Seth R.

Since you and I have had time to discuss this it gave me process and the perspective yeilding insight, which I maybe wrong about but let me work it out here. As an infant crying. Pre-stage 1 / stage 1 I as an infant was pre-verbal and autistic (everyone starts at an autistic level and grows out of it, some don't they have autism) but as I feel discomfort I make noises, some result in this giant godlike figure appearing. These god's (Father Mother Aunts Uncles) they touch me and it feels good and safe, they feed me, they make noises back to me. But after a short time I discovered if I make a loud sound they come and pay attention to me, feed me clean me, make happy sounds to me. So when I cry my god's come to me, my god's here my cry, and it's magical, I feel discomfort I cry and my god's come to make me feel better. This is in some ways is on the level with this law of believing concept as taught by VPW and TWI in general, not really a mature self actualizing belief system. Once one arrives at stage five in their development hopefully they see in perspective that believing is not a magical law, we should have learned by age 2 that our god's are not god's because our cries are being more and more unanswered time for a new paradigm. What believing becomes for stage five and beyond is a method, various sources and means to getting what we need, no magic just people power. A person who develops methods of doing things is a kind of person who sees value in everything learned, and has made more mistakes then successes. They look forward to the challenge and learning new perspective giving skills. The stage 1 and 2 stay in a perpetual state of perfectionism and laws and rules, things are black and white good and bad, it's me or us against you or them, there are no alternative ways of doing things, it's how my god's told me to do it and if I don't do it that way I get punished. Well I've had enough of my own babble, NEXT! Seth

John, the reason you can't convince me on this point is several reason's first it relies on a single source and cites no other sources, the evidence provided is anecdotal, circumstantial or based on hearsay. I would be deluding myself if I were to only rely on what I think up between my ears, and only listening to people who believed and thought the same things, it's group delusion. As far as false religions, which is the false? The older one or the newer one? How far back do you want to go? !0,000 years? 20,000 years? 100,000 years? Why do people continue to use that worn out old, the value of the counterfeit increases with it's nearness to the likeness of the genuine, argument? Because the real essence of the problem is theists keep handing out lead and saying it's gold, they don't even paint it gold, they just hand it out and expect people to have faith that even though it looks like lead it's really gold. More archaeologists and historians have proven the Bible as an unreliable source for finding ancient sites and a very vague historical record, even the gospels which were written many decades after the supposed events cannot get the history right even though the authors could have at least tried. The gospels have no compelling proof that can be validated by historians of the time. This goes back to the china tea cup argument, simply put, if I were to say to you, "John, orbiting Jupiter's moon Io is an 18th century China tea cup." now assuming we didn't have a telescope strong enough to see it to prove it, would you believe me? If not why? Isn't my word enough? Don't you trust me? What if I showed you a picture of the tea cup my nephew drew with Crayola crayons, I mean he's a young innocent boy he wouldn't lie, and plus he used Crayola the best crayons, you know. Well maybe my story about the China tea cup is unbelievable and so it should be, but what if thousand year old religious texts were written about the tea cup orbiting Io, suppose whole societies sprung from it, wars fought over it's belief, economies built around it's belief, Children being raised to worship the sacred China Tea Cup, various sects formed around theological differences over whether the China Tea Cup being from the 18th century but mentioned in religious texts dating as far back as 4,000 years ago. Was the cup transported back in time to orbit Io, or was it just in the foreknowledge of the potter? This all brings me to the argument, should I feel obligated to believe in the existence of the China tea cup orbiting Io even thought I can't prove it exists? Or even better, does it make sense to believe in the existence of something *because* I *can't* prove it exists, which would sound like this. "I chose to believe in the China tea cup *because* I can't prove it exists." Anyway I've said enough about this for right now. Seth P.s. bringing up trust in god over what man does and not blaming god for man's ways is convenient smoke and mirrors for men who build religions and institutions of worship. It's an easy out for them, hey don't blame me god told me to do it, he's moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. All we have in representation in this dimension are beings of flesh and blood, and as language developed so did the transmittal of ideas and thoughts. Genesis may say god created man in his own image, anyone looking at ancient Egyptian and Greek gods would wonder if the translators have it wrong. Man created god(s) in his own image. Sorry for the grammatical artifacts.

