much were in similar straights. The were really trying to be kind and understanding, but their lack of ability to communicate with me caused a good bit of tension. We all made it through, and I have laughed many times about it since. I hope they too have shared the story over a friendly beer with friends once or twice. I wonder if I really picked the right document out of the lineup? LOL

well, I was never booted/marked, whatever. I abruptly stopped going, without hesitation when my best friends Bob and Robin were given 24 hours to leave Emporia when they objected to covering up the sexcapades. or maybe it was Craig's ultimatum of getting on your knees before him (male or female alike).

I could not leave THIS story untold however:

Another friend and his wife in MO were asked to no longer come to fellowship because after 25 years of going to TWI he was still unable to believe for healing for his degenerative eye disease. He was told that coming to TWI functions was a bad witness to the newcomers. Way to go Mr. MO Limb Leader, you made a real foot of yourself.

It is not his page. it says on it-

Source

Description above from the Wikipedia article L. Craig Martindale, licensed under CC-BY-SA full list of contributors here. Community Pages are not affiliated with, or endorsed by, anyone associated with the topic.

way cool! (absolutely no pun intended there either)

I can't believe after all these years I might have still recognized Groucho. You both are looking good, and big congrats.

Waysider- that picture does not match Gary C#$tis's Facebook pic. but in fact does match a different Gary C#$tis. your guy is Gary C. C#$tis, not Gary R

Gary's public profile on Facebook does not give any info as to what he does now, or where he is but as of 2008 he lived east of LA a bit from what I found.

"The reason that plane crashed and killed that girl is because her parents no longer stand with The Way International"

(paraphrased,.. but essentially that was their claim)- the heartless barstads.

thanks Twinkie. I got this on my FB wall the other day. His story gives a deep meaning to the words of the song. Here they are:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Choi-Sung-Bong-Fan-Page/234090876605159?sk=info

Translation of Choi Sung-Bong First Song Performance.

Nella Fantasia

..."In my fantasy I see a fair world,

Everyone lives in peace and honesty.

...I dream of souls that are always free,

Like a cloud that floats,

Full of humanity in the depths.

In my fantasy I see a bright world

Night there is less darkness.

I dream of souls that are always free,

Like a cloud that floats.

In my fantasy exists a warm wind,

That breathes into the city, as a friend.

I dream of souls that are always free,

Like a cloud that floats,

Full of humanity in the depths."

Adam Hirschfeld got 4 years jail time and 12 years (concurrent) probation. The dude has a restitution order of $4.6 .....MILLION. (actually it is a little less than that now, he submitted a check today for $251.000)

The judge started out with "I have been to this rodeo before" and went on to say something along the lines of (paraphrased)- "almost all these investment fraud cases start out with the 'guru' seeking money from family friends and church members. People with whom there is a shared faith. Last I looked, the bible says thou shalt not STEAL, thou shalt not LIE. Mr. Hirschfeld, you did BOTH, and even after you knew your investment plan was on the rocks, what did you do? You lied some more, you stole some more. When you had the opportunity to tell your investors that you had lost their money, you sent them false quarterly statements indicating a profit, when in fact you had lost their money and never made any for them in any month of the program. Yours is a tale of years of deceit. You owe these people $4.6 million dollars...that is a LOT of money."

The victims' statements spoken to the court were heart wrenching tales of the devastation Hirschfeld put upon his investors. Lost homes, businesses and relationships. People misled by this salesman who misrepresented his license and certifications He could have sold PFAL to the pope is the impression I got. As one said, the spiral of financial devastation they have gone through has impacted people far beyond the 100 or so investors. They almost all had thought of him as a trusted friend. A smart kid who loved God and the Word, and who wanted to help them reach their financial goals.

One said Adam had spoken of how God had blessed him so much and he was living the dream, and he wanted to help others to realize their dreams too. The problem was, he lied to them about his qualifications, and about his successes. He also told them he would not make anything except a percentage of their profits. It turns out according to the prosecutor that he and Tori got a little over $1 million from it, even though no investor made a dime, so there was another of Adam's lies.

The prevailing sense I got was that most thought Hirschfeld did not start out to steal, but his pride or whatever prevented him from facing up to the people whose money he had lost. Being "caught in the headlights" was mentioned a couple of times. Instead of informing his victims that things were not going as planned, (a risk many acknowledged they knew was possible), he told them things were going great and they were making often 8% a month. He coaxed more into the web of deceit, and urged some of the initial ones to invest more, quitting their jobs so they could tap into their 401(k)s. There were some horrid stories told today.

Speaking on behalf of Adam Hirschfeld were I believe his father? (I walked in after the name was given), Phyliss Giles (Tori's mother), two people from his fellowship (including the fellowship coordinator), and a guy named Gustavo Cal.... something who flew in from Wash DC., and of course his wife Victoria. They spoke of how Adam never planned to hurt anyone, how he loved God and the Word, and how he has turned over a new leaf. They pleaded to allow Adam to be on some sort of work release so he could fashion a repayment plan from his new business. They spoke of how sad it would be for his young child to be without her father. They said he was a good man and a caring husband and father.