Hi again John, good to see you back around these cyber-parts. I'm Atheist for sure, maybe a little Pantheist when I'm waxing philosophical but I definitely do not believe in god or jesus. For that matter I've done some research into some of the origins of the bible, and Moses well it blew my ever-thinning hair back to find out Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other cultures have had many of the motifs of stories in the bible, most notably the nativity virgin birth and death/resurrection, and Saviour stories. Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Hercules, and others. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc. The Greek God Hermes who was one of the "12" Olympians was known as "The Good Shepherd". Many ancient myths are source material for much of the bible. One of the other facts that is coming to light with information from scholars researching ancient myths and practices is that much of the bible is allegorical astrological myths, or stories teaching astronomy. Which may be pure blasphemy to most Christians, but they'll never know if they continue to use the bible as their truth and use the same bible to prove that it, the bible is correct in what it says about itself. Kind of like asking a criminal if they are guilty and they say no, even thought they did it, but you let them go on their word. The circular logic of using the bible to prove itself truly boggles my mind to no end. Yes I know I'm far from that wide eyed teenager that took the PFAL class in Sky Wood's house. Seth

Hi, thanks everyone for your replies. Caveman and I go back aways, 1987-88 time frame, right John? Thanks but, I'm not interested in what the bible says or man's opinion, and I'm a little surprised that you who I know have been through the wringer with this TWI babble about laws of believing, should wish to defend it. I'm also not interested in reading anything about it here as far as that goes. I'd like to see a scientific study done, forget the bible, if there is a power that anyone can tap into that issues the goody goodies of life on request I'd like to see it put to the test. If it's a law it should be testable measurable and definable. Other wise it's just an attitude an outlook or perspective or observation, but a law? Please don't insult my intelligence. Seth

Hi everyone, I'm a tech-head and a cheap one at that, Lately I've been looking to upgrade my PC hardware at home. I tend to do allot of intense applications like video compression and virtual PC work, I play the occasional action game like Battle Field 2 and Lord of the Rings Return of the King, and sometimes Doom 3. Multi cores are the buzzword, and I've done some research, first I'm not an Intel guy, so if you are and won't change don't bother reading the rest. I like AMD because 1) they innovate for their customers rather then just to innovate 2) they are a better value 3) My family owns some of their stock. Now here's the scoop, I've always had a price point of $300 for the motherboard and CPU since I started upgrading my own PC's back in 1995. What I do is I look at the current cpu and mother boards out and when the price and performance is around $300 that's when I buy it. Since there are fluctuations in the market and bleeding edge tech is to costly in terms of price and volatility I chose to wait for the hardware to reach that price point and it has always seemed to work. My latest research indicates that the new AMD Phenom triple core is the best value for a couple reasons: 1) The quad core Phenoms on the market are an older stepping called B2 which has a bug, the triple core use a fixed core stepping called B3 2) In benchmarks the triple core was on average only 6% slower then the quad core of the same gigahertz 3) The triple core runs 25% cooler then it's 4 core brother. The latest chipset to have is the AMD 780G it matters little what brand motherboard as long as you try to stick with MSI, ASUS or Gigabyte if you choose ASRock or ECS or PCChips beware. The reason I choose the 780G chipset is for several reasons: 1) It's the only chipset out that has what's called hybrid SLI support, it has a Video chip built-in so you don't need a video card. What makes it unique is that in most built-in video motherboards you cannot use a second video card in tandem to double your video processing power. With the 780G you can add certain ATI video cards and harness the extra GPU to increase your video frame rates in games like Far Cry and Crysis. 2) Full feature support for the Phenom processors 3) It's an AMD chipset, duh, I like AMD. Most of my friends are running 1 - 2 gigahertz single core CPU's with 512 meg of ram and Windows XP the hardware I am suggesting will knock the socks off of any one including me. What I'm suggesting is I'd estimate 20 to 30 times faster then a single core non-hyperthreading P4 running at 2 Ghz. So what are we looking at for price? Well before we get to that, I assume you have experience putting these things together if not get someone to help you, most tech guys like pizza and beer as fair compensation I however usually do it for free especially if it's sweet hardware like this. Since I think most of you will need more then just a CPU and motherboard to make this a successful upgrade I included my picks for Ram and a nice new case all for under $400!! Here's the run down for the PC upgrade I call: Project: Triple-Thread Total: $375.96 Prices and part #'s from Newegg.com Qty. Product Description Unit Price Savings Total Price 1 APEVIA X-QBOII X-QBOII-BL/500 Black / Blue SECC Steel MicroATX Mini Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply - Retail Model #: X-QBOII-BL/500 Item #: N82E16811144227 Return Policy: Standard Return Policy In Stock Mail-in Rebate $74.99 $74.99 1 GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail Model #: GA-MA78GM-S2H Item #: N82E16813128090 Return Policy: Limited 30-Day Return Policy In Stock $99.99 -$10.00 Instant $89.99 1 AMD Phenom 8650 Toliman 2.3GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Triple-Core Processor Model HD8650WCGHBOX - Retail Model #: HD8650WCGHBOX Item #: N82E16819103253 Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy In Stock $165.99 $165.99 1 mushkin 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model 996527 - Retail Model #: 996527 Item #: N82E16820146118 Return Policy: Memory (Modules, USB) Return Policy In Stock Mail-in Rebate $44.99 $44.99 Subtotal: $375.96

Thanks George this site looks like it has allot of potential. As some have pointed out there's not much in the way of detailed information. However I think I have the gist of the site, it's intended to raise questions about these things not answer them. The question can be more powerful then the answer sometimes. Seth

(Typo on the title I meant: Why I became an Atheist (or Pantheist), or How I learned to stop being superstitious and learned to love rationality) Hi, I have been reflecting allot over the past week, I often do that when I ride out of a bipolar episode, which happens around the changes in season. After leaving TWI I was in a state of emotional decay, and mixed up beliefs, severe resentment and fear. I was plagued by the implanted phobias that I had from teachings in twig meetings, branch and limb meetings, PFAL foundational intermediate and advanced. More implants from ROA's and WOW year, as well as Advanced Class specials and the Defeating the adversary class. I had a load of emotional mental baggage that told me things like the adversary is out to get you, if you stay outside the fellowship of TWI. (sidebar, you think VPW was a closet Tolkien fan? Maybe he modeled the devil after Sauran and he was Aragorn, but I digress.) One Class to rule them all, one class to find them, one class to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. So after being out for some years I began to explore other things, I learned very quickly about the methods of cult leaders. After understanding the methods I realized that anything and I mean ANYTHING that brings people together can become an abusive cult. I began expanding my mind, about quantum physics, and looked into Buddhism, I questioned everything, and if I could not find a suitable answer I decided that I didn't have to believe it or follow it. I began to awaken, I began to start seeing the world as it truly is, not what I wish it was, or even what people told me it was. I began to become an independent thinker a free thinker, someone who was open to all possibilities even the ones I previously investigated. I was becoming ready to grow beyond outmoded belief systems and accept life as it unfolds to me. In this process I had to re-educate myself, and as new ideas came up I had to research those and see what it meant, because I had been flying so long on what I thought was inspiration I didn't know what it meant to have a rational thought or take a rational action. The word Psychosis came up, and so I had to look it up and understand it and really know what it means to me and if when I use the term I'm using it correctly, like when I used to use the word moron I didn't realize that it means someone who is the mental age of 7 - 12. So calling an adult a moron is derogatory where if I called a 5 year old a moron it's really a complement. So what does psychosis mean, this is from the WikiPedia: "Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality." People suffering from it are said to be psychotic. People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and disorganized thinking. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behaviour, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the activities of daily living." I was surprised to realize that this defined my mental states from time to time in TWI, and more or less it was re-enforced by the various fellowships and classes and teachings written and oral. I felt caught between Scylla and Charybdis, so I did what always seemed to work for me, simplify, if it was taking to much of my mind away I had to decide to accept it or chuck it. The first thing to go was TWI's teachings, I said if it isn't absolutely crystal clear then I don't need it, and I would say everything I ever read or was taught from TWI raised more questions then it answered. Next to go was organized religion, then the bible. I practiced a primitive form of spirituality for a while that included prayer and meditation, and reading new age stuff, but soon after I chucked it and god. I was at a Christian retreat hosted by St. Joseph of the woods in Malvern Pa. beautiful place, wonderful dorms and people, great food. But I had a very disturbing experience there, the retreat master did something so hypocritical and wrong in front of a couple hundred men amd the majority just shrugged off that at that point I was done, finished. With spiritual leaders like this who needs evil people? With a God so uninterested in the world it supposedly created, who needs a Devil? One Class to rule them all, one class to find them, one class to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. Seth