The judge took all this into account, but seemed to rely on the probation department's report which declared Adam's business plan and its outline as to how he could make restitution was largely speculative and without hard evidence to point to its likely success. They had written that it seemed like Adam's new business plan was much too similar to the old one which bilked a hundred people out of their retirement funds, savings, their kid's college funds and their homes. They were concerned that following it was too likely to yield a whole new crop of victims.

Adam may not serve the full 4 years, with time off for good behavior and with some credits for turning himself in and pleading guilty.

Unless the investigation has found some assets, (unrevealed at the moment), the only hope for the victims to get restitution is for Adam to somehow become gainfully employed and make court ordered payments. Outside of that, they are pretty much limited to whatever tax write-offs they can claim due to the losses, or perhaps other law suits against some of the other principals in the case. I believe Hirschfeld's claim is he did not steal the money, he invested it poorly and it was lost in various bankrupt well endeavors. I understood his crime, which he pled guilty to, was one of misrepresenting himself and his abilities and being unlicensed to do what he was doing...fraud. Is that correct?

The Hirschfelds apparently own only a modest residence in Colorado, which is pretty much fully mortgaged, and therefore has no equity to draw against. It is in Victoria's name alone, and according to county records was purchased in late 2010. I don't expect much if any jail time, but we will see.

Well written, Here is an earlier piece she did: http://open.salon.com/blog/trilogy/2010/06/20/losing_my_religion

It includes mention of Kristen's book.

Snopes and other sources say it is indeed true

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/fishfly.asp

Funny stuff, Kit!

Colorado???? Chit! just when I was gonna see if there was a Twig I could go back to! Oh well, the urge has passed anyway now. Aside from Gunny, I didn't even know there was fellowship here.

How can I find the Facebook Greasespot?

Thanks.

here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=lf#!/home.php?sk=group_179441518750241&ap=1

I think there is a thing there for you to contact on of the admins to let you in.

my initials are HAP and it just fell into place after that. I have always been happy with who I am. I think my mom got it started when she coaxed me into this world of computers back in the late 80s.

I don;t know you or your specific experience upon leaving TWI, but for the sake of your relative, I agree with Paw. Go, be kind, and honor them on their day. I would nix the 666 mark someone mentioned, but a nice Greasespot Cafe t-shirt under my sport jacket might be in order.(with a tie of course)

oh god I remember the scramble to stop the bestiality posts! I kept trying to read them and you were deleting them too fast for me to catch up.

ha Cheranne tricked me by replying. I didn't notice that the request was a month ago

hey OE- I will try to catch Rocky on his Facebook page tonight and direct him here

remuneration? pffft I expect it has been a labor of love out of his and other's pockets.

Paw, it has been my pleasure to have had this contact with you. Is there anything we can do to ease this transition for you? For your most worthy endeavors and the care you have given others, you deserve a taste of freedom. I applaud all that you have done here

Awesome, and a big hug to welcome you back.

It has been a topic for yuears, especially amongst advocates for the blind. I believe I heard Prius now has an option for some noises, but the difficulty has been determining what noise people most often associate with being a nearby car. Fanbelt? engine? what is it that sends the message?

Anyway, no, you are not the only one to notice this, and a solution is being sought and perhaps legislation will follow if the manufacturers don't get it together.

Just the same, I rented one down in Albuquerque this summer, and was awed by the 56 mpg we tweaked going up Sandia and out to Madrid and back. We got the 57 driving the highway up to Raton, with the AC running, but my son sent me a pic of the dashboard reading 68mpg for his return trip back to Albuquerque where he played around to get the most he could while still maintaining Interstate speeds.

Well, as for the Property Tax exempt thing it appears to be based on being a church residential property, not for being an an educational one. Here is the link to the County Assessors office records. If you can't open the link you can Google- Gunnison CO property records - and get there from that.

http://qpublic5.qpublic.net/co_gunnison_display.php?KEY=369900000025&account=R008876

Ownership is by: Way International, The

Parcel number (the main property): 3699-000-00-025

Account number: R008876

Mailing address: Legal Department, Box 328..... (yadayadayada)

I forgot last year was the year for reassessment of property values (done every 2 years in Colorado). The county now shows the 129 acre main property value at $ 5,622,640. That might be closer to correct than I thought, it is up $1,200,000 from 2007.

I do not know for sure about them renting it out, but when I was up there last year, I was denied access. I talked to a few native gunnies when I was there, old friends, one of who is an exwayfer and they had not heard anything about it being available to anyone outside of TWI people for vacations or anything.

I think that rumor arose from a site which searched places to set up camping vacation rentals. They wrongly picked up Camp Gunnison from the word "Camp" in its name. Nobody in town that I know of has ever heard of any visitors who were not part of TWI,

I did verify that the properties (there are actually several different pieces) are all listed as tax exempt from property tax. The valuations seem low and outdated, but since they are exempt I assume the assessor really doesn't give a flip.