Oh, I dialed that number and it said, "We're sorry but your call coould not be completed as dialed, please check the number and dial again." I think your Husband forgot to pay his phone bill. I love it, you said "God doesn't occupy time and space..." OK, then I guess that qualifies as meaning God doesn't exist. LOL, I know that's not what you meant but I couldn't resist. Seth

Dot that was awesome. Seth

I was wondering if someone could get a grant to do a double-blind independent study to find out if it's really a law, or just a lot of wishful thinking. As it seems to me it's more of a poetic thing then a constant reality. For instance, the law of gravity says simply what goes up must come down, period. Regardless of the observer, or the circumstance gravity is all pervasive on this planet, and it doesn't have any intelligence behind it. What I mean about it not having any intelligence behind it, is to say it doesn't stop working because it's not being used correctly or the object isn't the right one. The Law of Gravity is a law because it is a causal agent, there is no need to initiate or activate gravity in order to get it to work. For instance if I push a watermelon out of a window of a 3 story building is that the reason why it fell and hit the ground? No, just because I pushed the watermelon out the window isn't enough to "make" it fall, for that I need gravity. Gravity is such a universal concept that dropping a melon out of a window is synonymous with causing it to fall, wrong. Gravity causes it to fall, I just helped put the melon in the right situation, gravity did the rest. So I question the concept of "Believing" having a status as a law, for the most part believing as a law is anecdotal. Something along the lines of "I prayed for this or that and I got one of the things but it took a while, I really had to work on it though." or "I prayed for 3 things and I got 2, I guess my believing wasn't strong enough to get it." I doubt you'll hear a person say "I must be doing something wrong , because my gravity isn't as strong as it should be." If Believing was law *every time* I use it, it should produce results, period! Gravity always produces results, period. Thanks for letting me rant, Seth

Brideofjc said: Thanks for intimating that I am possessed. Seth

Curious how old do you believe the Earth is? Seth

Who? LOL I couldn't resist. Seth

OK I wasn't going to reply to this but I figured maybe I should, this is Brideofjc's reply to me with my comments inbetween: First off your condescending tone is right out of the shame and ridicule play-book a book which VPW and LCM used very well, even better then the bible, it's no surprise you are well versed in it. There are volumes of history and mythic writings that pre-date the Judean and Christian eras that teach of the flood myth and the eden or creation myth and the Saviour myth even the virgin birth and nativity myth. The virgin giving birth to a Saviour is a Solar worship myth told for thousands of years before the Christian era, the egyptian myth of Isis giving birth to Horus on the winter solstice (Dec. 25th) is one. Mithra was also born of a virgin on Dec. 25th was known as the light of the world, hailed as a Saviour and had 12 followers. Mithra's ascension to heaven was said to have occurred in 208 B.C., 64 years after his birth. Parthian coins and documents bear a double date with this 64 year interval. There is also the Hindu Goddess Devaki giving birth to Krishna. Perseus was also said to have been born of a virgin; and it is this story which Justin Martyr, the second-century Christian "Father of the Church," stigmatizes as an invention of the Devil, who, knowing that Christ would subsequently be born of a virgin, counterfeited the miracle before it really took place. OK, if you say so, you seem to be quite a manipulator yourself. I was never punished in Basic training, it's called Basic training not basic punishment. It's been proven by psychologists and educators for decades now that people learn better if praised and rewarded then if punished, but it seems you either didn't know that or want to ignore it. OK, you have reconciled the fact that a command carved in stone with god's finger saying Thou shalt not kill, is not in conflict with the same god commanding the same people he gave the same command not to kill to, with a new verbal command to kill those people over there? This is just being argumentative, and totally misses my point, but is rather illuminating as to the probable state of your mind, and that's Koooray-Zee. I like how you are taking my post so personally, becoming so enraged by it, it's really hysterical. OK believe what you want, the whole Christian system is based on ancient astrology or as some call it astro-theology, everything in the bible is manufactured by men. If the Library at Alexandria was not burned we would have had that ancient knowledge and the true sources of the bible sooner then now, but it's coming out from other sources and it will see the light of day. The ancients used these myths as teaching tools to help children learn several sciences at once, and it isn't clear now but back before calulators and computers man needed to keep much more in their heads. The study of the stars is a study in mathematics and as such correlates with navigation and the keeping of time which correlates to charting the seasons and times of planting and fishing and raising of animals. The use of mythical stories is designed to engage both hemispheres of the brain at the same time which allows the needs of both the emotional and the logical to be satisfied at once, thus locking into the mind of the student the teaching. Our system of education today is so different no body could recognize this truth, it takes an open mind to see it and understand it. If the Ancients were alive today they would be shocked that we are taking their exquisite teaching tools as literal historical people places and events, and their gods as real. The closest civilization chronologically to us that we know the most about was the ancient Egyptians and they used their gods and goddesses to teach advanced concepts, it was only after this knowledge began to be lost that they turned it into a religious ritual rather then a system of education to engage both sides of the brain simultaneously there by allowing there young to absorb the knowledge and retain it instantly. I bid you peace in your journey. Seth

Sometimes I get the writing bug late at night, and even though I'm tired I feel I must express myself. This is something I wrote for my MySpace blog last night thought I'd share it here. Ex-Cult reflections It was 20 years ago that I found myself in Eureka California involved with an abusive cult of the Christian persuasion. I lived with my Mother who is currently estranged from me, and couple a named Tom and Lucy. I was sick emotionally and mentally, I believed in the lies of the people who taught them and I used those lies to create a world of fantasy. Today I am an Atheist, I believe in people power and the energy that powers the universe, but I do not believe in a single all-powerful creative intelligence that concerns itself in human affairs, because I cannot prove it. For the most part the god described by men in the Bible and else were is a mythic creature of questionable origin. The God of Genesis takes allot of mental gymnastics to grasp it's motive, one might defend the scripture by saying it's the translators fault, I think the fault lies with the clergy. In Genesis we first have a creator god, who imposes one rule don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then says eat it and thou shalt surely die, after the couple eat the fruit what does the creator do? Instead of killing them it kicks them out, and puts a guard in front of the tree. Kind of a manipulative god I think, why tell them about the tree at all, and why if you have guards, why not use them before this happens? It's like pointing out a rabbit to your dog and then punishing it after it chases and kills the rabbit. Then the creator god becomes a distant figure uttering obscure commands from the clouds like, build an Ark here are the dimensions and floor plan. Even better it is speaking from a burning bush, or in the holy of holies. How about issuing 10 commandments one of which is no killing, and then tell the people to invade their neighbors and utterly destroy them. I have a problem with people who have come out of cults who still want to practice the same doctrine that formed the cult mind set. There are those that left the cult I was in who still believe what they were taught, with out so much as a single investigation into alternatives. The essence of the logic is to say: "Well Hitler was the real problem, but the Nazi doctrine and the methods of the party are sound, I still believe them and live by them today." to me this would be madness, yet there are some who are actively seeking to bring the third Reich into it's glory. The cult experience had a significant impact on me, and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't have some sort of flashback or cognitive dissonant brain fart and end up ranting to myself in the bathroom over a thing that happened 15 or more years ago. How people can still live in the full blown practice of the same faith that built the cult they were in is beyond me. I do understand that bad leaders exist and they can setup systems to trap the unaware but once the system is in place that reprograms the minds of people then it is the system that is corrupt not the people. So if you were to ask me which came first the corrupt leader or the corrupt system I would say the leader, and they created the system, but once I realized I was duped I had to look at the leader and the system. Once I realized the leaders were bad and I knew they made the system, I had the uncomfortable decision to either continue with a broken system or scrap it all. So I know that a corrupt system made by a corrupt person has no redeeming value, and trying to revamp it is much like trying to revive a body that's been two weeks dead. Seth

LOL, sorry. Seth

Probably until the next Ice Age. :) Seth

Aldi's is a European company that does well at providing a variety of products at a decent cost, I have one a block and a half away. Over all they have decent quality, however it's not obvious at first what's worth it and what isn't. I have several tips for people who may want to shop at Aldi: You get what you pay for, Aldi's has two lines of food, price and quality are reflected, the cheaper of the two may not be what you want to buy. The cheaper stuff tends to be over processed fatty, salty and filled with preservatives. Their fresh? meats are OK, but I suspect ultra preserved and maybe irradiated. Their milk has some crazy shelf life, good if you are on a budget, bad if you want preservative free milk. The ground turkey is cheap but when I was eating meat I used it and it was very hard to digest. Their ground beef is scary, but eatable, I mean the ?fresh? stuff is like their milk stays fresh for a loooong time. Allot of their frozen veggies come from over seas, the steamer bowls which I eat once or twice a day come from Belgium, so when it says to cook thoroughly they mean it! I got a serious stomach ache from a bowl of it because I didn't let it steam for 2 minutes, 6 minutes total. All in all you need to be a shopper at Aldi's and if you find yourself in digestive distress after eating their food, don't worry just buy the higher quality stuff it's still a deal. BTW I'm a coffee snob and Starbucks is my ideal coffee, well Aldi's has a new blend, that is comprable to Starbucks for 1/3 the price! The Sumatra is awesome and I have yet to get the Breakfast blend but it smells just like Starbucks to me. Seth

OK this is a site I stumbled on that really is confusing on so many levels, sort of like the blow off after a side show act. http://www.superheartliving.com/wierwille.html Rick Josey had this to say: "Do you believe the Bible is God's Word and is accurate in all its details? So did Victor Paul Wierwille! This Christian Hero not only believed in "the accuracy and integrity" of God's Word, he could prove it to you!" Is this guy for real? WTF? Who is this guy? What planet is he from? Oh well I'm going to look at more of the site it seems like a treasure trove of funny stuff, I'll keep you posted. Seth

I stumbled on this when doing a google for the PFAL class, seems interesting and I might buy it. Here's a quick clip: Page 53 Chapter 1 1971: I was a teenage Wierwille "It was a crisp, dusky sunday evening in late April 1971 when Cary Potter and I pulled into a slot at the YMCA on the east side of Wichita. The air was cool and comfortable the way it is in Kansas that time of year... ...There under the awning, wearing sandals and Osh-Kosh jeans with on shirt beneath the straps, stood Evan Pyle, beaming like a kid at a circus." http://books.google.com/books?id=bUeO6Ir2p...kOxdnM#PPA53,M1 So who is this guy, and who else knew him? Seth

Wow cool I guess I'm at stage 6 enlightenment. Thanks, Seth

Wow, just finished listening to that episode. I've been out since Dec of '94 so all I heard from '87 to '94 was a mix of Geer's cryptic regurgitations from his West Coast Cronies, and TWI party line like the *gag-gag* leadership tapes from LCM et al. So 14 years later it's very healing to hear what was shared, I hope you have more from this person and hopefully others who were top leaders who left will come forward to share their awakenings. I haven't had any revelation in a long time, and I think that's a good thing. Seth

Hi Paw, I guess 8 years and still *not* a grease spot is a good record. It would be interesting to do a visual timeline of events since the opening of the GSCafe. I haven't listened to the new podcast but I can feel the knots in my stomach already, the Fog years (as LCM, HRA and DEW referred to it, claiming that since the POP to 1989 when the trustees severed their ties with Geer was like a fog) was a very crazy time and although not planned by the HQ trustees I think it was well utilized and taken full advantage of by them. A loud "Huzzah!" for the Grease Spot Cafe and all the management wait-staff and cooks, here's a raised cup of Joe for another 8 years. BTW, I think I left once and came back twice. ;) Seth

LOL that was funny! Reminds me of the Robin Williams bit about god, he said something like this. "Do you think god ever gets high? I mean like when he made the Duck Billed Platypus, ok make it furry likes to swim with webbed feet, a ducks bill, poisonous barbs on hind legs, umm and oh yeah it lays eggs. Eff you Darwin!" Hahaha! Seth

Thanks that was cool. Here's a Keynote the Woz did for the 5th hope. It's in MP3 format, very fun and gives a lot of history. Saturday Keynote: Steve Wozniak Part 1 Part 2 Seth